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Author Topic: Accountable, or to give an account.  (Read 5404 times)

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Marky Mark

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Accountable, or to give an account.
« on: January 03, 2011, 02:10:45 PM »

Hello fellow Truth seekers.

 After reading a post by Samson that God is responsible and that we are
 accountable,
 def.
1. responsible to someone or for some action; answerable.
2. able to be explained.

 it started me thinking on how the usage of the word accountable is used in Scripture.I do not believe that the word accountable is even used in Scripture but the word to give or take account is.

My question is,are we really accountable by use of the definition above or are we to give an account [Strongs;3056-3004] to what the Lord has worked through us [judgement now in the house of the Lord, then latter for all those in the GWT judgement ] in our beastly lives while in the flesh. Accountable seems as if we have to be responsible for what actions the Lord has seen fit to bestow upon us, in the trails and tribulations that He causes in the lives of all of His creation.

I guess what I'm trying to ask here is, are we to be accountable for our actions or are we to give or take an account of ourselves to the Lord,[by dying daily,to the flesh], meaning, what we have learned through His judgements because of His cause and effect in our lives. After all, His will, will be done.

The following verse and Strong's definition of the word account seem to bear this out .

Any help or correction on this matter would be appreciated.


3004. lego leg'-o a primary verb; properly, to "lay" forth, i.e. (figuratively) relate (in words (usually of systematic or set discourse; whereas 2036 and 5346 generally refer to an individual expression or speech respectively; while 4483 is properly to break silence merely, and 2980 means an extended or random harangue)); by implication, to mean:--ask, bid, boast, call, describe, give out, name, put forth, say(-ing, on), shew, speak, tell, utter.

3056. logos log'-os from 3004;[/i] something said (including the thought); by implication, a topic (subject of discourse), also reasoning (the mental faculty) or motive; by extension, a computation; specially, (with the article in John) the Divine Expression (i.e. Christ):--account, cause, communication, X concerning, doctrine, fame, X have to do, intent, matter, mouth, preaching, question, reason, + reckon, remove, say(-ing), shew, X speaker, speech, talk, thing, + none of these things move me, tidings, treatise, utterance, word, work.


 Rom 14:12  So then every one of us shall give account [G3056] of himself to God.

Mat 18:23  Therefore is the kingdom of heaven likened unto a certain king, which would take account [G3056] of his servants.

Luk 16:2  And he called him, and said unto him, How is it that I hear this of thee? give an account [G3056] of thy stewardship; for thou mayest be no longer steward. 

Mat 12:36  But I say unto you, That every idle word that  men shall speak, they shall give account [G3056] thereof in the day of judgment.

Act 19:40  For we are in danger to be called in question for this day's uproar, there being no cause whereby we may give an account [G3056] of this concourse.

Php 4:17  Not because I desire a gift: but I desire fruit that may abound to your account [G3056].

Heb 13:17  Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account [G3056], that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you.

1Pe 4:5  Who shall give account [G3056] to him that is ready to judge the quick and the dead.
1Pe 4:6  For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.



Peace...Mark
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mharrell08

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Re: Accountable, or to give an account.
« Reply #1 on: January 03, 2011, 02:56:32 PM »

Hello fellow Truth seekers.

 After reading a post by Samson that God is responsible and that we are
 accountable,
 def.
1. responsible to someone or for some action; answerable.
2. able to be explained.

 it started me thinking on how the usage of the word accountable is used in Scripture.I do not believe that the word accountable is even used in Scripture but the word to give or take account is.


That's the same thing Mark. The fact that each person must give an account of their lives makes them accountable. While many dictionaries state that responsible and accountable are synonymous, they are similar but not the same.


My question is,are we really accountable by use of the definition above or are we to give an account [Strongs;3056-3004] to what the Lord has worked through us [judgement now in the house of the Lord, then latter for all those in the GWT judgement ] in our beastly lives while in the flesh. Accountable seems as if we have to be responsible for what actions the Lord has seen fit to bestow upon us, in the trails and tribulations that He causes in the lives of all of His creation.

I guess what I'm trying to ask here is, are we to be accountable for our actions or are we to give or take an account of ourselves to the Lord,[by dying daily,to the flesh], meaning, what we have learned through His judgements because of His cause and effect in our lives. After all, His will, will be done.

