bible-truths.com/forums

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  

News:

Forum related how to's?  Post your questions to the membership.


.

Pages: [1] 2   Go Down

Author Topic: The beginning  (Read 5953 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

dave

  • Guest
The beginning
« on: October 29, 2010, 05:45:46 PM »

I need some confirmation of pointed in the right direction. I read somewhere in Rays writings how the Law of Circulation is incorrect. The Law says that man was a spirit in God in the beginning and that because man started there thats how man is going back something like that. Any help would be nice. Thanks
Logged

mharrell08

  • Guest
Re: The beginning
« Reply #1 on: October 29, 2010, 05:55:20 PM »

I need some confirmation of pointed in the right direction. I read somewhere in Rays writings how the Law of Circulation is incorrect. The Law says that man was a spirit in God in the beginning and that because man started there thats how man is going back something like that. Any help would be nice. Thanks


Excerpt from 12 Truths (http://bible-truths.com/twelve.htm):

TRUTH NUMBER 1

[A] "And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the Last Adam [Jesus Christ] was made a quickening spirit. Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is NATURAL; and afterward that which is SPIRITUAL" (I Cor. 15:45-46).

[ B ] "It is sown [first] a NATURAL BODY [a physical body which dies]; it is raised [afterward] a SPIRITUAL BODY [which is made immortal and never dies]…" (I Cor. 15:44).

[C] "Who shall change our [first] VILE BODY, that it may be fashioned like unto His [afterward] GLORIOUS BODY…" (Phil. 3:21).

[D] "If I have told you EARTHLY things [first], and you believe not, how shall you believe, if I tell you of HEAVENLY [spiritual] things [afterward]?" (John 3:12).

The sequence of God’s plan of salvation for mankind is most important—First is the physical and then comes the spiritual.

Without the knowledge of this principle of Scripture, it is impossible to understand what man is and what is his destiny. Have you not been taught that the first Adam was indeed a "quickening, living, immortal spirit," and that afterward, at the resurrection; his immortal soul will be given an ETERNAL PHYSICAL BODY? (Then there is also the ungodly doctrine called the "Law of Circularity" which teaches that we have always existed as spirits, and are now spirits having a physical experience—just the opposite of the truth).

It was the natural body of Adam that became a living soul after God breathed into him. And that living soul was subject to death (Gen. 2:17 and Ezek. 18:4 & 20). Even this simple, straight-forward truth of Scripture is universally denied.



Hope this helps,

Marques
Logged

Kat

  • Guest
Re: The beginning
« Reply #2 on: October 29, 2010, 06:13:56 PM »




Here is an email that further explains that we did not exist prior to being born.

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,4544.0.html ------

COMMENT:  Once we are born into the human family, we never go out of existence. Before Adam's creation, he DID NOT EXIST, but after his death, he still DID EXIST, albeit in the spirit that God preserved in His keeping just as He does for all that die. They cease to have conscious life, but they most assuredly "exist," else their life was of no value, and nothing would be carried over from this life into the next.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

mercy, peace and love
Kat


Logged

dave

  • Guest
Re: The beginning
« Reply #3 on: October 30, 2010, 04:35:16 PM »

Thanks  :)
Logged

dave

  • Guest
Re: The beginning
« Reply #4 on: November 01, 2010, 11:50:52 AM »

"Because, of him, and through him, and unto him, are all things:—unto him, be the glory, unto the ages. Amen!" (Rom. 11:36)
"for in Him is all created, that in the heavens and that on the earth, the visible and the invisible, whether thrones, or lordships, or sovereignties, or authorities, all is created through Him and for Him," (Col. 1:16)

Reading these two verses it would seem to me that everything was in God in the beginning. There are some who teach that man was in God, in spirit, in the beginning and that we will all return to him.

"All the watercourses are flowing to the sea, Yet there is no filling of the sea; To the place from which the watercourses are flowing, There they return to go forth again." (Ecc.1:7)
I thought I heard Ray say or I read in his papers that is not so, that we were not in spirit at the beginning. I know I asked about this but, it sounds like we must have exsited from the start.
I am wondering about this. Thank you
Logged

mharrell08

  • Guest
Re: The beginning
« Reply #5 on: November 01, 2010, 12:09:05 PM »

"Because, of him, and through him, and unto him, are all things:—unto him, be the glory, unto the ages. Amen!" (Rom. 11:36)
"for in Him is all created, that in the heavens and that on the earth, the visible and the invisible, whether thrones, or lordships, or sovereignties, or authorities, all is created through Him and for Him," (Col. 1:16)

Reading these two verses it would seem to me that everything was in God in the beginning. There are some who teach that man was in God, in spirit, in the beginning and that we will all return to him.

Micah7:9,

Human beings are not spirit, we are living souls. Spirit is what gives us life but is not our thoughts, emotions, consciousness, etc. Paul says that man was first made a living soul [1 Cor 15:45].

