> General Discussions
Man of sin and the flesh
Oatmeal:
How does the man of sin (2 Thessalonians 2:3) relate to or differ from the flesh? What exactly is the flesh? The lump of meat that desires to have sex and to eat pleasant food and to be comfortable, as opposed to the man of sin who, until exposed, resides hidden deep within, and who considers himself to be king and as God, or is one (just?) the outward manifestation of the other? Is the man of sin our true self? If he is, is that why he cannot be conquered by ourselves?
In our flesh there is no good thing (Romans 7:18). What does it mean to walk in the Spirit (Galatians 5:16), and how does one walk in the Spirit, so that one does not fulfil the lust of the flesh? If we mortify the flesh (Romans 8:13), this does not affect the man of sin? He still remains and will remain until destroyed by the coming of Christ? If the man of sin is our true self, and he is totally against God, then how does God give us the desire to obey Him, to mortify the flesh, and to walk the narrow way, and where in us does this desire reside? How can it be even possible for us to have this desire? I am not saying that it is impossible; I am asking how is it possible.
Kat:
Hi Oatmeal,
This from the article 'The Beast Within' should help you with this.
http://bible-truths.com/lake14.html ----
JUST WHAT IS CARNALITY
What then is it to be carnal or carnally minded? It’s not good, I can tell you that. It’s a monster—IT’S A BEAST:
"for to be carnally minded is DEATH…"
And just why is that?
"Because the carnal mind is enmity [DEEP-SEATED HATRED] against God: for it is NOT SUBJECT to the [spiritual] law of God, neither indeed CAN BE [Gk: ‘is ABLE’]. So then they that are in the flesh [carnal-minded] CANNOT please God" (Rom. 8:6-8).
v
Paul wasn’t telling the unbelieving world that "ye are yet carnal." Nor was Jesus telling the world that they had "left the first love." No, Paul and Jesus are both telling THE CHURCH that they are "yet carnal and have left their first love"! In other words, AFTER coming into a church, AFTER they have accepted Christ, AFTER they have pursued their walk with God, AFTER they have built a spiritual house upon the sand, AFTER they have become indoctrinated with the commandments of men and the traditions of men, can one fall away and be in a position to actually spiritually SEE THE BEAST WITHIN! SEE the man of sin and the son of perdition. See your carnal-minded, God hating, SINS. You and I and all who have been enlightened by God’s word and our own failures in life, can surely see that we are all spiritually, WILD BEASTS.
v
And what does Paul tell us will be revealed AFTER we fall away?
"Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come except there come a falling away first, and that MAN OF SIN BE REVEALED, THE SON OF PERDITION" (II Thes. 2:3).
The beast, the man of sin, and the son of perdition are all one and the same:
v
The man of sin/son of perdition is UNIVERSAL and found in ALL MANKIND. THAT is how Satan deceives THE WHOLE WORLD (Rev. 12:9).
v
(whom [the beastly man of sin/son of perdition] the LORD shall consume with the spirit of His mouth [IN US—WE, believers and lovers of the Truth], and shall destroy with the brightness of His coming [IN US, making His presence known IN US, destroying the beastly man of sin/son of perdition IN US, making the ‘Day of the Lord to be at hand’ FOR US, and IN US] )! Let’s read it:
"But WE [Paul and believers. NOT ‘them’ and ‘they,’ but ‘WE’—‘Lovers of the Truth’] are bound to give thanks always to God for YOU, brethren beloved in the Lord, because God has from the beginning CHOSEN you [called AND CHOSEN you] to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the Truth: Whereunto He called you by our gospel, to the OBTAINING of the GLORY [‘That the name of our Lord Jesus Christ may be GLORIFIED IN YOU’ Chapter 1:12] of our Lord Jesus Christ.
Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle. Now our lord Jesus Christ Himself, and God, even our Father, which has loved us, and has given us everlasting [eonian] consolation and good hope through grace, Comfort your hearts, and establish you in every good word and work" (Verses 13-17).
v
THANK GOD, that I (L. Ray Smith) had fallen away, left my first love, looked back, forsook the Lord, and watched my house upon the sand come crashing down! Only then was I able to stand upon the sand of the sea, and see the beast within, the man of sin, the son of perdition, and Satan the devil who DECEIVED ME!
But NOW, "I am crucified WITH Christ: nevertheless I live: yet not I, but Christ lives IN ME: and the life which I now life in the flesh I live by the faith OF the Son of God, who loved ME [and YOU], and gave Himself for ME [and YOU]" (Gal. 2:20).
In conclusion:
"I was in the Spirit on the Lord’s day, and heard BEHIND me a great voice, as of a trumpet… And I turned to see the voice that spoke with ME. And being TURNED, I saw seven gold candlesticks; [the complete church of God in all generations, with MY sins outlined in each and every one of them] And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle.
His head and His hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and His eyes were as a flame of fire; [PURGING all who look upon Him] And His feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned [refined] in a furnace; and His voice as the sound of many waters. And he had in His right hand seven stars: and out of His mouth went a sharp two-edged sword, and His countenance was as the SUN SHINING IN HIS STRENGTH [no longer a physical body with HOLES in it].
And when I saw Him [in my SPIRIT] I fell at His feet as DEAD. And He laid His right hand upon ME [as He will upon YOU], saying unto ME [and unto YOU],
FEAR NOT" (Rev. 1:10-17).
----------------------------------------------------------------
mercy, peace and love
Kat
acomplishedartis:
--- Quote from: Oatmeal on January 25, 2011, 03:59:52 PM --- Is the man of sin our true self? If he is, is that why he cannot be conquered by ourselves?
