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Author Topic: No darkness in God  (Read 4148 times)

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DougE6

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No darkness in God
« on: January 31, 2011, 03:41:07 PM »

Rom 1:29  They were filled with all manner of unrighteousness, evil, covetousness, malice. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, maliciousness. They are gossips,
Rom 1:30  slanderers, haters of God, insolent, haughty, boastful, inventors of evil, disobedient to parents,
Rom 1:31  foolish, faithless, heartless, ruthless.
Rom 1:32  Though they know God's decree that those who practice such things deserve to die, they not only do them but give approval to those who practice them.
Gal 5:19  Now the works of the flesh are evident: sexual immorality, impurity, sensuality,
Gal 5:20  idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, rivalries, dissensions, divisions,
Gal 5:21  envy, drunkenness, orgies, and things like these. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

THIS IS ALL CALLED DARKNESS> NONE OF THESE THINGS ARE FOUND IN GOD.

1Jn 1:5  This is the message we have heard from him and proclaim to you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.

Gal 5:22  But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,
Gal 5:23  gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law.
Gal 5:24  And those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.
Gal 5:25  If we live by the Spirit, let us also walk by the Spirit.

So how does God, who is light, in whom is no darkness at all, use evil? In a completely different sense than we do!  When we do evil, we are being what the Bible describes above.  Yet God is never that way. You cannot say that any of those things in that first paragraph apply to God in any way, ever.  This is why I am careful about NOT saying things like "God actually murdered/killed/raped/kidnapped/whatever crime is in mind (even though He operates all things after the counsel of his own will)  Because NONE of those attributes, which are found in all and in those particular ungodly men,  those dark evils and attributes being the fundamental reason they actually carried through and  did whatever terrible evils which were done, are found in God!

God remains pure.  There is none of that darkness in Him.  When he uses evil, his reasons are much higher and extend from LOVE.  God would always have a high and lofty purpose in every action, even those actions which require the work of satan,  or the actions of ungodly men.

God created evil for TEMPORARY and good purposes. He uses it every day. He created Satan to do necessary things to bring out His great purposes. Eventually evil will no longer be needed and will die along with Death itself.

I invite comments on this.  I do fear that we are not wise enough, even in our language to properly explain. That is why his thoughts are higher than our thoughts, and His ways higher than our ways.  I do not want to say anything that will confuse this issue in any way.  I want to only say things that are Praiseworthy, Excellent, True and noble, and do not have any chance of being misunderstood.  I rejoice in that there is no free will, that keeps my feet firm, and that God is steering everything, that gives me hope,  But I rejoice even more that there is NO DARKNESS in God, or in anything He does, ever, because then I know His character is completely trustworthy.
« Last Edit: January 31, 2011, 05:19:46 PM by DougE6 »
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Stacey

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Re: No darkness in God
« Reply #1 on: January 31, 2011, 03:53:47 PM »

Doug,

To say that God does not kill goes against scripture, look at it.

Deu 32:39  See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god with me: I kill, and I make alive; I wound, and I heal: neither is there any that can deliver out of my hand.

Thats God saying very clearly that He is the one doing it. The killing, the wounding and the healing.

Respectfully,
Stacey
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Stacey

DougE6

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Re: No darkness in God
« Reply #2 on: January 31, 2011, 03:57:35 PM »

Hi Stacey

yes I know God kills. When God kills, He has no malice in his heart. Or never does He have any darkness that men have.

Thankyou for giving me the chance to clarify that.
Doug
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Kat

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Re: No darkness in God
« Reply #3 on: January 31, 2011, 04:29:58 PM »


Here is an email where Ray had an exchange with a man concerning what God ordains, that I think may shed some light on this subject.

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php?topic=3815.0 -------

Why does God pre-ordain for certain men to rape little girls?
Why does He preordain for this to happen?
 
Lee
 

Dear Lee:
We must be careful how we use words and phrases and also be careful not
to draw fallacious conclusions from Scriptural Truths. The Bible nowhere says
that God "pre-ordained" such sins. It says he has a fore-knowledge OF such
sins. Many people over the years have tried to force me into saying that God sins
and that God is evil, but I won't say it, because I don't believe it. God nowhere
says that He "ordains" sin, and so I don't say it either.
 