We are accountable for our actions because we choose to make them. But God is ultimately responsible for the choices we make as it is His intention that we make the choices we do.

For example, Adam & Eve in the garden of Eden: they both willingly chose to eat from the tree of knowledge even though they had been warned not to. But God is ultimately responsible for that choice as it was His Intention for these events to happen as they did.

But getting back to accountable and 'to give an account': they are the same thing. That's what makes someone accountable, that person having to give an account. No one else can give God an account for our lives but us. That makes us accountable.


Hope this helps,

Marques
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Marky Mark

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Re: Accountable, or to give an account.
« Reply #2 on: January 03, 2011, 05:34:11 PM »

Hey Marques. Thanks for the response.

  I understand what you speak of,but,the two words in question seem to me, at least, to differ in their intended use in the verse given, in that, to be accountable means that we are to give an answer to the Lord of why we are doing the things that we do, (which truly are our choices,preordained of course),but,none the less, its also like the Lord saying to us, "tell me what you did and why you did it because I have not a clue", which of course is silly to even think that. He already knew the answer before the world began.

On the other hand, on what account, [Jesus is that account] should we be living and doing what is Spiritually right, according to what the Spirit is showing us in our daily struggle with our flesh, which of course is what we should be dying to daily in the first place.

 It is because of Christ's account for what He has done for us that we should all be aware of,that in turn,this same account is expected of all of His elect in such a way as we need to be as He is,that is, with the same like mindedness.

Php 2:5  Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
 
That to me would be true accountability. I think we are ultimately accountable in a way that we must always be aware of who and what we are according to His judgements and to His high expectations of the Truth in us, which I believe we all are striving for in our walk with Christ

2Co 5:10  All of us must appear in front of Christ's judgment seat. Then all people will receive what they deserve for the good or evil they have done while living in their bodies.

Hope this makes some sense...


Peace...Mark
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daywalker

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Re: Accountable, or to give an account.
« Reply #3 on: January 03, 2011, 05:52:03 PM »


Hello Mark and all...

I think I have a scripture that may shed some light on just how God will hold us "accountable" or "make us give account" for the deeds (good and bad) that we do in this earthly life:


(Repeated twice in Proverbs--Chp 16:2 & Chp 21:2)

"Every way of a man is right in his own eyes, but the LORD weighs the heart." ESV

"All a person's ways seem right in his own opinion, but the LORD evaluates the motives." NET



Ray says in one of his speeches that (paraphrasing) 'God will hold us accountable, not just for what we do, but for the way we think.' So, though we may have a hard time overcoming certain sins, God also takes into consideration the fact that we WANT to overcome these sins; not just that we haven't yet overcome them. I think it's safe to say that GOD cares more about our spiritual state (our inner being, who we desire and try to be), as opposed to our physical state (what we actually do). Kinda like how Jesus told the Pharisees to "First clean the inside of the cup and the plate, that the outside also may be clean."--Matt 23:26.

Hope this is helpful.

Christopher  8)
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mharrell08

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Re: Accountable, or to give an account.
« Reply #4 on: January 03, 2011, 06:01:19 PM »

Hey Marques. Thanks for the response.

  I understand what you speak of,but,the two words in question seem to me, at least, to differ in their intended use in the verse given, in that, to be accountable means that we are to give an answer to the Lord of why we are doing the things that we do, (which truly are our choices,preordained of course),but,none the less, its also like the Lord saying to us, "tell me what you did and why you did it because I have not a clue", which of course is silly to even think that. He already knew the answer before the world began.

Mark,

I understand your point above, but what I highlighted in bold is not what giving an account is. We give an account because we are to be judged. God doesn't need to know what we did, WE need to know what we did wrong and most importantly, WHY it was wrong in the first place. We do this everyday with our own children. We don't admonish ourselves for their actions, we teach them about what they did and why they should or should not do it in the future.

The scriptures tell us that we will be judged by our words, thoughts & actions. I have to confess and repent of the sins in my life, as does everyone for their own lives. This is what it means to give an account of: to be judged for the things you did in your life.


On the other hand, on what account, [Jesus is that account] should we be living and doing what is Spiritually right, according to what the Spirit is showing us in our daily struggle with our flesh, which of course is what we should be dying to daily in the first place.