"All the watercourses are flowing to the sea, Yet there is no filling of the sea; To the place from which the watercourses are flowing, There they return to go forth again." (Ecc.1:7)
I thought I heard Ray say or I read in his papers that is not so, that we were not in spirit at the beginning. I know I asked about this but, it sounds like we must have exsited from the start.
I am wondering about this. Thank you

There is nothing that exists until it is created. Humans did not exist until spirit was placed into our bodies to create a living soul. We are living souls, not living spirits.


Hope this helps,

Marques
Logged

Kat

  • Guest
Re: The beginning
« Reply #6 on: November 01, 2010, 03:31:11 PM »


Hi Micah 7:9,

We know that the soul is the result of the combination of body and spirit/breath and it is only with this conbination that we have a soul that gives us consciousness. When God made Adam he came into being as "a living soul" when God "breathed into his nostrils the breath of life."

Gen 2:7  And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

It seems it is with this "breath of life" that people begin to have life.  Job says, it was "breath" that gave him life.

Job 33:4  The Spirit of God has made me, And the breath of the Almighty gives me life.

He also states his life is a breath.

Job 7:7  Oh, remember that my life is a breath!

It seems that Scriptures says that our physical life and breath start simultaneously. So before we are breathing we do not have life, we do not exist.

Here are a few emails, there might be something in them that may help your understanding.

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,4544.0.html ----

COMMENT:  Once we are born into the human family, we never go out of existence. Before Adam's creation, he DID NOT EXIST, but after his death, he still DID EXIST, albeit in the spirit that God preserved in His keeping just as He does for all that die. They cease to have conscious life, but they most assuredly "exist," else their life was of no value, and nothing would be carried over from this life into the next.


http://bible-truths.com/hagee1.htm ---------------------------------

God didn’t need to do anything after He breathed into him the breathe of life. It was the breath of life from God that caused the man to become a living soul. God didn’t put a soul into Adam; Adam is a living soul. The spirit of man, which God gives to every human, is like a light switch—Switch it ‘on’ and the light glows: Switch it ‘off’ and the light is dark, gone, dead. Put the spirit in the man, and the man is a living soul: take the spirit out of the man, and the man is a dead soul. Do you think that even your children could understand this Scriptural Truth?


http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,1675.0.html -----------

there is a spirit in man (AND ALL ANIMALS). Nothing can live without "spirit." Spirit IS life (Ecc. 8:8; Ecc. 12:7; Luke 23:46;  I Cor. 2:11; etc.).  There is no consciousness in our spirit alone. There is only consciousness (soul) when man's spirit is combined with a body. God retains our spirit until resurrection when He puts our spirit into a new body and we once again become conscious or receive back the quality of "soul." We are said to have new "spiritual" bodies, not that we are made "spirits."


http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,3253.0.html ----------

the spirit is not the soul. The spirit does not have consciousness. The spirit cannot think thoughts, and that is why our "thoughts perish" at death according to David.  Our spirit as well as Christ Spirit had to be reunited with a BODY before we or He would have consciousness again. Jesus was DEAD for three days, not "absent from the body" for three days.

God be with you,

Ray


Logged

grapehound

  • Guest
Re: The beginning
« Reply #7 on: November 01, 2010, 04:18:31 PM »

Na, but you might get an Oscar for best screenplay idea!
Logged

Marky Mark

  • Guest
Re: The beginning
« Reply #8 on: November 01, 2010, 05:54:40 PM »



Scripture please... ;)
Quote
Reading these two verses it would seem to me that everything was in God in the beginning. There are some who teach that man was in God, in spirit, in the beginning and that we will all return to him.



In beginning,the Scripture plainly states who that beginning was, ie; The Firstfruit. All that is, came out of Him[The Creator],Jesus,the Firstfruit.

Gen 1:1  In the beginningH7225 GodH430 createdH1254 (H853) the heavenH8064 and the earth.H776


Result of search for "7225":
 
7225 re'shiyth ray-sheeth' from the same as 7218; the first, in place, time, order or rank (specifically, a firstfruit):--beginning, chief(-est), first(-fruits, part, time), principal thing.


Peace...Mark
Logged

Shawn Fainn

  • Guest
Re: The beginning
« Reply #9 on: November 04, 2010, 02:40:32 PM »

That's a pretty amazing find, Mark. You've given me a basis for some new material to write.. Thanks.
Logged

judith collier

  • Guest
Re: The beginning
« Reply #10 on: November 04, 2010, 06:01:08 PM »

Kat, something you said struck a note. I have this weird (so i thought) quirk about keeping names of everyone I knew that has died. I think of them and they are always with me in my memory bank. I consider each one precious and will never forget them even though the numbers are well into the hundreds. Now after reading what you said about "God preserving us in His spirit after our death' maybe it's just something in the image of God going on with me.
Anyway I continue to love and remember them.
judy
Logged

dave

  • Guest
Re: The beginning
« Reply #11 on: November 12, 2010, 09:51:06 PM »

"We know that the soul is the result of the combination of body and spirit/breath and it is only with this combination that we have a soul that gives us consciousness." Kat.

