> General Discussions
Man of sin and the flesh
Gene Balthrop:
Ray..........There was a host of subject matter listed in your reply, so I think dealing with one at a time would be better here. For instance . The subject of GOD, remember Jesus said "FOR THOU ART THE (ONLY) TRUE GOD" That alone should cause us some concern, and needs clarifying right?. Jesus plainly said the Father was (IN) him he never said He was the Father who he said was the (ONLY) true GOD the word "ONLY" would exclude all others. And remember we also Have GOD himself saying "there is NO GOD besides ME I Know not ANY",, and again "YOU SHALL HAVE NOT GOD BESIDES ME" a commandment of his. When Thomas said "MY Lord AND MY GOD. was he referencing Jesus as that God , IMO he was not , Thomas Know Jesus was not a GOD as well as all the other disciples also did. What they failed to understand was there were two present in the Body of Christ , One was Jesus' Spirit and one was GOD the FATHERS SPIRIT. Remember "THE FATHER WHO IS (IN) ME (HE) DOTH THE WORKS. and again The son of man can do nothing of himslef. Hardly the words of a (TRUE GOD) and remember Jesus said He was Not a "TRUE" GOD, the words "thou" art means not HIM right?. What to me seems hard for people to get there minds around is the fact GOD can (INDWELL) us. Remember that God may be in ALL and Through ALL. This is where people i believe lose it they simply can not understand How ONE GOD can exist (IN) a person. This is what Paul meant when hes said this Great Mystery was how GOD was (IN) Christ . It is Hard to comprehend this, How does GOD really do that, and more how does he exist in ALL and THROUGH ALL at the same time . This is a very deep and profound subject , and needs far more study and clarification >
But lets start with the simple and clear scriptures first, One What did Jesus mean when he said "THOU ART THE (ONLY) TRUE GOD", and again "HEAR O ISREAL THE LORD OUR GOD IS (ONE) LORD". And Where GOD Said 'YOU SHALL HAVE NO OTHER GOD BESIDE ME" said He was the "ONLY" GOD and there were NO OTHER GODS He said HE KNOW of "NONE" BUT HIM> we can not move forward if these are not clarified. Because they are basic and solid scriptures. IMO
peace and love to you and yours............................................gene
Kat:
Hi Gene,
Well I see you have your opinions about all this and we are not here to convince anybody of anything. We come here to discuss the Bible-truths.com articles and our study of the Scriptures. All of us on this forum have read those articles and we are in agreement with them.
We do not desire to debate with all the different opinions and speculations of doctrines that people may have. You need to review the rules at this link http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,3.0.html
mercy, peace and love
Kat
Samson:
--- Quote from: Kat on January 31, 2011, 03:14:08 PM ---
Hi Gene,
--- Quote ---This false trinitarian teaching set up Jesus as a GOD and that LIE is what creates the (IMAGE) of the MAN of SIN, this lie turns Jesus a man into a GOD , and by that creates the false or LIE about Jesus
--- End quote ---
What I gather you are saying here is Jesus Christ was not God? Here are a few emails on that will help you see what we believe concerning who and what Jesus Christ was while in the flesh.
http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php?topic=3443.msg25690#msg25690 ---
Ah, but the Scriptures do refer to Jesus Christ as "God."
[1] "But unto the SON [Jesus] He says, Thy throne, O GOD..." (Heb. 1:08).
[2] "I am Alpha and Omega...says the Lord [Jesus[, which is, and which was, and which is to come, THE ALMIGHTY [GOD]" (Rev. 1:08).
[3] "And Thomas answered and said unto Him [Jesus], My Lord, AND MY GOD" (John 20:28).
[4] "Who [Jesus] being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be EQUAL WITH GOD" (Phil. 2:6).
[5] "Why doth this Man [Jesus] thus speak blasphemies? Who can forgive sins, BUT GOD ONLY?" (Mark 2:08).
