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Spiritual Journey Dilemma
hillsbororiver:
Great find on the email Kat!
Doug I am in total agreement with you Brother, I believe you nailed it!
Peace,
Joe
hillsbororiver:
--- Quote from: Dave in Tenn on January 29, 2011, 05:56:20 PM ---
My dad had a good sense of humor and outlook. When his kids (my sisters and I) were young and complained about our aches and pains, sniffles and twinges, one of his favorite replies was to say "That's what happens just before you die."
--- End quote ---
Hi Dave,
I like your Dad already! My family also had a wry humor without regard to over sensitive young egos... ;)
Excellent post all the way through Brother.
Peace,
Joe
Stacey:
--- Quote from: DougE6 on January 30, 2011, 09:29:22 AM ---You know, as I reread through all this banter, specially between myself and John, I think it is the word "effort" that seems to be the hangup. I think that No free will and great effort coexist quite peacefully, and they do not contradict. Just because God arranges the causes, we still decide from our hearts condition, which God is very well aware of. And God does not do the actual lifting, so to speak. He makes us actually DO IT! It is in the doing that great effort can be required. It was very tough and took great effort for Jesus to carry out what God inspired Him and gave Him the heart to do. God never takes away the doing.
Ray has said this many times. From the opposite side, from an evil work, God may arrange the causes or circumstances that are in action when a child molestor does his ugly stuff. But God can hold and does hold the molestor accountable because he sins VOLUNTARILY. He sins from the heart, and his actions spring from his heart, even though it was inevitable that he would do what he did. He still is guilty, not God. God is not at fault or the sinner in the situation. Even though He steers eveything. The means, the man, still does the actual action, and this action requires effort, energy, and all that is required in doing an action.
My point still is the Bible is full of admonitions that we MUST judge ourselves against and strive to do. The Bible is a cause in this instance. As God changes our hearts, and gives us the strength, we can fulfill the admonitions and do the works. But we DO not know how far we are away from this obedience unless we try to obey. We must always try to obey, and more and more try to learn how to depend on God and let God, through this, change us so our preferences are the same as Jesus preferences. We MUST WRESTLE< IT IS NOT BIBLICAL TO NOT TRY TO OBEY>
--- End quote ---
Hi Doug, as I was reading aloud the back and forth between you and John I said to my wife, I believe they both right and agree with each other but I don't think they are agreeing to that yet! :)
Really enjoying this thread.
prarrydog:
I know this thread has gone in a bit of a different direction than the original post, but as I was checking the verse listed in the latest e-mail to ray "Homeless" I came across these verses which I think add a witness to what Joe was originally saying. Funny how that happens huh?
Isaiah 58 - NIV
1 “Shout it aloud, do not hold back.
Raise your voice like a trumpet.
Declare to my people their rebellion
and to the descendants of Jacob their sins.
2 For day after day they seek me out;
they seem eager to know my ways,
as if they were a nation that does what is right
and has not forsaken the commands of its God.
They ask me for just decisions
and seem eager for God to come near them.
3 ‘Why have we fasted,’ they say,
‘and you have not seen it?
Why have we humbled ourselves,
and you have not noticed?’
“Yet on the day of your fasting, you do as you please
and exploit all your workers.
4 Your fasting ends in quarreling and strife,
and in striking each other with wicked fists.
You cannot fast as you do today
and expect your voice to be heard on high.
5 Is this the kind of fast I have chosen,
only a day for people to humble themselves?
Is it only for bowing one’s head like a reed
and for lying in sackcloth and ashes?
Is that what you call a fast,
a day acceptable to the LORD?
6 “Is not this the kind of fasting I have chosen:
to loose the chains of injustice
and untie the cords of the yoke,
to set the oppressed free
and break every yoke?
7 Is it not to share your food with the hungry
and to provide the poor wanderer with shelter—
when you see the naked, to clothe them,
and not to turn away from your own flesh and blood?
8 Then your light will break forth like the dawn,
and your healing will quickly appear;
then your righteousness[a] will go before you,
and the glory of the LORD will be your rear guard.
9 Then you will call, and the LORD will answer;
you will cry for help, and he will say: Here am I.
With love
Scott
Deborah-Leigh:
God gives us BOTH, the desire to obey, AND the outcome.
Paul explains what it is like to try and fail, and to try and succeed.
The trying/effort, is caused by God.
THAT we try, is not trivialized or dismissed. It is simply of God to try or not to try ~ to succeed or not to succeed.
I am happy to see you again ChrisR! :)
Blessings
Arc
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