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Author Topic: isaiah 14:12??  (Read 2478 times)

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wisdom

  • Guest
isaiah 14:12??
« on: October 19, 2010, 09:20:49 PM »

Who/ what is the light-bringer/daystar/son of the morning as described in Isaiah14:12? Are these adjectives of the king of babylon? Are they to be takin literal or figuratively I'm just a little confused. Thanks for all responses.
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Kat

  • Guest
Re: isaiah 14:12??
« Reply #1 on: October 19, 2010, 10:19:53 PM »


Hi Wisdom,

It is in article #9 as John said. Here is the excerpt from that article.

http://bible-truths.com/lake9.html ----------------------------

And notice carefully that the Hebrew verb eill in Isa. 14:12 is the identical form of the first verb eill in Zech. 11:2. Now try substituting the personal noun "Lucifer" in place of the verb "howl" in the two places it occurs in Zech. 11:2. Here as in many Scriptures, the trees are likened to people who are crying out because of the death and destruction:

"Lucifer, fir tree; for the cedar is fallen; because the mighty are spoiled: Lucifer, O ye oaks of Bashan; for the forest of the ventage is come down."

Such a translation would be nonsense. Or let’s try it back in Isa. 14 where we find the word Lucifer in verse 12, but notice how this word is translated in verse 31: Instead of "Howl, O gate; cry, O city…" We would have, "Lucifer, O gate; cry, O city…" Again, such a translation would be nonsense, as it is also nonsense in Isa. 14:12.

Kittel in a footnote informs us that it is only the Septuagint (which, remember, is the Greek Translation of the Hebrew Scriptures) that we find this word ell instead of eill. This word was translated into eospearos, which Jerome translated into Lucifer with a capital "L," which the King James translators carried over into English without checking the HEBREW manuscripts, which would have solved this dilemma. All Hebrew manuscripts have eill in Isaiah 14:12, and remember that the Old Testament was written in Hebrew, NOT Greek or Latin!

Well, there you have it. There ain’t no Lucifer who was supposedly perfect before he supposedly turned into Satan. Lucifer is a Christian hoax! What a difference a Hebrew "yode" (‘i’—iota) makes. We dare not LEAVE OUT THE IOTAS.

"For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in NO WISE PASS from the law, till all be fulfilled" (Mat. 5:18).

A "jot" is a Greek "iota" and in Hebrew a "tittle" is a "yod," which is the very smallest stroke in a Hebrew letter. And just how important are those little iotas? The difference between the absence of "i", or the presence of "i", is the reason why, we have the Lucifer LIE!

Now back to Isa. 14. With "Lucifer" out of the way, let’s read a couple versions other than the KJV and see how they dealt with this strange word ell which comes to us by way of the Greek Septuagint and the Latin Vulgate:

"How you are fallen from heaven, O morning star, son of the dawn!" You are hacked down to the earth, destroyer of nations" (New International Version)

"How you are fallen from heaven, O Day Star, son of Dawn! (New Revised Standard Version)

There is absolutely no reason to capitalize "day," "star," or "dawn" in this last version.

Here is how the Concordant Literal Old Testament translates this verse by following the Hebrew Manuscripts rather than the Catholic Latin Bible:

"How you have fallen from the heavens! Howl, son of the dawn! You are hacked down to the earth, defeater of all nations."

It is the king of Babylon who elevated himself to high heaven in the heavens of his own mind, and it is the same king of Babylon who has "fallen from the heavens," and it is the same king of Babylon who is "hacked down to the earth," and it is the same king of Babylon who was the "defeater of all nations," and not a "perfect Satan."
--------------------------------------------------------------------

mercy, peace and love
Kat

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wisdom

  • Guest
Re: isaiah 14:12??
« Reply #2 on: October 20, 2010, 03:57:14 AM »

John and Kat thanks, that helped a lot, may God continue to enlighten all of us daily as we fulfill his will in our lives
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Deborah-Leigh

  • Guest
Re: isaiah 14:12??
« Reply #3 on: October 20, 2010, 04:49:23 AM »

Dear Kat and John

My husband Abrie, our son Byron and I, met a couple this week end. Through the course of our discussions one evening, Dannie explained that he was looking for the Greek translation of the OT.

