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Author Topic: Jude 1:6 vs 2 Peter 2:4 vs Rev.12:7????  (Read 5612 times)

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wisdom

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Jude 1:6 vs 2 Peter 2:4 vs Rev.12:7????
« on: November 26, 2010, 07:12:06 AM »

These scriptures were used to show(among other things) that angels sinned in heaven and are doomed to hellfire. Can someone please give me insight on each of these verses, I appreciate all comments( please bare with me if this was discussed plenty of times, any links to rays website on these scriptures would also be appreciated).
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Samson

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Re: Jude 1:6 vs 2 Peter 2:4 vs Rev.12:7????
« Reply #1 on: November 26, 2010, 12:46:34 PM »

These scriptures were used to show(among other things) that angels sinned in heaven and are doomed to hellfire. Can someone please give me insight on each of these verses, I appreciate all comments( please bare with me if this was discussed plenty of times, any links to rays website on these scriptures would also be appreciated).


Hi Wisdom,

Firstly, The Greek word "Aggelos" usually translated Angels isn't necessarily referring to God's Spirit Beings or God's spirit messengers. The primary meaning of Aggelos is messengers, but can be Angels or even Pastors. Human messengers can be referred to as Angels or even Pastors. Revelation Chapter 12 is not referring to a literally physical War in Heaven. Heaven is a realm and not a literally physical place. Read some Emails copied and pasted below of Ray's.

Is there a passage in the bible that says that when satan fell 1/3 of the angels fell with him.


Dear Reader:

No, there is no such Scripture. However, those who teach all kinds of heretical and

unscriptural doctrines, usually use Revelation 12:1-5 to justify this teaching.

God be with you,

Ray

Dear Mike:  In Scripture, angels, messengers, and ministers are used interchangeably.

    Heb 1:7 And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels [#32] spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.

    Greek: #32, aggelos, From aggellō (probably derived from G71; compare G34; to bring tidings); a messenger; especially an "angel"; by implication a PASTOR: - angel, messenger. (Strong's Concordance).

    Now then, notice what Paul says concerning Satan and his "ministers"--

    2Co 11:14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.

    2Co 11:15 Therefore it is no great thing if his MINISTERS also be transformed as the MINISTERS of righteousness; whose end [eonian/gehenna/hell/lake of fire JUDGMENT] shall be according to their works.

    It is the false ministers (the "ministers of righteousness") of Mystery Babylon--The CHURCH, who are to be judged in this "eonian" fire along with their many millions of followers.  See my last Installment:  "The Lake of Fire and the Second Death."

    God be with you,

    Ray

> Ray,
> Thank you for all that you are doing to reveal God's truth. Let it be known that
> God has used you to change my life. Bless you.
>
> A question for you. Please, simply direct me if this has already been addressed
> on your site.
> After looking at a Greek dictionary, it appears to me that the word "aidios"
> more closely resembles the english concept of everlasting or eternal than
> "aion". I see that "aidios" is used twice in the New Testament.
>
> "For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly
> seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal (aidios)
> power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse." Romans 1:20
>
> "And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own
> habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting (aidios) chains under darkness unto
> the judgment of the gre at day." Jude 1:6
>
> I can see how the definition I found fits the verse in Romans, however, I am
> confused by its use in Jude. Can you shed some light on this. Do you see it as
> you do the term "aion", meaning an age, era, period of time?
>
> Thank you again,
> Sherri
 

Dear Sherri:
I have answered this question many times. "Aidios" assuredly DOES NOT mean "eternal." It means imperceptible or invisable.  It has two elements "A"  = not, and "idios" = see or perceive. Hence "not see or not perceive."  What can BE seen in creation attests to what CANNOT BE SEEN in God's achievements.  The bonds of the angels are not visible and literal physical chains, but "imperceptible" chains. It is very similar to the word "h - ades," which is also un perceive, hence unseen or imperceptible.
God be with you,
Ray

             Below is an excerpt from 23 minutes in Hell critique by Ray.(In regards to the word Angels or Messengers of Satan and Who are they)

So there we have it: According to Bill, the demons in his hell are angels, angels who sinned, and that Jesus supposedly told Bill that God made hell just for "the Devil and his angels." So hell was made for the Devil and his angels, but Bill then tells us that these "angels," are really demons, and that these "demons" are really animals. But the Greek word translated "angels" is 'angelos,' and means: "an angel, messenger, or pastor, however, demons and animals are NOT "angels, messengers, or pastors."