But the scriptures speak of all people giving an account for every word, thought, & deed in their lives, IN JUDGMENT [Matt 12:36], not just believers. How would an unbeliever give an account of dying to the flesh and living for Christ?


Marques

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Kat

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Re: Accountable, or to give an account.
« Reply #5 on: January 03, 2011, 07:09:11 PM »


Hi Mark,

To give account is to stand before the throne of God so that our works may be judged. This has begun now for the chosen, "for the time has come for judgment to begin with the household of God" (1Pe 4:17).

It's not that God does not know what we have done, what we are doing now or will yet do. The judgment is for US, as WE must stand before Him and give account. Maybe this will be some kind of review of our lives that we have to go through, but in some kind of way we will answer for all our actions. So whether there is righteousness or condemnation it will be clear as it will be revealed before God by our own actions/works that WE WILLINGLY HAVE DONE.

2Co 5:10  For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may receive what is due for what he has done in the body, whether good or evil.

1Co 3:13  each one's work will become clear; for the Day will declare it, because it will be revealed by fire; and the fire will test each one's work, of what sort it is.
v. 14  If anyone's work which he has built on it endures, he will receive a reward.
v. 15  If anyone's work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.

The chosen are being chastisened now to correct any evil they do, so they will be ready to enter the kingdom at His return. But the world is not being judged and corrected now, that will be later at the white throne judgment for them.

John 12:47  And if anyone hears My words and does not believe, I do not judge him; for I did not come to judge the world but to save the world.

So we will stand before Him and give account and from our own works/actions in this life we will receive what we deserve.

Mat 25:31  "When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory.
v. 32  All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats.
v. 33  And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left.
v. 34  Then the King will say to those on His right hand, "Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

Mat 25:41  Then shall he say also to those on the left hand, Go ye from me, the cursed, to the fire, the age-during, that hath been prepared for the Devil and his messengers;

mercy, peace and love
Kat

« Last Edit: January 03, 2011, 09:14:20 PM by Kat »
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Akira329

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Re: Accountable, or to give an account.
« Reply #6 on: January 03, 2011, 08:58:43 PM »

Hey Mark,
You make this statement:
Quote
I guess what I'm trying to ask here is, are we to be accountable for our actions or are we to give or take an account of ourselves to the Lord,[by dying daily,to the flesh], meaning, what we have learned through His judgements because of His cause and effect in our lives. After all, His will, will be done.

The statement in bold means accountable.

Mat 12:36  But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment.
Mat 12:37  For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.


Rom 14:11  For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.
Rom 14:12  So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.


Ultimately its about what we learn not what the Lord learns.

Hope this helps
Antaiwan
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mmijares

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Re: Accountable, or to give an account.
« Reply #7 on: January 03, 2011, 10:20:01 PM »

Poor me.  English is not my native tongue and this "accountability" and "responsibility" had tossed me several times in confusion.  I don't know about most of you guys (English speaking people) but what I understand about being accountable is exactly what being responsible, i.e. that someone must answer (explain the reason) to the evil he/she has done.  If this my-understanding is true then God making man accountable is synonymous to God not knowing the reason of every deed of men.  But this is not so.  God knows everything from the beginning.

So what does accountable really mean?  If by this we mean "to give an account", following Strong's definition, then we just lay forth, relate in words what we did and said without explaining why, because God knew them.

Time and time again, everytime I visit this Forum, I am being fed of the truth that God is creating children in His image.  That there is no free-will on this.  That we are being molded.  That our actions are ultimately caused by the MOST POWERFUL BEING.  And this is the truth we dearly believe in.  Then, why there is a need to explain our actions and words as if by explaining we will receive mercy from God?  God has already bestowed His mercy upon us long before we start to act and utter a single word.

Therefore, everytime I read Ray or other members of this forum say that "we are accountable", I just treat it as if he / they mean "we are to give an account."
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Kat

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Re: Accountable, or to give an account.
« Reply #8 on: January 04, 2011, 12:20:07 AM »


Hi mmijares,

Here is an email that really gets into why we are accountable, I think it will help your understanding.

http://bible-truths.com/email11.htm#responsibility -----

[Ray Replies]

Dear Chris:

You ask how one is held "accountable" when he only did what he HAD to do? I actually do answer this in my paper, but let me relate it for you.  God has NOT given man 'free' will (the ability to make UNCAUSED choices), all of man's choices are CAUSED BY SOMETHING. But the man DOES MAKE THE CHOICES!