This morning as I read the except God caused you to past into this Thread, I saw the information that Dannie was looking for! 8) :)  

I emailed Dannie the following ~ This morning, while doing some Bible study,  I was reminded that you told me you were looking for the Greek translation of the Old Testament. I found out that the “Septuagint” is the name for the translation you are looking for. I also learned that it is vital to base conclusions and beliefs upon the ORIGINAL Manuscripts. I learned this from the following excerpt that was posted in the Forum in which I am a member. It comes out of the website Bible-Truths.com ~  Lake of Fire Series 9. It seems to me that God wants you to know this. 8) :)

I copied the article excerpt you posted Kat, to Dannie. As it happens, we also discussed Lucifer. I reminded Dannie that Jesus said of Satan that he was a Murderer from the BEGINNING and that anulls, and disqualifies any false doctrines about there ever being a Lucifer that was perfect and rebelled against God.  God has built upon this discussion, for the Plan of Dannie's edification, your post with John's, that forms a perfect link to the very discussions we had here in Africa over the weekend! I am so happy God is doing this for Dannie and that He embraces us all here reading and seeing what He is doing to bring His Word and understanding of His Spirit and Truth into a weekend in the African bushveld to a person looking for Him and who came to catch butterflys on the weekend where God has caught him ..... :D ;D 8)..to set him free from errors and lies.

How gently and expansively our God works and displays through us, His generosity and Love. No work He gives us, is in vain and in Faith, God makes us believe! 8)

Blessings

Arc
« Last Edit: October 20, 2010, 05:08:43 AM by Arcturus »
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Kat

  • Guest
Re: isaiah 14:12??
« Reply #4 on: October 20, 2010, 10:56:11 AM »


Hi Arc,

It is a beautiful thing to see the workings of our God through us and reaching out to others. It's such a blessing to hear of someone seeking and responding to the truth. Thanks for sharing that, I think we rarely see these inter-workings that are continually going in.

mercy, peace and love
Kat
« Last Edit: October 20, 2010, 11:56:16 AM by Kat »
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Deborah-Leigh

  • Guest
Re: isaiah 14:12??
« Reply #5 on: October 20, 2010, 11:11:00 AM »


Quote
inter-workings that are continually going in.

That is so true and though we may not be given to see such inter-workings, we can know that God is working all to good for those He is causing to love Him.

I often think of the guests who read these discussions between us, and how God has to be working in their hearts and minds too even if we don't see it happening!

Isa 55:11  So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.

Blessings
Arc
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E. Woods

  • Guest
Re: isaiah 14:12??
« Reply #6 on: October 29, 2010, 01:17:51 PM »


Hi Wisdom,

It is in article #9 as John said. Here is the excerpt from that article.

http://bible-truths.com/lake9.html ----------------------------

And notice carefully that the Hebrew verb eill in Isa. 14:12 is the identical form of the first verb eill in Zech. 11:2. Now try substituting the personal noun "Lucifer" in place of the verb "howl" in the two places it occurs in Zech. 11:2. Here as in many Scriptures, the trees are likened to people who are crying out because of the death and destruction:

"Lucifer, fir tree; for the cedar is fallen; because the mighty are spoiled: Lucifer, O ye oaks of Bashan; for the forest of the ventage is come down."

Such a translation would be nonsense. Or let’s try it back in Isa. 14 where we find the word Lucifer in verse 12, but notice how this word is translated in verse 31: Instead of "Howl, O gate; cry, O city…" We would have, "Lucifer, O gate; cry, O city…" Again, such a translation would be nonsense, as it is also nonsense in Isa. 14:12.

Kittel in a footnote informs us that it is only the Septuagint (which, remember, is the Greek Translation of the Hebrew Scriptures) that we find this word ell instead of eill. This word was translated into eospearos, which Jerome translated into Lucifer with a capital "L," which the King James translators carried over into English without checking the HEBREW manuscripts, which would have solved this dilemma. All Hebrew manuscripts have eill in Isaiah 14:12, and remember that the Old Testament was written in Hebrew, NOT Greek or Latin!