"Oh, what tangled web we weave, when first we practice to deceive!"

No, demons are not angels, and angels are not demons, and there is not one Scripture to support such a theory.

The "angels of God" (Matt 25:31) and the "angels of the Devil" (Matt. 25:31) are the same Greek word, #32, 'angelos,' and the definition of this Greek word is: 'an angel, messenger, or pastor.' (Strong's Greek Dictionary). Nowhere is this word defined as "a demon."

Although the King James does not use the word "demon(s)," At numerous places in Scripture the word "daimon"--meaning 'demon' is found. Example, the word "devils" found in Matt. 8:31 is 'daimon' in the Greek manuscripts. Various English Versions translate 'daimon' into "demons" rather than "devils." But "demons/daimons" are never, ever translated "angels." Whoever or whatever the angels of the Devil are, they assuredly are not invisible or visible huge, ugly, deformed, alien monsters, which Bill calls "demons," "chained angels," and "angels of the Devil."

Please notice once more the definition of "angelos"--"an angel, messenger, or PASTOR" (Dr. Strong's Greek Dictionary #32, 'angelos'). How in the world could anyone confuse the hideous-looking zero IQ monsters in Bill's book, with angels, messengers, or pastors. One could possibly get a few back-woods uneducated aboriginals to worship such creatures, but certainly not hundreds and hundreds of millions of educated Christians. If Rev. 12:9 is a true statement from God, then how is it that the two billion Christians in the world are excluded from "...the whole world" which are deceived by the Devil and his angels?

And remember that the Pharisees were the religious leaders of God's church in Judea. But they were not godly men or godly ministers of Jesus, but rather they were the children of their father the Devil. These religious leaders were and still are, "the angels of the Devil"--the "ministers of Satan" (Matt. 25:41 & II Cor. 11:14-15).

Jesus calls these leaders of the Church, "angels of the Devil," "the children of their father the Devil." The Apostle Paul calls them "Satan's ministers."

    "For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ. And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the MINISTERS OF RIGHTEOUSNESS; whose end shall be according to their works" (II Cor. 11:15).



Hope this helps, Samson.
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mharrell08

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Re: Jude 1:6 vs 2 Peter 2:4 vs Rev.12:7????
« Reply #2 on: November 26, 2010, 12:47:46 PM »

These scriptures were used to show(among other things) that angels sinned in heaven and are doomed to hellfire. Can someone please give me insight on each of these verses, I appreciate all comments( please bare with me if this was discussed plenty of times, any links to rays website on these scriptures would also be appreciated).


Angels and messengers are translated from the same Greek word in the Holy Scriptures, so scriptures that use angels are sometimes talking about human beings and not spiritual beings. Look under the headers 'Contradiction #19 & Contradiction #20' in Ray's newest paper 'Hell is a Christian Hoax' (http://bible-truths.com/23-minutes-in-hell.html). Ray specifically goes over Jude 1:6, and the same applies to the other scriptures you mentioned.


Hope this helps,

Marques
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Beloved

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Re: Jude 1:6 vs 2 Peter 2:4 vs Rev.12:7????
« Reply #3 on: November 26, 2010, 10:21:10 PM »

Sampson I am not sure why you chose the word messanger and pastor. It sounds like you mean a clerical person is a messanger.   ;D

As`Marques points out Ray refers to "messanger and ministers". I do not think he is talkig about a clerical person

A messanger brings you information and one who ministers does something in the physical to effect you. They can be in the spiritual or in the physical realm

The word pastor has been translated from the word shepard...ie one who pastures sheep  remember Peter was told by Jesus to feed and take care of His sheep and lambs.
 
There is only ONE Shepard...all the rest are hirlings....many are thiefs 

In the old testament the a@@ of balamm was a messanger who alowed his rider to see God's ministers who would have destroyed him if he kept moving in that direction.