God did not "pre-ordain" me to eat Girl Scott cookies today, but I did. Man has
the ability to think, plan, create, imagine, and carry out these devised lusts of his
heart, and yes, God KNEW a long time ago just what we would do,  but nowhere
does it say that God "pre-ordained" our sins. We live and operate under law. We
automatically do certain things under certain stimuli. It does not need to be "pre-
ordained."
 
Maybe what you are really asking is why did God create humanity so that they would sin under all of these different stimuli?  But that's a topic too big for an email. Besides, I have covered these things many times in the articles on our site. If you look up ordain or ordained in a concordance, you will find that God has ordained dozens of things in the Scripture, but nowhere does it say He ordained particular sins.
v
v
v
I understand your frustration, but you are still lacking understanding. When a parent gives his teenager a little slack as we say, he knows that to some degree his teenager will abuse that liberty and do some things that are wrong. When he does, is the parent at fault? Did the parent actually commit the sin?  Is the parent guilty of the sin? Should the parent go to jail for the sin of his son? It is not as cut and dry as you would like it to be.

"I [the Lord] create EVIL...." (Isa. 4:7). Therefore, according to your simplistic approach to this subject, God IS EVIL, right?  If God creates evil, then HE IS EVIL, isn't He? How could it be any other way according to your reasoning?  If God creates a man who will rape a little girl, then GOD HIMSELF RAPED THAT LITTLE GIRL, right?  If God planned it: He did it. Right?  Wrong.

You would prefer that it be that simple and that crude, but it isn't. I am not denying that God had the foreknowledge of a particular rape, but I am not about to say that God pre-ordained that rape.  You can't conclude that: [1] God made humanity.  [2]  Humanity all sins.  [3] Therefore GOD IS SIN! The Scriptures tell us that "God CANNOT lie."  Yet we have several Scriptures that tell us God SENDS A LYING SPIRIT to deceive people. Therefore is God a LIAR when He tells us that He "CANNOT lie?"

Let me help you with the answer:  Why is it wrong for one man to kill another man, but it is not wrong for God to kill a man? Several reasons:  [1] Intent of heart. God kills out of righteousness.  [2]  God kills for the welfare of the one He kills.  [3] God has the power to bring back to life and rectify all wrongs and all evils, and is therefore FULLY JUSTIFIED IN ALL HIS WAYS.
v
v
v
What God "ordains" in the Bible carries the connotation of almost putting His "blessing" on the thing that is ordained. But as we cannot find anywhere in the Scriptures where God specifically ordains a specific SIN of humanity, such raping a little girl, I naturally took offense when the initial question in this little debate asked, why does God ORDAIN dirty old men to rape little children? (or words to that effect). There is a difference between God "fore-knowing" something and "fore-ORDAINING" something, although many refuse to see it.
 
Hence we have such doctrines as "God cannot look upon sin," which is the result of a miss-translation in the book of Habakkuk. Likewise it is untrue that the sacrificing of children to the god Molech "never entered God's MIND."  The proper translation is "HEART." Is there a difference between mind and heart? Yes. Is there a difference between God not tempting any man, but yet sends temptations? Yes. Is there a difference between God "CANNOT lie"  and sending a "LYING spirit?" Yes there is, but I don't have time to do a whole paper on this subject right now, because I am far behind in more important things. People have tried by the hundreds and thousands to trip me up over the years to insinuate that if what I teach regarding the foreknowledge and Sovereignty of God is true, then they present a dozen ways in which that would mean God is the AUTHOR OF SIN, or that God Himself IS EVIL. If God KNOWS in advance that people will commit certain sins, then isn't he "condoning" such sin? If they are a necessary part of His Plan and Purpose do they not work and work good. Therefore are not all these things "good?" Therefore isn't raping little children and cutting their heads off, a GOOD THING?  Can you see where this kind of thinking leads?
 