[6] "Now unto Him [Jesus] that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of His [Jesus] glory with exceeding joy. To the only wise GOD OUR SAVIOUR [Jesus Christ], be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen" (Jude 24-25).
One or two of these it could be argued refers to God the Father. But there are enough statements to prove Jesus wears the title "God." Then, there is the whole matter of Jesus Himself being the "God" of the Old Testament which spoke to men, etc., seeing that the Father has never spoken to any man directly with a voice, and Jesus and the God the Old Testament did.
http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php?topic=3316.msg24692#msg24692 ---
What constitutes "God?" Was Jesus "God?' when He was in the flesh? ETc., etc., etc., etc. "Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call His name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, GOD WITH US" (Matt. 1:23). Well now, was Jesus "a man with us" or "GOD with us?" Some claim that Jesus WAS THE FATHER IN FLESH. Makes one wonder who in the world Jesus prayed to if that were the case? Did He pray to HIMSELF? On the other hand, there are now those trying to deceive bible-truth.com readers into believing that Jesus was so totally FLESH, that "He was MADE SIN" rather than made "a sin OFFERING."
Jesus was a MAN with the MIND OF GOD. Jesus "emptied" (Phil. 2:5, "But made Himself of no reputation, and took upon Him the form of a servant, and WAS [Greek for 'was' means "EMPTIED"]...." My margin says: "emptied himself of His privileges." Jesus gave up many of His prior privileges when He was made a littler lower than the angels for the express purpose of being able to DIE (Heb. 2:9). Notice that He was "crowned with GLORY and honour," yet He gave up much of His glory in becoming human, and that is why He prayed that His Father would RESTORE
the glories that He had with His Father from before the foundation of the world (John 17:5). Etc.
http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,3052.0.html ---------------
"God" is not the personal last name of Jesus' Father. God is more like a title, more like "Christ," which is not Jesus' last name either, but a title--Jesus is THE CHRIST, and Jesus is GOD.
If One is:
THE CREATOR OF HEAVEN AND EARTH (Col. 1:15-18)
POSSESSING IMMORTAL LIFE.(John 17:1-3)
HAS ALL POWER IN HEAVEN AND EARTH (Matt. 28:18)
Then that One IS GOD! Jesus filfills all three of those
statements of fact, as does His Father. That is why
Both Jesus and His Father are ONE (John 10:30).
God be with you,
Ray
--- End quote ---
Hi Kat,
Just a few points added to Your above Scriptures that show Jesus has the Title God by explaining the meaning of the Greek Word "Theos." God The Father is the UnPlacer regarding the Title God and already possessed that Title & Nature. Hope the below information helps Gene and adds some to this part of the Thread. Taken from the General Discussion Section(Greek Words Defined & Usage) quoting Ray regarding the meaning of "Theos."
Jesus IS God! True, but this fact does NOT make Him the FATHER! Let us always read and believe the Scriptures. The English word "God" is translated from the Greek word Theos which means PLACER or DISPOSER. ANYONE to whom the Father gives such an office of "placer or disposer" is a God! Notice what God says in Psalm 82:6,
"I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High."
Jesus explains this verse for us:
"Jesus answered them, ‘Is it not written in your law, that ‘I say you are gods’? If He said those were gods, to whom the word of God came [and the scripture can not be annulled], are you saying to Him Whom the Father hallows and dispatches into the world that You are blaspheming,’ seeing that I said, ‘Son of God am I’? If I am not doing My Father’s works, do not believe Me. Yet if I am doing them, and if ever you are not believing Me, be believing the works, that you may be knowing and believing that in Me is the Father, and I am in the Father."
JESUS CHRIST BY MEANS OF THE HOLY SPIRIT OF GOD WHICH HIS FATHER GAVE TO HIM IS THE COMFORTER. THE GREEK PROVES THAT CHRIST IS THE COMFORTER!
In the Greek, the "comforter" or consoler is translated from parakleetos. Now, is there any Scriptural proof that Jesus Christ is called "parakleetos?" Yes there is. In I John 2:1 we read:
"And if anyone should be sinning, we have an Entreater with the Father, Jesus Christ, the Just."