When you or I are confronted with a decision to either do something that we know is right, or know is wrong, we weight the options and MAKE THE CHOICE. God has absolutely given man a brain that has the ability to process information. Man CAN process information and make a choice. But it is the information itself the causes the choice one way or the other. The man cannot make a choice WITHOUT some form of information that influences or ultimately CAUSES him to make a choice. NO ONE MAKES US MAKE THE CHOICE, even other unforeseen circumstances and information DOES MAKE OR CAUSE US TO CHOOSE!  True, circumstances beyond our control, which we do not see or even perceive, do cause us to MAKE a choice, but ... BUT, IN OUR OWN HEART AND MIND, WE MAKE THE CHOICE -- not someone else or something else.

But "it's all GOD" Who is ACTUALLY doing it, isn't it? NO, YOU, ACTUALLY, ARE THE ACTIVE PARTICIPANT WHO IS DOING IT! God merely brings about the circumstances that INFLUENCE AND CAUSE YOU TO DO IT! 

Now then, pay close attention to what I am saying:  Why are we held accountable for something that we absolutely COULD NOT HAVE AVOIDED?  Why?   Because at the time we made the 'voluntary' (not absolutely 'FREE,' but 'voluntary') CHOICE, it was in OUR heart and in OUR mind to DO SO. And if the choice was WRONG, or SINFUL, then WE, not GOD, must be held accountable. God takes the "responsibility" for what we did -- hence He DIED ON A CROSS FOR US, but WE are accountable for our SINFUL WRONG CHOICES.

This is the only way man will LEARN right from wrong! Adam and Eve were 'TOLD' right from wrong, but not until they actually 'EXPERIENCED' right and wrong, did it make sense to them.  IT IS WRONG TO SIN WHETHER WE WERE COERCED TO COMMIT SIN OR NOT.   "The DEVIL MADE me do it." It matters not, YOU DID IT and are therefore accountable.

Juveniles commit MILLIONS of crimes and sins for which they are not RESPONSIBLE. But, nonetheless, our own court system HOLDS THEM ACCOUNTABLE. And even human, carnal, judges take this factor into consideration when handing out penalties.

It is the PENALTY that also CAUSES US TO CHOOSE RIGHTLY after we have chosen WRONGLY! When we burn our fingers on a hot stove, we LEARN to not touch a hot stove.

God has developed a "ways and means" to accomplish His righteous end, plan, and purpose. And God's ways are VERY WISE -- they WORK, and they work very well!  We have this absolute promise from God:

"When Thy JUDGMENTS are in the earth, the inhabitants of the world, WILL LEARN RIGHTEOUSNESS" (Isa. 26:9)!!!

God be with you,

Ray

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Akira329

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Re: Accountable, or to give an account.
« Reply #9 on: January 04, 2011, 01:46:20 AM »

Hey mmijares
I'd like to add another email of Ray's to this list!
I think the problem is in understanding Responsibility vs. Accountability
They may be synonymous but a little different.
Ray makes great points in this email:
http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,2259.0.html
Ray,
First, thank you for being an instrument of light and bringing God's truths to
thousands through this venue.

I have one quick question. You reference in several of your papers the
distinction between God being responsible for man's spiritual weakness and man
being held accountable. I believe I grasp the concept, however, when I look up
both responsible and accountable in the dictionary, they are defined the same
way. Can you help clarify the difference between the two for me in word form
rather than just this perception in my head? Thank you so much again for the
work you are doing. Now this is a gospel full of GOOD news and one to get
excited about. Praise be to God!
Blessings,
Sherri


    Dear Sherri:

    Although dictionaries partly define responsibility as accountability; and accountability as responsibility, that is not their only usage.  Here is how I mean to use the two terms taken from my first paper ever posted on bibletruths.com--Kenney's sermon on Hell and Africans:

    RESPONSIBILITY

    Not only are all the billions of heathens who never heard the gospel not responsible for their own salvation, but neither are we responsible for our salvation either. Nowhere in the Scriptures does God hold man responsible for anything. This is just another man-made doctrine that clashes with the Scriptures.