I have no objection to a question like: "Why does God allow evil in the world?" I can answer that question. But, someone asks: "Why does God ORDAIN men to rape children?" that offends my spirit.. I will cover it in a future paper, but I just don't have the time right now, but I also didn't want everyone to think that I am avoiding the question or the many responses to it.   Hope you will all be patient.
 
God be with you,
Ray

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DougE6

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Re: No darkness in God
« Reply #4 on: January 31, 2011, 04:36:43 PM »

thank you Kat for that email. I looked for that for hours, could not find it, but I remembered it. It was part of the reason for my post.
Doug
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Deborah-Leigh

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Re: No darkness in God
« Reply #5 on: January 31, 2011, 05:48:55 PM »



God is Absolute.

We are are His Relatives.

That means there are areas of duality in us, but not in God.  We shall be as God is, when God completes us in His Image.

Arc
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lostANDfound

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Re: No darkness in God
« Reply #6 on: January 31, 2011, 06:53:25 PM »

i admit the topic of this thread is a slippery slope for me.  my mind seems to turn to static when i get too close to certain ideas.  so how is "fore-ordained" different than "caused"? 
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Kat

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Re: No darkness in God
« Reply #7 on: January 31, 2011, 07:18:41 PM »


Hi lostandfound,

I found another email, see it this will help a bit more.

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php?topic=2354.0 -------------

Dear Whirlwind:

You are not understanding this subject and the principle behind it. You ask: "Is it man making the choices or is it God's predestination of things?"  It is BOTH.  Listen:  God is SOVEREIGN! Man therefore has NO FREE WILL OR NO FREE CHOICE.  That's it. That's all there is to it.  That IS the principle. That IS the Truth.  That IS what the Bible teaches.  It is not a contradiction to say that "Man makes his own choices."  You and millions of other just think it is a contradiction to say man makes his own choices if indeed God is sovereign and God is behind all in His creation.  It is not a contradiction. It only sounds like a contradiction for those who do not believe that "God is Sovereign, and Man has no free will."

I hardly know what else to tell you.  God made man's heart. Man did not make his own heart, or his body, or his mind, or his brain, or his will, or his hopes and dreams.  They are all PREDESTINATED by the foreknowledge of God.  So then we don't make choices, right?  NO, NO, NO, NO, NO, NO....WE DO MAKE CHOICES.  It's just that they are CAUSED by things we can't always see.  Sometimes we can see what makes our choices and some times we can't, but either way THEY ARE CAUSED.  And God, not us, already knows in advance the outcome of all of those caused choices. How does He do that?  He is very smart (has over a 150 IQ), plus HE IS SOVEREIGN, ALL WISE, AND ALL POWERFUL.....and don't forget LOVE.

So, does God FORCE EVIL MEN TO RAPE LITTLE GIRLS?  Well, does He?  Does God being Sovereign prove that God forces evil men to rape little girls?  That's what evil theologians deduce from the truth of no free will.  They turn the Sovereignty of God into one of the biggest evils in the universe. If God is Sovereign, then God must be EVIL, because there is so much evil in the world, and God is in control of all things, right?  Wrong, wrong, wrong!  

Man makes all his own choices. Just because they are CAUSED does not mean that he does not make them.  He is, in fact, CAUSED TO MAKE HIS CHOICES. But God does not directly do this. He is responsible, but He does not directly cause those choices. Things like the Devil do such things.  And who created the Devil?  That's right, that One Who is Sovereign and in charge of all things.  Evil men like raping just like evil theologians like stealing widow's social security money.  God doesn't make them do it--THEY LIKE TO DO IT.  They volunteer with little outside influence.  God made humanity this way. He created them spiritually weak.  Eve couldn't help but sin.  God has a good purpose and God will straighten it all out in the end.

I guess I could just keep writing and writing and writing and one day someone will say................OHHHHHH, now I get it.  Maybe today is your day. I'm pulling for ya!!!