In the King James it says we have an "advocate" [with a small "a"]. King James ALWAYS capitalizes the Greek word "parakleetos," so why don’t they capitalize it here? You see, "advocate" or a better translation "Entreater" is translated from the GREEK WORD "parakleetos.18) Logos: Word, Spokesman, used in reference to Jesus Christ, He's Gods Spokesman.
Hope this Helps, Samson.
Gene Balthrop:
Kat............So Direct Scripture Quotations Here has no place of discussion, but only Articles (AGREED WITH) . Then TRUTH is NOT the GOAL HERE , but controlled responses it seem is all you want. I informed The monitor i did not agree with all RAY smith say before i even tried to Join here. I think it best If i go, if true dialog is not what you want here but just controlled agreeing responses, that is the sign of a Cult. Agree with us or get out. Frankly i do not agree with some things Ray says , but there are many thing i do agree with but if i can't have honest dialog by expressing my thoughts them i don't need to wast my time here.
peace and love......................................gene
Samson:
--- Quote from: Gene Balthrop on January 31, 2011, 12:24:31 PM ---Oatmeal.........Scripture says that (WE) ARE the temples of the living GOD, that is our Bodies are, just as Jesus' body was the temple of the living God when he was on earth. Where it says destory this temple and in three days (I) shall raise it it up. The "I" was not Jesus speaking that was GOD first Person Speaking through Jesus' mouth. Many scriptures say it was GOD who raised Jesus from the grave So If Jesus was dead as he said he was, then he could not have raised himself up from the grave right brother.
But notice it say this person (the man of sin) is sitting (IN) the temple of GOD , not GOD sitting (IN) Him, and He is being displayed as a GOD. Now ask yourself this, who is (NOW) sitting in the true temple of GOD and is Being displayed as a GOD . IT IS JESUS HIMSELF is it not?. This false trinitarian teaching set up Jesus as a GOD and that LIE is what creates the (IMAGE) of the MAN of SIN, this lie turns Jesus a man into a GOD , and by that creates the false or LIE about Jesus , turning our IMAGE of Him into the MAN of SIN. God said, "your shall have no other GOD Beside ME", and in another place "I ONLY am GOD and there is (NO) Other". and again Jesus said "for thou art the "ONLY" true GOD".
This false teaching started with the Gnostic's who believed Jesus was sent as a God from the Polera of the GOD'S this teaching is what under pins all the Preexistent teachings the exist today> IMO
peace and love to you and yours.........................................gene
--- End quote ---
Gene,
Below is an excerpt from the Article: Is God a Trinity or an expanding Family, specifically the Sub-Heading; Is Jesus God. This article is found in the main page of the site and explains this nicely. The Issue of God's Nature and what it consists of has been a Topic of Debate for Centuries. God is Spirit and No Man(Anthropos-Mankind) has seen God or heard His voice and God The Father never became Flesh and there is no Scriptural Plan that He ever Will, but Jesus(Jehovah) did. Please consider points copied and pasted below in Blue from that article.
Is Christ God? YES HE IS!
"Yet to the Son [this is GOD speaking]: ‘Thy throne, O GOD, is for the eon of the eon..." (Heb. 1:8).
And also:
Who [Jesus], being inherently in the form of God, deems it not pillaging [taking by force or plundering] to be EQUAL WITH GOD" (Phil. 2:6).
Is Christ worthy of worship? YES HE IS!
"And lo! A leper, coming to Him, WORSHIPED Him, saying..." (Mat. 8:2),
"lo! One approaching Him [Jesus], a chief, WORSHIPED Him..." (Mat. 9:18),
"Now those in the ship WORSHIP Him, saying, ‘truly, God’s Son art Thou!’"
"Yet she, coming, WORSHIPS Him, saying, ‘Lord, help me!’" (Mat. 15:25).