In the NT some minsters came to Jesus in the desert after the temptation and probably gave food and water In the garden of Gestheme a messanger from heaven gave him strength as he prayed.

If you think about your life we all have messanger or ministers in our lives. I know I have been recused and things happen.

all brethern and elders help pastor and shepard younger believers. The whole Nicolation thing with lay and clerical is a power trip. I could see that a clerical person could be used to be a messanger but I sort of see that is more like balaam a@@. Neither actually realize what they are saying in a spiritual sense.

Yes God does provide teachers like Ray and places like this forum to learn and grow and each of us has to continue on the journey 

  (Rom 12:2)  Be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

(Joh 14:26)  But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

His sheep hear His voice and follow

beloved
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Deborah-Leigh

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Re: Jude 1:6 vs 2 Peter 2:4 vs Rev.12:7????
« Reply #4 on: November 27, 2010, 03:42:40 AM »

Hi Carol

Thanks for the beautiful perspective from your personal understanding that Christ is the One Sheppard Who lays down His Life for the Sheep. 8)

To recall ~ Ray expounds that  demons are not the ghoulish monsters that fictional theology believes and falsely propergate ~ they are the outwardly smiling, physically clean faced, kiss up to you false teachers of tithe, free will, hell and bondage pastors, clerics, followers and believers of Babylonian Christiandom who are as "angels of light",  yet to eyes that are opened to Truth, they are angels/messengers, of Satanic false doctrines of demons! :)

Blessings
Arc
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cherokee

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Re: Jude 1:6 vs 2 Peter 2:4 vs Rev.12:7????
« Reply #5 on: November 27, 2010, 09:59:42 AM »

Here is another email to Ray that should help.

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,6581.0.html

Mr. Smith;
     In your 2/3/2008 audio bible study on the BT website you said there was no word in the bible that depicts the true meaning of "eternal". The only word I could come up with is used in Rom 1:20 that describes God's "ETERNAL power and Godhead..."  AIDIOS is the correct Greek word for eternal.
 
Hope this helps,
Ken from Brazil


Dear Ken:  Oh really?  And who told you that?

The word translated "eternal" in Rom. 1:20 and Jude 6 is "aidion."  The "a" is a prefix meaning "un" or "no" or "not."  It is a negative just as in the word "hades" which Dr. Strong correctly informs us is made up of  "G1 (as a negative particle) and G1492; properly unseen"  UN-seen, or NOT-seen--IMperceptible.

Well, aidion is very close to being the same word and means "IMperceptible, and this is precisely what the context of these two Scriptural usages prove.

Rom 1:19 Because that which may be known [something perceivable] of God is manifest [made perceivable] in them; for God hath showed [made perceivable] it unto them.

Rom 1:20 For the invisible [IMperceivable] things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made [what is NOT perceivable, NOT seen, CAN be seen by things that ARE SEEN, namely "the THINGS that are made], even His eternal power [yes, "even His UNseen, NOT seen, IMperceptable power" can BE SEEN by things that CAN BE SEEN, namely "the things that are made] and Godhead; so that they are without excuse"

There is the contextual proof of the word, plain and simple. Now Jude:

Jud 1:6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting [Gk: 'aidion'] chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.

 Once more, let's look at the context:  Notice that these angels are "reserved."  Here is the definition of "reserve"--"1. To keep back, as for FUTURE USE or for a special purpose" (American Heritage College Dictionary).  How can some that is "everlasting" as the King James suggests, be "kept back for FUTURE USE?"  That is nonsense! That is terrible translating.   Other translations use the words "to" and "for" in place of the King James "unto the judgment." In other words these restraining chains last only "till" "to" or "for" another day.  These chains are not "everlasting," but rather they are "imperceptible."  How does one "chain" a spirit being with "visible iron chains made with matter?"

Hope this helps your understanding. I have been answering this same question  on aiodion for years now.