God be with you,

Ray

« Last Edit: January 31, 2011, 07:24:42 PM by Kat »
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Samson

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Re: No darkness in God
« Reply #8 on: January 31, 2011, 09:19:33 PM »

Hi Doug,

After reading the last Thread(the one locked-Spiritual Journey) and continuing with this Thread, I thought it might help to explain the difference between EVIL & WICKED OR WICKEDNESS. Some might conclude that there isn't any difference. We know from Our studies that God created Evil and We know that God used, uses and in the future will use Evil for a good purpose. The fact that God created Evil and uses it, does not mean that He is Evil. Since He created it, He must have a thorough knowledge of it and be able to use it at the right time and for the right circumstances. He has a perfect(flawless)use of it. The Hebrew Word for  Evil is "Ra" and does not necessarily have any Moral Bias or implication. It doesn't have to be the result of a wicked act through the desire of another Human. To illustrate: If I slipped & fell down the steps and sprained My ankle, that would or could be an experience of Evil. No Human Being committed a wicked act by pushing me down the steps or had a desire to do so. The outcome(sprained ankle) of falling down the steps(A Cause) was not the result of a wicked Act of another Human. God planned or purposed(Greek-Boulema) that I fall down the steps, but some ultimate good, not readily seen by Me will eventually occur and I may not be conscious of what that is in the present time. At the time this event happened, there was nothing good that was perceived by that individual.

Orthodox Bible Scholars seem to Use Evil(Greek- Poneros & Kakos) somewhat interchangeably with Wickedness. That which results from Pain, sorrow, distress can be classified as Evil(Greek-Kakos), but not necessarily Greek-Poneros which is Evil resulting from the wicked act of others. The Hebrew Ra depends on the context in the sense of the purpose or motive behind the Evil Act.

To sum up the distinction between Evil and Wicked when considering God and Humans and the use thereof. When God uses Evil, it's not a wicked malicious act or motive, but has as it's ultimate purpose of Good. When Humans bring Evil upon someone, it's a wicked act and never has the intention of bringing about a good outcome. Unfortunately, in several cases, based on my word research of the Greek words used for Evil & Wicked(Kakos, Poneros & others) when mentioning someone committing an Evil Act, it would probably be better translated as wicked, but they use these words synonymously. Poneros signifies that which is worthless in a physical sense and wicked or evil in a moral sense. Kakos is more related to the results of Evil.

Also, God has purposed(Greek-Boulema) that everyone goes against His Will(Greek-Thelema). It's part of God's plan that Man goes against His Will, but nobody goes against His purpose.

                             My two cents, Samson.
« Last Edit: February 01, 2011, 12:10:24 AM by Samson »
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DougE6

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Re: No darkness in God
« Reply #9 on: January 31, 2011, 10:50:13 PM »

Hi Samson
I appreciate your input distinguishing between an evil act and a wicked act.  That might help me explain what I was having the difficulty I had with in that locked thread you mentioned(spiritual journey).  I saw the statement" (that God in reality was actually the one who killed the 6 million Jews)-in reference to Hitler etc;  as attributing a wicked act to God. I found that offensive.  The perpetrators of those acts were extremely wicked men who committed an extremely wicked act.  I can not bring myself to agree with that statement, that was the very crux of the debate, when things became intense by me.
I totally agree with your statement that Gods use of evil is flawless. I agree He created it for a good purpose, to be part of changing us into His very image. As God has a great understanding of good and evil, as His children, He wants us to have this very same understanding.
I was heartened that Ray seems to agree with my reluctance to say such a statement, about a wicked act concerning the Jews.  In the one email Kat posted, Ray wrote...   If God creates a man who will rape a little girl, then GOD HIMSELF RAPED THAT LITTLE GIRL, right?  If God planned it: He did it. Right?  Wrong.   I see this as a strong affirmation that Ray also, who has a great understanding of these issues, that he would never say that In reality God is the one who killed the 6 million Jews. Ray summed up his thoughts thusly in that email...I have no objection to a question like: "Why does God allow evil in the world?" I can answer that question. But, someone asks: "Why does God ORDAIN men to rape children?" that offends my spirit.. I will cover it in a future paper, but I just don't have the time right now, but I also didn't want everyone to think that I am avoiding the question or the many responses to it.   Hope you will all be patient. 