If the man of sin is our true self, and he is totally against God, then how does God give us the desire to obey Him, to mortify the flesh, and to walk the narrow way, and where in us does this desire reside? How can it be even possible for us to have this desire? I am not saying that it is impossible; I am asking how is it possible.
--- End quote ---
"I am crucified WITH Christ: nevertheless I live: yet not I, but Christ lives IN ME: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith OF the Son of God, who loved ME [and YOU], and gave Himself for ME [and YOU]"
------------------------------------------------------
Would we consider that God predesignated and that He thought about and planed all the millions causes over causes over generations that would end making a desire in our hearts to try to obey him? Sounds like a miracle, but certainly not one of those miracles that people think that come out of the nothing.
Hopefully we are geting into the place where our selfish identity is gone, and all we have left is to live by faith on the Son of God
what a loong long walk...
Gene Balthrop:
Oatmeal.........Scripture says that (WE) ARE the temples of the living GOD, that is our Bodies are, just as Jesus' body was the temple of the living God when he was on earth. Where it says destory this temple and in three days (I) shall raise it it up. The "I" was not Jesus speaking that was GOD first Person Speaking through Jesus' mouth. Many scriptures say it was GOD who raised Jesus from the grave So If Jesus was dead as he said he was, then he could not have raised himself up from the grave right brother.
But notice it say this person (the man of sin) is sitting (IN) the temple of GOD , not GOD sitting (IN) Him, and He is being displayed as a GOD. Now ask yourself this, who is (NOW) sitting in the true temple of GOD and is Being displayed as a GOD . IT IS JESUS HIMSELF is it not?. This false trinitarian teaching set up Jesus as a GOD and that LIE is what creates the (IMAGE) of the MAN of SIN, this lie turns Jesus a man into a GOD , and by that creates the false or LIE about Jesus , turning our IMAGE of Him into the MAN of SIN. God said, "your shall have no other GOD Beside ME", and in another place "I ONLY am GOD and there is (NO) Other". and again Jesus said "for thou art the "ONLY" true GOD".
This false teaching started with the Gnostic's who believed Jesus was sent as a God from the Polera of the GOD'S this teaching is what under pins all the Preexistent teachings the exist today> IMO
peace and love to you and yours.........................................gene
Kat:
Hi Gene,
--- Quote ---This false trinitarian teaching set up Jesus as a GOD and that LIE is what creates the (IMAGE) of the MAN of SIN, this lie turns Jesus a man into a GOD , and by that creates the false or LIE about Jesus
--- End quote ---
What I gather you are saying here is Jesus Christ was not God? Here are a few emails on that will help you see what we believe concerning who and what Jesus Christ was while in the flesh.
http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php?topic=3443.msg25690#msg25690 ---
Ah, but the Scriptures do refer to Jesus Christ as "God."
[1] "But unto the SON [Jesus] He says, Thy throne, O GOD..." (Heb. 1:08).
[2] "I am Alpha and Omega...says the Lord [Jesus[, which is, and which was, and which is to come, THE ALMIGHTY [GOD]" (Rev. 1:08).
[3] "And Thomas answered and said unto Him [Jesus], My Lord, AND MY GOD" (John 20:28).
[4] "Who [Jesus] being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be EQUAL WITH GOD" (Phil. 2:6).
[5] "Why doth this Man [Jesus] thus speak blasphemies? Who can forgive sins, BUT GOD ONLY?" (Mark 2:08).
[6] "Now unto Him [Jesus] that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of His [Jesus] glory with exceeding joy. To the only wise GOD OUR SAVIOUR [Jesus Christ], be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen" (Jude 24-25).
One or two of these it could be argued refers to God the Father. But there are enough statements to prove Jesus wears the title "God." Then, there is the whole matter of Jesus Himself being the "God" of the Old Testament which spoke to men, etc., seeing that the Father has never spoken to any man directly with a voice, and Jesus and the God the Old Testament did.
http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php?topic=3316.msg24692#msg24692 ---
What constitutes "God?" Was Jesus "God?' when He was in the flesh? ETc., etc., etc., etc. "Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call His name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, GOD WITH US" (Matt. 1:23). Well now, was Jesus "a man with us" or "GOD with us?" Some claim that Jesus WAS THE FATHER IN FLESH. Makes one wonder who in the world Jesus prayed to if that were the case? Did He pray to HIMSELF? On the other hand, there are now those trying to deceive bible-truth.com readers into believing that Jesus was so totally FLESH, that "He was MADE SIN" rather than made "a sin OFFERING."
Jesus was a MAN with the MIND OF GOD. Jesus "emptied" (Phil. 2:5, "But made Himself of no reputation, and took upon Him the form of a servant, and WAS [Greek for 'was' means "EMPTIED"]...." My margin says: "emptied himself of His privileges." Jesus gave up many of His prior privileges when He was made a littler lower than the angels for the express purpose of being able to DIE (Heb. 2:9). Notice that He was "crowned with GLORY and honour," yet He gave up much of His glory in becoming human, and that is why He prayed that His Father would RESTORE
the glories that He had with His Father from before the foundation of the world (John 17:5). Etc.
http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,3052.0.html ---------------
"God" is not the personal last name of Jesus' Father. God is more like a title, more like "Christ," which is not Jesus' last name either, but a title--Jesus is THE CHRIST, and Jesus is GOD.
If One is:
THE CREATOR OF HEAVEN AND EARTH (Col. 1:15-18)
POSSESSING IMMORTAL LIFE.(John 17:1-3)
HAS ALL POWER IN HEAVEN AND EARTH (Matt. 28:18)
Then that One IS GOD! Jesus filfills all three of those
statements of fact, as does His Father. That is why
Both Jesus and His Father are ONE (John 10:30).
God be with you,
Ray
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