    We can use the word "responsible" in a relative sense, such as: "It is a man's responsibility to provide for his family." We all know what the word means. But even if this man doesn't provide for his family, God will hold him accountable not responsible.

    The problem with your sermon, Dr. Kennedy, is that you want to present God as a "fair" God. You know most men have lived and died never knowing God or even hearing His Name, so you try to relieve God of His responsibility for His creatures. You know that there is "no other name under Heaven by which man must be saved." You do know that, don't you? I'm betting that you do.

    But God doesn't need to be relieved of His responsibility.

    Knowing that billions of heathens have lived and died, never hearing that Name or knowing the true God, (and since you have all these man-made doctrines that clash with the Word of God), you try to "get God off the hook." And so you place the burden of responsibility for being saved on man's shoulders. God is not "on the hook." He doesn't need your help, my help, a missionary's help, or anybody else's help to save His children. God does use teachers, pastors, etc. to acquaint people with His Word. But this is a privilege for us, not a necessity for God. Remember the Scripture, that God can "raise up stones" if needed. The Scriptures tell us that all men everywhere are accountable to God, not responsible:

    "For the word of God is living and operative, and keen above any two-edged sword, and penetrating up to the parting of soul and spirit both of the articulations and marrow, and is a judge of the sentiments and thoughts of the heart. And there is not a creature which is not apparent in its sight. Now all is naked and bare to the eyes of Him to Whom [God] we are accountable" (Heb. 4:12-13).

    Even the King James Version, with its thousands of discrepancies, does not even once in its fifteen hundred pages, use the word "responsible" or "responsibility."

    Yet churches evolve whole doctrines around this word "responsibility." Things like: "you're responsible for going to hell" or "it's your responsibility to accept Christ" or "the age of responsibility" or "everyone is responsible for his or her deeds." Strange to make so big a deal of a word that does not even appear in Scripture.

    When a minor (a child) commits a crime, even the unjust courts of our land do not hold him responsible. Is his crime simply overlooked? No. He must give an account for his actions. He is accountable. He might be the victim of a broken home, with a drunkard father, a prostitute mother, drug-hooked sisters, and gang-member brothers. Thus, he is not considered responsible. Nonetheless, he is still accountable.

    "Now I am saying to you that, for every idle declaration which men shall be speaking they shall be rendering an account concerning it in the day of judging" (Matt. 12:36).

    "For all of us shall be presented at the dais of God ... Consequently then, each of us shall be giving account concerning himself to God" (Rom. 14:11-12).

    Read the dozens of scriptures where we are likened not only to "children," but to "little children." God is dealing with mankind as minors. He holds them accountable, but nowhere does God hold man responsible. Show me one Scripture.

    The church can only see the relative in God's word. They fail to see that God is behind everything in the "absolute."

    " ... according to the purpose of the One Who is operating all in accord with the counsel of His will." (Eph. 1:11--Concordant Literal New Testament).

    The only One in the universe Who is responsible [able to respond] is God And so, God takes full responsibility for everything even though He holds man accountable for his deeds. Man is accountable for his deeds, not because he could have done otherwise, but because he thinks he is responsible through his presumed free will. Because he actually did the things he did. However, the Scriptures tell us that, "not in all" is this knowledge. Puny man really thinks he is in control of his own destiny. He really thinks he is a "god unto himself." And the Christian Church hasn't done very much to educate him out of this dilemma."

    Hope this helps you,

    God be with you,

    Ray


The statements in bold help me to gain a better understanding of being accountable.
Great papers to re-read are Kennedy's paper, free will series and even the repentance/guilty of all transcripts!

Hope this helps mmijares
Antaiwan
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daywalker

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Re: Accountable, or to give an account.
« Reply #10 on: January 04, 2011, 01:42:13 PM »


[Ray Replies]

This is the only way man will LEARN right from wrong! Adam and Eve were 'TOLD' right from wrong, but not until they actually 'EXPERIENCED' right and wrong, did it make sense to them.  IT IS WRONG TO SIN WHETHER WE WERE COERCED TO COMMIT SIN OR NOT.   "The DEVIL MADE me do it." It matters not, YOU DID IT and are therefore accountable.