This thread was merely my attempt to show how differently I see Gods use of evil and mans use of evil, and Gods character vs mans character.  And because of this vast difference, I cannot help but take offence to a simplistic view based entirely on the truths of Gods sovereignity and no free will that ignoring another great  truth that " in God their is no darkness at all" and by not taking this third truth into account can categorically state that God actually is the one who did those crimes, I mean the wicked ones that man does, like raping little girls or killing 6 million in concentration camps.  I an not denying the other two truths, I am saying this third truth when properly understood, shows that one is amiss is saying God did actually kill these people even though He is ultimately responsible for everything.
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lauriellen

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Re: No darkness in God
« Reply #10 on: February 01, 2011, 12:30:48 AM »

quotes from ray:
"God is SOVEREIGN!", "God made man's heart.", "He (man)is, in fact, CAUSED TO MAKE HIS CHOICES.",  "We live and operate under law. We automatically do certain things under certain stimuli." "Why is it wrong for one man to kill another man, but it is not wrong for God to kill a man? Several reasons:  [1] Intent of heart. God kills out of righteousness.  [2]  God kills for the welfare of the one He kills.  [3] God has the power to bring back to life and rectify all wrongs and all evils, and is therefore FULLY JUSTIFIED IN ALL HIS WAYS.", "God doesn't make them do it--THEY LIKE TO DO IT.  They volunteer with little outside influence.  God made humanity this way. He created them spiritually weak." end quotes.
i do truely believe all of these statements by ray are true. my question is, just as this scripture says: "Psa 7:11  God is a righteous judge; and God is angry with evildoers every day." and Rev 19:15  "And out of His mouth goes forth a sharp sword, that with it He might smite the nations. And He will shepherd them with an iron rod. And He treads the winepress of the wine of the anger and of the wrath of God Almighty." and many other scriptures speak of the anger, wrath ect of God.
and we know this anger, wrath, ect of God is not a sin, because the scriptures say : Deu 32:4  He is the Rock; His work is perfect. For all His ways are just, a God of faithfulness, and without evil; just and upright is He.

so...my question is, is it a sin for us to be ANGRY about all of the evil that mankind has suffered, angry that God made us weak and subject to sin, angry because of the circumstances that God controls that make us choose to sin?
because, in all truthfulness, i do get REALLY ANGRY when i see all of the sufferring, troubles, heartache, misery, death, destruction around me.

 Rom 8:20  because the creation was subjected to frustration, though not by its own choice. The one who subjected it did so in the hope.
Rom 8:20  For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,

 


 
   
 
 
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Dave in Tenn

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Re: No darkness in God
« Reply #11 on: February 01, 2011, 02:59:32 AM »

Lauriellen, I'm going to give this a stab.  If I've understood it wrong, I am MORE than willing to be cut off at the knees because it's much easier to be angry, and I am kind of lazy.

The verse that many quote to justify so-called 'righteous anger' in men is:

Eph 4:26,27  Be ye angry, and sin not: let not the sun go down upon your wrath:  Neither give place to the devil.

But that's kind of convoluted English these days 400 years after King James.  What the Greek is really saying is "are you angry and not sinning?"  that is, "isn't your anger/indignation sin?"  The implied answer is 'YES...my anger IS Sin.  Do not let the sun set still finding me sinning."

That shows an understanding of God that we are designed to GET angry, just as we are designed to lust, covet, etc. etc.  It's our reaction to these carnal 'stimuli' that matters.

No doubt about it.  The New Covenant is harder than the Old one.  It gets down to the deepest, darkest, nakedest secrets of our hearts.

I always have to remember when looking at the evil of the world that not all of it has been brought about by others.  I bear my share of blame.  Lest I think I don't, James sets me straight.

Jas 2:10  For anyone who keeps all the law, but makes a slip in one point, is judged to have gone against it all.
 
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Heb 10:32  But you must continue to remember those earlier days, how after you were enlightened you endured a hard and painful struggle.