God be with you,

Ray


Blessings,
Suzie
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Beloved

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Re: Jude 1:6 vs 2 Peter 2:4 vs Rev.12:7????
« Reply #6 on: November 27, 2010, 11:51:59 AM »

Yes Debora We need the Spirit of Discenment of the spiriutal and the physical.

None the less my favorite thing spoken in regard to aggelos is when jesus said

(Mat 18:10)  Take heed that ye despise not one of these little ones; for I say unto you, That in heaven their angels do always behold the face of my Father which is in heaven.

(Mat 18:11)  For the Son of man is come to save that which was lost.

When you read the rest of this chapter, the so called angels of light that you refer to that snare and entrap should take notice.

beloved
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Deborah-Leigh

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Re: Jude 1:6 vs 2 Peter 2:4 vs Rev.12:7????
« Reply #7 on: November 27, 2010, 12:38:56 PM »

Sure truth, beloved.

Great find Suzie!

Here’s a spiritual match for Jude 1 :6 that confirms the doctrine Ray expounds.

2Pe 2:4  For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;

Blessings
Deborah
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Deborah-Leigh

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Re: Jude 1:6 vs 2 Peter 2:4 vs Rev.12:7????
« Reply #8 on: November 27, 2010, 01:33:03 PM »

Carol ~

The rest of the chapter Mat 18: 12, you referenced, is matched, in follow up of 2 Pet 2:4. Both are the Word of God and both make the same point. :)

Blessings
Arc
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Samson

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Re: Jude 1:6 vs 2 Peter 2:4 vs Rev.12:7????
« Reply #9 on: November 29, 2010, 09:52:51 PM »

Hi Carol,

Sampson I am not sure why you chose the word messanger and pastor. It sounds like you mean a clerical person is a messanger.   Grin (Beloved's Question to Samson)

Sorry for a late response to Your question. I worked 12 Hours Thursday & Friday, plus ruined the small refrigerator at work by attempting to Defrost it, it had 2 1/2 buckets of built up ice and was probably on it's way out, so I wasn't in a decent Emotional and Mental disposition for answering anything.

Firstly, I concede that the word "Pastor"(Shepherd) applies to the Great & Fine Shepherd, Christ Jesus; Heb. 13:20; John. 10:11; Matt. 9:36. In regards to the Greek Word "Aggelos." personally I don't usually use the term "Pastor" in reference to that word. Actually, it was from Ray's information that I expressed that understanding. Since Wisdom "seemed" to equate the Angels from Jude, 2Peter & Rev 12 as Bad Angel Spiritual Beings synonymous with "Demons," I was attempting to show that the Angels mentioned in those passages were Human Messengers that bring Blasphemous and Heretical teachings. This is typified by Christendoms Ministers(Pastors) who deliver a false message, so they are Messengers of false teachings, knowingly or unknowingly. The word Shepherd comes from the Greek Word " Poimen," used Metaphorically as "Pastors," but Shepherd is the exact meaning; Acts. 20:28; Acts. 20:17. This is a service committed to Elders(GK-Presbyteroi, derived from Presbyteros) and Overseers(Gk-Episkopoi derived from Episkopos, often translated "Bishop"). Before I Post some excerpts of Rays from The Critique of 23 Minutes in Hell regarding His use of "Pastor," I will define a few meanings in the next paragraph regarding Overseer, Elder(older Men) first.

1) Overseer: From the Greek word Episkopos means " one who watches over; guardian, scout." Episkope- means inspection or Office of Oversight(Luke. 19:44; 1Peter. 2:12). From a Greek Lexicon By Liddell & Scott, Ninth Edition, 1968, pg. 657. The Verb forms Episkopeo & Episkeptomai mean " to look upon, to consider, have regard to something or someone, used as visit to sick friends. From G. Kittel's Theological Dictionary of the New Testament, pp. 600-602, 606.

2) Elder(Older Men): Presbyteroi, Presbyteros. Episkopos(Overseer) describes the fundamental responsibility this position entails, whereas Presbyteros indicates the maturity of those described. So Presbyteros indicates the mature qualities of the one appointed and Episkopos, the duties inherent with the appointment.

     Excerpt's from Ray(23 Minutes in Hell Critique regarding use of the word "Pastor" & "Messenger" in blue Color for Your convenience).