Ray



This, to me, is perhaps the most important lesson I've learned from Ray, and no doubt the lesson one must comprehend in order to advance from a spiritual minor to a spiritual adult (if you will). Theological reasoning gets stuck between (a) Is God responsible for everything? -or- (b) Is mankind responsible for everything?

Understanding that God is 'responsible' for everything, while at the same time, holding us 'accountable' in order that we learn from our mistakes, learn right from wrong, overcome our sins and weaknesses and become His spiritual children (image) ...This is the lesson theology refuses to accept. Thank you God for Ray's teachings and for this website!


Christopher  8)
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Marky Mark

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Re: Accountable, or to give an account.
« Reply #11 on: January 04, 2011, 01:58:04 PM »

Thank-you all for your concern and replys. 8)


Peace...Mark
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GaryK

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Re: Accountable, or to give an account.
« Reply #12 on: January 05, 2011, 04:45:13 PM »

This topic….the original posted questions by Mark and his views…….along with each and every response thereafter….is where this forum shines.  At least to me.   I’ve read this thread now more than a dozen times and continue to realize that I’m dumber than a fence-line post on the free-will issue.  Well, maybe not completely but I’m at least the turtle sitting on top of the post, can’t move and can’t get down because some idiot put me there, upside down.  I really hate admitting such dumbness, especially knowing the number of times I’ve read Ray’s papers on FW.  Sometimes when reading his papers…over and over and over on free-will…..I think, “I’ve got it”.   But I don’t.  Not yet, still.  There’s some key ingredient missing and I just simply don’t know what it is.   Not yet.   It’s nice to know that Ray himself has said in his papers the extensive number of hours he’s spent thinking on the FW issue before he ‘got it’.  So, I stand in a ‘spiritual prison’, until such a time as parole or pardon is given.   I trust those who have gone before me on this same route can reassure me and others that there is, in fact, life after these prison walls.

Maybe I’m over-thinking the whole thing.  Nonetheless, I think there’s a quantum difference between reading on a subject where the words seem to make sense enough, as far as reading skills go, as opposed to thinking on and interjecting one’s own circumstances or life’s trials within the subject and coming away with a newness of understanding complete with that same understanding containing one’s life experiences as well, especially on such an important subject as this one.

(whew, that was a long sentence wasn’t it?   Sentence composition skills---grade F....sorry Ms. Curry  :D).

But, this thread has some jeweled lines threaded within the responses that help push an understanding. 

The forum is working like a greased machine on this one.   Good subject Mark.
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grapehound

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Re: Accountable, or to give an account.
« Reply #13 on: January 05, 2011, 07:01:56 PM »

Hi Guys,

Iv'e followed this thread with interest and as an aid to relate my understanding
of FW, I was thinking in terms of metaphors.



What came to mind was Shakespeare.  A man that read his bible.
A man that 'knew' things that are not common to men.

He suggested that 'all the world is a stage' and that we are merely a cast list, each with his entrances and exits, each with a script.

The muse of theatre dictates action and reaction, drama and comedy. light and dark, hero versus villain.
Somebody has to be the villain, or there is no story.

The actor is not guilty of the deeds or the thoughts of his creation.
He is accountable for his role, but not responsible for the production.
The Director is.

Neither is the actor responsible for the casting.
The Director is.

Neither the wages, the venue or the story.
ALL alone are the Director's remit.
Especially if He is also the Producer.

It seems the 'bard' understood far more than human nature and the price of a ticket.


Grape x
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cjwood

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Re: Accountable, or to give an account.
« Reply #14 on: January 06, 2011, 01:56:06 AM »

... I’ve read this thread now more than a dozen times and continue to realize that I’m dumber than a fence-line post on the free-will issue.  Well, maybe not completely but I’m at least the turtle sitting on top of the post, can’t move and can’t get down because some idiot put me there, upside down...

gary i really enjoyed your imagery on this one.  i laughed so hard i almost got choked.  :D  i can't tell you how many times i have felt like the turtle, but, never quite knew how to describe it.