I very well understand this combination body and "breath" is what is and becomes a "living soul" but then you say this combination, that "we have a soul." Does mankind have a soul as well as being a living soul? The definition of a  living soul is dust+breath=a living soul, but does that "give us a soul" as well?
I am in the understanding that from the coming together of dust+breath man IS a living soul and from  that "marriage" ignites the appetites of the 5 senses with all the lusts and desires that mankind brings into the world. So does man have a soul or is he a soul? Or is it both? And if that is so, please explain.
Logged

Kat

  • Guest
Re: The beginning
« Reply #12 on: November 12, 2010, 11:19:03 PM »


Hi Micahh7:9,

You are right man IS a soul. That was not the the proper way that I stated it, to have a soul.

mercy, peace and love
Kat
Logged

Roy Martin

  • Guest
Re: The beginning
« Reply #13 on: November 17, 2010, 08:12:18 AM »

Am I understanding right that Adam was nothing until God breathed life into him, and Jesus was Spirit before He became flesh?

Thank you.
Logged

Deborah-Leigh

  • Guest
Re: The beginning
« Reply #14 on: November 17, 2010, 09:02:21 AM »


................ Jesus was Spirit before He became flesh?


That's right Roy.

Gen 1:26  And God said, Let US (Father&Son) make man in OUR (Father&Son) image, after OUR (Father&Son) likeness: 8)

Blessings
Arc
Logged

Dave in Tenn

  • Administrator
  • Bible-Truths Forum Member
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4131
    • FaceBook David Sanderson
Re: The beginning
« Reply #15 on: November 17, 2010, 02:26:25 PM »

 

Gen 2:7  And the LORD God formed man (HEB: ADAM) of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

in the CLV (for verb tense):

Gen 2:7 And forming is Yahweh Elohim the human (HEB: ADAM) of soil from the ground, and He is blowing into his nostrils the breath of the living, and becoming is the human a living soul.

I'm not sure what you mean by 'Adam was nothing'. 




 
Logged
Heb 10:32  But you must continue to remember those earlier days, how after you were enlightened you endured a hard and painful struggle.

Roy Martin

  • Guest
Re: The beginning
« Reply #16 on: November 17, 2010, 02:45:08 PM »

Hello Dave,
Non existing as a spirit is what I meant to say. Sorry!

Roy
Logged

Dave in Tenn

  • Administrator
  • Bible-Truths Forum Member
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4131
    • FaceBook David Sanderson
Re: The beginning
« Reply #17 on: November 17, 2010, 06:46:21 PM »

What comes to mind is what Ray's said.  We aren't spiritual beings having a physical experience.  We're physical beings having a Spiritual experience.  I'm living meat...a beast.  That's what is described in Genesis and continues today in 'creation', 'forming', being conformed, spiritual clay, having an experience of evil, etc. etc. etc.  I started as a bit of meat and will end as a son of God.  I have no doubt which one I am closer to at present. 

That distinction about what we are is the gist of the fallacy of the "Law of Circulation" mentioned in the OP, and other theological and religious hocus-pocus.         
Logged
Heb 10:32  But you must continue to remember those earlier days, how after you were enlightened you endured a hard and painful struggle.

Roy Martin

  • Guest
Re: The beginning
« Reply #18 on: November 17, 2010, 06:56:47 PM »

What comes to mind is what Ray's said.  We aren't spiritual beings having a physical experience.  We're physical beings having a Spiritual experience.  I'm living meat...a beast.  That's what is described in Genesis and continues today in 'creation', 'forming', being conformed, spiritual clay, having an experience of evil, etc. etc. etc.  I started as a bit of meat and will end as a son of God.  I have no doubt which one I am closer to at present. 

That distinction about what we are is the gist of the fallacy of the "Law of Circulation" mentioned in the OP, and other theological and religious hocus-pocus.         

  Dave, I see now. This makes perfect sense.
Thank you!

Roy Martin
Logged

dave

  • Guest
Re: The beginning
« Reply #19 on: November 17, 2010, 10:49:31 PM »

Close to perfect sense. God is Spirit Jo. 6:24 and Heb.12:9 says He is the Father of spirits. I see what Ray says about the living soul, still, God is Spirit and the father of spirits, does that not mean that even tho He made man a living soul, man first started out from God (who is spirit) that man was spirit first, coming out of God, before He made man a living soul?
1Co 15:45  so also it hath been written, `The first man Adam became a living creature,' the last Adam is for a life-giving spirit,
So then man was nothing before Gen.2:7 man was not even a spirit in "The Spirit" prior to becoming a living soul?
Im trying to understand how man was not a spirit or a part of God who is Spirit before becoming  a living soul.
Peace

Logged
Pages: [1] 2   Go Up
 

Page created in 0.054 seconds with 27 queries.