MESSENGERS: Only once in Scripture do we read of "a messenger of Satan" (II Cor. 12:7). Messenger is here translated from Dr. Strong's #32 'angelos' which means: "a messenger, especially an angel, a pastor." Some Versions translate II Cor. 12:7 as "an angel of Satan" (Moffatt Translation); "an angel of Satan" (Emphatic Diaglott); "one of Satan's angels" (Phillip's Modern English New Testament). The Greek word 'angelos' has three meanings: "angel, messenger, and pastor." "Demon" is NOT a definition of angelos!

Of the hundreds and hundreds of different translations of the Scriptures, I know of none that translated the word "angelos" as "demon." And so we have conclusive proof from the Scriptures "the Devil's angels" are mortal men. The false prophet of Acts 13:6; the Pharisees whom Jesus called "children of the Wicked one" in Matt. 13:38; those Pharisees whom Jesus said had the Devil for their father in John 8:44; Satan's "ministers of righteousness" in II Cor. 11:14-15); are all human, mortal men, not spirits--despicable, disgusting, dirty, demons!

Now then, how many of my readers believe that Bill's demon pictured above, or the group of demons pictured above are "pastors" or "ministers of the gospel?" Probably none of you. An "angelos' is an "angel," a "messenger," or a "pastor." So now let's answer the question: Do the angels/messengers/pastors of the Devil look like, [1] evil, ugly, animalistic, spirit demons with Zero IQ's? or [2] non-descript, invisible spirits, or [3] pleasant-looking, mortal, humans? Nowhere in Scriptures do we ever find a description of demons as Bill presents in his book. Such creatures are fraudulent deceptions of carnal-minded deceivers.

Notice the word PASTOR mentioned in Paragraphs 1 & 3. Ray equates Christendoms Ministers as "PASTORS," A "MESSENGER." (CAPS ARE MINE FOR EMPHASIS).

  Below some more excerpts from Ray showing the distinction between Angels & Demons.

You won't find the word "demon" in the King James Version. The Greek word translated "devils" in the King James is, daimon, and means "a demon or super natural spirit of a bad nature," Strong's Greek Dictionary). "Devils" should be translated "demons" seeing that there is only one Devil--Satan (Rev. 12:9).

Demons can think and they can speak with human voices, as witnessed by those cast out by Jesus and the apostles. There alone is proof that Bill's assertion that demons have "zero IQ" is a fabricated crock. No one has ever seen a real demon as they are spirit, and they are not visible. We are never told that we might on occasion entertain "demons unaware," as we might entertain angels (Heb. 3:2).

"Angels," however, can be either visible or invisible, and are often called "men." Sometimes they seem to be manifested as physical men (Acts 10:3 & 30 and Luke 24:4), but in reality they are actually spirit beings. Mortal men when used of God are called angels or messengers which, like all men, are destined to die. However, spirit angels in Heaven can never die:

Therefore, "angels" can be [1] immortal spirits from God in Heaven, (as with the angel that was first invisible to Balaam, but then later was made visible, Num. 22:31), or [2] if needed, they can manifest themselves to appear as normal humans, but with a radiance that shows they are supernatural beings which are only taking on human form (See Judges 13:6), or [3] they can so perfectly make themselves visible and in human form so that anyone would be unaware that they are really angels from Heaven (See Heb. 13:2 above).

When mortal men are used in the capacity of an agent/messenger for God or any other authority. they are usually called in Hebrew, malak, translated "angel" 100+ times. All references to "angels" in the Old Testament are from the Hebrew #4397, 'malak'--whose definition is "a messenger (especially of God), that is, an angel (also, a prophet, priest or teacher): ambassador, angel, king, messenger" (Strong's Hebrew Dictionary).

"Malaks" can be invisible spirit angels, spirit angels manifested to appear as radiant, glowing men, spirit angels made to look like perfectly normal men with no supernatural radiance, or mortal men themselves are called "malak" when used in the capacity of a messenger.