So Christ is called "God," and did not consider it pillaging to be "equal" with God, and was often "worshiped." So surely, even if Christ is not the third person of a trinity, He must at least be the second person of a duet! SURELY, HE IS NOT! Let me explain.
Jesus IS God! True, but this fact does NOT make Him the FATHER! Let us always read and believe the Scriptures. The English word "God" is translated from the Greek word Theos which means PLACER or DISPOSER. ANYONE to whom the Father gives such an office of "placer or disposer" is a God! Notice what God says in Psalm 82:6,
"I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High."
Jesus explains this verse for us:
"Jesus answered them, ‘Is it not written in your law, that ‘I say you are gods’? If He said those were gods, to whom the word of God came [and the scripture can not be annulled], are you saying to Him Whom the Father hallows and dispatches into the world that You are blaspheming,’ seeing that I said, ‘Son of God am I’? If I am not doing My Father’s works, do not believe Me. Yet if I am doing them, and if ever you are not believing Me, be believing the works, that you may be knowing and believing that in Me is the Father, and I am in the Father."
Okay then, let’s notice a few very important points. Jesus never came out and said "I AM GOD!" He always called Himself, "The Son OF God." Recall that Jesus did not consider it "pillaging" to be equal with God. That is, he didn’t need to steal, or take His office by FORCE, because His God, the Father, GAVE ALL THINGS TO HIM FREELY! Though Jesus is certainly "God," we must always remember that everything that made Him "God" (like His Father), WAS GIVEN TO HIM! Is there anyone who would suggest that someone GAVE God the Father all that He possesses? I think not. There is clearly a distinction--we have a "Father" and a "Son," NOT two equal Gods of a so-called trinity.
Notice that Jesus always acknowledges His subjection to His Father:
"Jesus, being aware that the Father has GIVEN ALL INTO HIS HANDS, and that He came out FROM God and is going away TO God" (John 13:3).
"Now the Father, remaining in Me, He IS DOING HIS WORKS" (John 14:10).
"And the word which you are hearing is NOT Mine, but the Father’s Who sends me" (John 14:24).
"I am going to the Father, for THE FATHER IS GREATER THAN I" (John 14:28).
"Now, whenever all may be subjected to Him, THE SON HIMSELF ALSO SHALL BE SUBJECTED TO HIM Who subjects all to Him, that God may be All in all" (I Cor. 15:28).
These Scriptures are clear, and there are many more like this. The Father is GREATER than His Son, and the Son will ALWAYS be subjected to His Father. They are NOT two, coequal Gods of a fabled trinity. They are "Father and Son." They are "FAMILY!" And the "spirit of God" is just that, the spirit "OF" God, not "the spirit God." And Jesus Christ has this SAME SPIRIT in Himself also. And it is THIS VERY SPIRIT that God the Father gives to US through His Son, Jesus Christ. It is not difficult to understand if one will simply believe the Scriptures.
Again, I want everyone to take note that when Christ speaks of the close relationship between Himself and His Father, He NEVER includes the "holy spirit" into that relationship! This is surely not an oversight on Christ’s part.
Our Lord gives us a beautiful metaphor in these same chapters of John. Jesus says:
"I am the true Grapevine, and My father is the Farmer... I am the Grapevine. You are the branches" (John 15:1 & 5).
Notice that the holy spirit is NO PART of this analogy. Now seriously, if the holy spirit were a third personality or god of the trinity, then why does it have NO PART in so many dozens and dozens of Scriptures like this one? Surely if there is a trinity, the holy spirit could represent maybe the soil, or the sunshine, or the rain, or at least be some part of this analogy with the Father, the Son, and the Saints, don’t you think? But no! The holy spirit is not mentioned. That is because it is not necessary for it to be mentioned, and also because it is not a third god of a trinity.
Gene, Hope this clarifies to some extent what Ray teaches regarding Jesus being God, but still in Subjection to the Father, but having the same Nature or Essence. The Conference Transcript: The Fathers Will and The Trinity paper should aid you, if you decide to read it.
Kind Regards, Samson.
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