Well, there you have it. There ain’t no Lucifer who was supposedly perfect before he supposedly turned into Satan. Lucifer is a Christian hoax! What a difference a Hebrew "yode" (‘i’—iota) makes. We dare not LEAVE OUT THE IOTAS.

"For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in NO WISE PASS from the law, till all be fulfilled" (Mat. 5:18).

A "jot" is a Greek "iota" and in Hebrew a "tittle" is a "yod," which is the very smallest stroke in a Hebrew letter. And just how important are those little iotas? The difference between the absence of "i", or the presence of "i", is the reason why, we have the Lucifer LIE!

Now back to Isa. 14. With "Lucifer" out of the way, let’s read a couple versions other than the KJV and see how they dealt with this strange word ell which comes to us by way of the Greek Septuagint and the Latin Vulgate:

"How you are fallen from heaven, O morning star, son of the dawn!" You are hacked down to the earth, destroyer of nations" (New International Version)

"How you are fallen from heaven, O Day Star, son of Dawn! (New Revised Standard Version)

There is absolutely no reason to capitalize "day," "star," or "dawn" in this last version.

Here is how the Concordant Literal Old Testament translates this verse by following the Hebrew Manuscripts rather than the Catholic Latin Bible:

"How you have fallen from the heavens! Howl, son of the dawn! You are hacked down to the earth, defeater of all nations."

It is the king of Babylon who elevated himself to high heaven in the heavens of his own mind, and it is the same king of Babylon who has "fallen from the heavens," and it is the same king of Babylon who is "hacked down to the earth," and it is the same king of Babylon who was the "defeater of all nations," and not a "perfect Satan."
--------------------------------------------------------------------

mercy, peace and love
Kat




 Hello Kat.
Can you clarify something for me?
In the Lake of Fire - part IX you quoted.  it says. "Satan could not have offered Jesus all the kingdome of the world if he did not possess them". And it says in the first part John 8:44-45," When he ( Satan ) speaks a lie, he speaks of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it"

How can you say Satan could not have offered Jesus the kingdoms of this world if he did not possess them?  If he is a liar he can offer Jesus anything, he does not have to possess them, he was telling Jesus a lie.
   Thank you.    EJW
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Kat

  • Guest
Re: isaiah 14:12??
« Reply #7 on: October 29, 2010, 01:53:19 PM »


Hi EJW,

I can not speak for Ray. But I can clearly see in the Scriptures where what he is saying is so. Actually I don't think Satan was stupid enough to think he could get away with lying to Jesus/God. Satan is referred to as "the ruler of this world," and "the prince of the power of the air."

John 12:31  Now is the judgment of this world; now the ruler of this world will be cast out.

Eph 2:1  And you he made alive, when you were dead through the trespasses and sins
v. 2  in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience.

Now that certainly says to me that Satan, at this time, does rule/possess the kingdoms of this world. Jesus takes over the kingdoms at His return, from whom... if not Satan the ruler of this world?

Rev 11:15  Then the seventh angel sounded: And there were loud voices in heaven, saying, "The kingdoms of this world have become the kingdoms of our Lord and of His Christ, and He shall reign forever and ever!"

The kingdom of the world "have become" Christ's, because they were not already. That's the way I understand it.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

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mharrell08

  • Guest
Re: isaiah 14:12??
« Reply #8 on: October 29, 2010, 03:48:42 PM »

Hello Kat.
Can you clarify something for me?
In the Lake of Fire - part IX you quoted.  it says. "Satan could not have offered Jesus all the kingdome of the world if he did not possess them". And it says in the first part John 8:44-45," When he ( Satan ) speaks a lie, he speaks of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it"

How can you say Satan could not have offered Jesus the kingdoms of this world if he did not possess them?  If he is a liar he can offer Jesus anything, he does not have to possess them, he was telling Jesus a lie.
   Thank you.    EJW



John 18:36  Jesus answered, “My kingdom is not of this world. If My kingdom were of this world, My servants would fight, so that I should not be delivered to the Jews; but now My kingdom is not from here.”

2 Cor 4:3-4  ...even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing, whose minds the god of this age has blinded, who do not believe, lest the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine on them.
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