Context usually dictates whether a "malak" is a spirit or a mortal man. When it appears that a spirit being sent from God is in view, malak is almost always translated "angel." However, when a mortal man is being used to convey a message from either God or a person of rank, malak is usually translated "messenger."

One exception is Malachi 3:1 where malak is translated, "My messenger..." with a lower case "m," while the second time we have, "...the Messenger of the covenant in Whom..." "Messenger" has a capital "M," and "Whom" has a capital "W," which might suggest that this Messenger is Jesus.

Carol, I hope this answers Your question and the above excerpts are meant for Forum Member Wisdom, too.

                         Kind Regards, Samson
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Beloved

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Re: Jude 1:6 vs 2 Peter 2:4 vs Rev.12:7????
« Reply #10 on: November 30, 2010, 02:17:27 AM »

Pastors/sheherd  is an old testament term

H7462 רעה râ‛âh  raw-aw'
A primitive root; to tend a flock, that is, pasture it; intransitively to graze (literally or figuratively); generally to rule; by extension to associate with (as a friend): -  X break, companion, keep company with, devour, eat up, evil entreat, feed, use as a friend, make friendship with, herdman, keep [sheep] (-er), pastor, + shearing house, shepherd, wander, waste.


(Jer 23:1)  Woe to shepherds destroying, And scattering the flock of My pasture, An affirmation of Jehovah.

(Jer 23:2)  Therefore, thus said Jehovah, God of Israel, Against the shepherds who feed My people, Ye have scattered My flock, and drive them away, And have not inspected them, Lo, I am charging on you the evil of your doings, An affirmation of Jehovah.

(Jer 23:3)  And I do gather the remnant of My flock Out of all the lands whither I drove them, And have brought them back unto their fold, And they have been fruitful, and multiplied.

There is only one reference to pastor in NT as you point out
 
(Eph 4:11)  and He gave some as apostles, and some as prophets, and some as proclaimers of good news, and some as shepherds and teachers,

(Eph 4:12)  unto the perfecting of the saints, for a work of ministration, for a building up of the body of the Christ,

Peter points out who these sheperds are

(1Pe 5:1)  "Elders" who are among you, I exhort, who am a fellow-elder, and a witness of the sufferings of the Christ, and of the glory about to be revealed a partaker,

(1Pe 5:2)  feed the flock of God that is among you, overseeing not constrainedly, but willingly, neither for filthy lucre, but of a ready mind,

(1Pe 5:3)  neither as exercising lordship over the heritages, but patterns becoming of the flock,

(1Pe 5:4)  and at the manifestation of the chief Shepherd, ye shall receive the unfading crown of glory.

Paul also confirms this`

(Act 20:17)  And from Miletus, having sent to Ephesus, he called for the elders of the assembly,
(Act 20:28)  `Take heed, therefore, to yourselves, and to all the flock, among which the Holy Spirit made you overseers, to feed the assembly of God that He acquired through His own blood,

(Act 20:29)  for I have known this, that there shall enter in, after my departing, grievous wolves unto you, not sparing the flock,

(Act 20:30)  and of your own selves there shall arise men, speaking perverse things, to draw away the disciples after them.
 
so yes there are good and bad undershepards / Elders that act as messangers/ malak/angels.  

My point in posting is that this term pastor clearly has more "clerical" meaning to most people, it is therefore more selective, than the term messanger.

Does that means that todays apostles, prophets, evangelists and teachers
cannot be messangers or angels also?

I do understand that the greek word angellos does have in its route meaninge : to lead, to drove and bring tidings and I just see that this term has a broader meaning.  It is not about the Who but the Message sent

Religion has already taken this term way and mesmerised it. they  visulize it out of context and as winged persons and chubby babies and have even commericialized it.  

We should be listening for His voice ourselves and who He sends

beloved
« Last Edit: November 30, 2010, 11:38:00 AM by Beloved »
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Deborah-Leigh

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Re: Jude 1:6 vs 2 Peter 2:4 vs Rev.12:7????
« Reply #11 on: November 30, 2010, 05:12:38 AM »

Hi Samson~

I believe both you and Carol are saying the same thing from different perspectives.  8)

Harlot Babylon's apostles, prophets, proclaimers of “good news”, shepherds and teachers are their idols of status, required to be bowed to, revered, feared and obeyed by the laity. They like to receive acknowledgement and approval. They  have their glory of men, not God.