... It’s nice to know that Ray himself has said in his papers the extensive number of hours he’s spent thinking on the FW issue before he ‘got it’.  So, I stand in a ‘spiritual prison’, until such a time as parole or pardon is given.   I trust those who have gone before me on this same route can reassure me and others that there is, in fact, life after these prison walls.

i know from my experiences, i can reassure you that there is indeed, life after the prison walls of the free-will detention center are open.  8)

thanks for posting gary.
claudia


« Last Edit: January 06, 2011, 02:02:06 AM by cjwood »
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Dawidos

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Re: Accountable, or to give an account.
« Reply #15 on: February 03, 2011, 12:59:02 PM »

Well, we must remember that giving an account has also a deep, meaningful purpose like everything else in God's Grand Plan. The first of all, it's for our benefits only, not for God. The second of all it's a necessary step to learn righteousness. In the mortal world we also give an account before the court, we can say we are guilty of something, but "carnal" giving an account is nothing compared to "spiritual" giving an account during The Last Judgment. I don't know how it will look like, but I imagine your wrong acts and doings will completely manifest to you, you will "taste" them by your inner being and you will feel all this remorse, regret, sorrow. You will understand how carnal and beast you are and this will lead to repentance and begging for change. Next you will go to the Lake of Fire for correction - to purge you of this evil nature (therefore you suffer loss of your inner being, of who you are), but in the end you will be saved and become a new creature, in which only those good traits are preserved. Probably the worse you are, the more intense will be this purging process.
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Dave in Tenn

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Re: Accountable, or to give an account.
« Reply #16 on: February 03, 2011, 02:35:13 PM »

Well said, Dawidos.  What we are and do is no surprise to God.  The 'giving an account' is for our benefit. And it isn't limited to the Great White Throne or future judgement.  We only get healed when we acknowledge we're sick.  Everything from the law itself to the soveriegnty of God is working to get us to that point, and then beyond.  There are several 'names' for this process/event, and it is the reason for the law itself.   
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Heb 10:32  But you must continue to remember those earlier days, how after you were enlightened you endured a hard and painful struggle.

SDDiver

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Re: Accountable, or to give an account.
« Reply #17 on: February 03, 2011, 06:09:53 PM »

There are several 'names' for this process/event, and it is the reason for the law itself.   

I'm not sure I follow. Is the event the giving of an account? In which way is it reason for the law?  ???

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Dave in Tenn

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Re: Accountable, or to give an account.
« Reply #18 on: February 03, 2011, 07:09:02 PM »

I don't see any difference between 'giving an account' at the Final Judgement and 'confessing sins', 'repenting', 'judging yourself' or any number of other scriptural descriptions of coming to see the Beast on the Throne.  If God's people are being judged now, this is the primary way they are being judged.  We "give an account" every time we compare ourselves to His righteousness and find ourselves lacking.  Only the setting is different (if indeed it is much different) and apparently the amount of 'sight' as opposed to the faith with which we are judged now.

The first several chapters of Romans lay out the 'why' of the law.  I won't argue that the law may have been given to make better lives or societies as well as the reasons Paul laid out, but those aren't the reasons he laid out in Romans.  The law came to, in essence, create sinners.  Before and without law, there is no transgression.  The law also increased in order to increase sin.  The harder the law to obey (and the more of them), the more sin it creates/increases.  It also sets the penalty for sin, and that is death.  This is the 'death' that Christians fear and those who are coming to believe the Gospel embrace.  It's the death to self, self-righteousness, and to sin itself.

"We know that the Law is Spiritual..." said Paul in Romans 7:14, ..."but I know I am fleshly, disposed of under sin."  It's not possible to obey this Spiritual Law in the flesh.  It's the hardest of all possible laws.

I'll stop there for fear of teaching.  Read the first chapters of Romans, if you haven't as a BELIEVER in the Gospel, and you'll at least see that the reasons for the law are counter-intuitive to sunday school.  It's a good thing to find ourselves destroyed and lost.  It happens to the best of us.

« Last Edit: February 03, 2011, 07:39:51 PM by Dave in Tenn »
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Heb 10:32  But you must continue to remember those earlier days, how after you were enlightened you endured a hard and painful struggle.

grapehound

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Re: Accountable, or to give an account.
« Reply #19 on: February 03, 2011, 11:18:10 PM »

Amen Dave
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