Their pious words and titles, honors and distinctions, are awarded to those who best bow to the Beast and are  become False Prophets of deceptions who Lord it over others.

Mat 23:5  But all their works they do for to be seen of men: they make broad their phylacteries, and enlarge the borders of their garments,
Mat 23:6  And love the uppermost rooms at feasts, and the chief seats in the synagogues,
Mat 23:7  And greetings in the markets, and to be called of men, Rabbi, Rabbi.
Mat 23:8  But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, even Christ; and ALL YE ARE BRETHREN.

In the Body of Christ,  apostles , prophets, proclaimers of good news, shepherds and teachers are BRETHREN.

BRETHREN apostles, BRETHREN prophets, BRETHREN proclaimers of good news, BRETHREN shepherds and BRETHREN teachers are ALL in the process of salvation through Judgment on the House of God.   

"For whom He did foreknow, He also did predestinate to be conformed to the Image of the Son, that He might be the Firstborn among many BRETHREN" (Rom. 8:29).

Blessings Brethren
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Samson

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Re: Jude 1:6 vs 2 Peter 2:4 vs Rev.12:7????
« Reply #12 on: November 30, 2010, 12:36:09 PM »

Hi Deborah,

Yes, You have a gift(All is of God) of perception and reading between the lines, You answered well. It's true that many of these simple expressions: Overseer, Elder(Older Man), Shepherd, Deacon, etc, have received a special Ecclesiastical Label. Cyprian of Carthage and Ignatius of Antioch from the Second Century of Our Common Era helped initiate this process that eventually led to terms like Bishop, Cardinal, Archbishop, Reverend, Deacon(Servant) and other High sounding terms of office. Greek Words like Episkopos, Episkopoi, Presbyteros, Presbyteroi, Diakonos, Diakonoi gradually developed into these Technical Exalting Titles. Douglass New bible Dictionary states: " Among the Apostolic Fathers, Ignatius is the only one who insists on Monarchical Episcopacy, and He never states that this is of divine institution." Jerome of the fourth Century is quoted as saying that the supremacy of a single Bishop came about by custom rather than by the Lords appointment, being a means used to prevent divisions. The suggestion is also made that the Monarchical Episcopacy appeared in the local congregations when some gifted individual acquired a permanent chairmanship of the board of presbyter-bishops." PG, 158. The true sense of the word Episkopos took on a perverted meaning becoming the Title of Men who " lorded it over the flock;" Acts. 20:29-35; 1Peter 5:2,3.

Carol brought out the meaning of the Hebrew Word Raw' AW(Shepherd, to tend a flock) for added insight and that was good,  :). I saw that word in My Strongs Hebrew/Greek Bible Dictionary last night, but was too lazy to include it in my Post,  ;).

Thanks Deborah for explaining the distinction between the False Ministers/Prophets and the True Brethren in Your Post contrasting Matt. 23:5-8 and Your last paragraph about the Brethren & Romans. 8:29.

                     Kind Regards, Samson.
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wisdom

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Re: Jude 1:6 vs 2 Peter 2:4 vs Rev.12:7????
« Reply #13 on: November 30, 2010, 02:36:31 PM »

Thanks alot your responses were very helpful!
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Deborah-Leigh

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Re: Jude 1:6 vs 2 Peter 2:4 vs Rev.12:7????
« Reply #14 on: November 30, 2010, 03:26:38 PM »

Your kind words are appreciated Samson.

You have served well. Your research shows scholastic evidence of Babylon's "Technical Exalting Titles." which is not a practise among true Brethren of Christ.

Luk 22:25  And He said unto them, The kings of the Gentiles exercise lordship over them; and they that exercise authority upon them are called benefactors.
Luk 22:26  But ye shall not be so: but he that is greatest among you, let him be as the younger; and he that is chief, as he that doth serve.


Your grateful sister
Deborah
« Last Edit: November 30, 2010, 03:32:50 PM by Arcturus »
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