Chris R

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Re: No darkness in God
« Reply #12 on: February 01, 2011, 08:37:40 AM »

I liked Rays response, "God has the power to bring back to life and rectify all wrongs and all evils, and is therefore FULLY JUSTIFIED IN ALL HIS WAYS.",

Wow, if you dwell on that quote long enough, you begin to see more clear.  We can only think in human terms, there is Life, and there is Death, God does not think like we do [thank goodness]....ALL will be made Right.

It's sorta like when your parents knew beforehand something good was going to come out of something bad, The way they would look at you and say, "You'll See!" well I reckon one day we will all See!

Chris R
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lostANDfound

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Re: No darkness in God
« Reply #13 on: February 01, 2011, 10:19:00 AM »

some thoughts on this topic:
i went to bed thinking about what lauriellen said about anger, except i was more tossing around this idea: so God makes us sinning machines, then gets mad at us for sinning.  he creates us to prefer evil things, and then gets angry that we prefer evil things.  how can we understand this?
this morning as i was looking up the verses lauriellen quoted in the concordant version i got a different picture.

Psa 7:11 Elohim is the righteous Judge;
            El holds indignation every day;

and looking up the word "indignation" led me to see that it's an anger about unjustness, and then looking up anger i find it's an emotion, producing accelerated heart palpitations, etc.  where am i going with this?   well obviously God doesn't have accelerated heart palpitations, but does he have emotions?  does he feel love, or does he act in love?  does he feel anger, or does he act in anger to rectify our evil ways?  maybe He feels and acts according to emotions. (i actually doubt it, emotions are more reactionary and it doesn't seem that God would be subject to emotions which He would react to.) but if nothing else i think i can understand how He creates us to prefer evil things, and then gets angry that we prefer evil things if the anger is more about ACTING in anger or "purposefully doing holy righteous anger" in order to rectify our sinfulness.
feel free to hit me with all kinds of scripture. i do realize these are just loose thoughts and not the kind of scripturally entrenched material we're used to here.
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Kat

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Re: No darkness in God
« Reply #14 on: February 01, 2011, 10:32:17 AM »


Hi lauriellen,

I think we all get angry with the evil we see in the world, but this is a carnal response. As we come to know God and understand His plan, we should begin to see things a bit differently. We have been blessed with understanding and that gives us a different view of what is happening in this world.

Mat 5:44  But I say to you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you,
v. 45  that you may be sons of your Father in heaven; for He makes His sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust

This is a spiritual truth that few people comprehend. Only with the indwelling of the Holy Spirit can any truly "love your enemies."

But we are to come to completely love and trust God and all that He is doing, only then can we begin to understand and even come to appreciate what He is doing now.

Mar 12:28  Then one of the scribes came, and having heard them reasoning together, perceiving that He had answered them well, asked Him, "Which is the first commandment of all?"
v. 29  Jesus answered him, "The first of all the commandments is: "Hear, O Israel, the LORD our God, the LORD is one.
v. 30  And you shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your mind, and with all your strength.' This is the first commandment.
v.31  And the second, like it, is this: "You shall love your neighbor as yourself.' There is no other commandment greater than these."
v. 32  So the scribe said to Him, "Well said, Teacher. You have spoken the truth, for there is one God, and there is no other but He.
v. 33  And to love Him with all the heart, with all the understanding, with all the soul, and with all the strength, and to love one's neighbor as oneself, is more than all the whole burnt offerings and sacrifices."
v. 34  Now when Jesus saw that he answered wisely, He said to him, "You are not far from the kingdom of God.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

p.s. Hi Chris, so good to have you posting again  :)

« Last Edit: February 01, 2011, 10:46:57 AM by Kat »
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lauriellen

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Re: No darkness in God
« Reply #15 on: February 01, 2011, 03:40:16 PM »

i understand that we are to love trust obey & have faith without question in God and who are we to question His ways? i also know that i am unable to do this with a pure heart on my own.
in all honesty, who amoung us here would not be angry if:

we were a jew, and our whole family was slaughtered in a german prison camp?

an ethiopian parent consigned to watch all of her children slowly & painfully starve to death?

a parent whose child had been abducted by a child molester, tortured, raped then murdered?

i could go on and on....but i am sure you get my drift. is it a sin for us to be angry about these things, just as God himself is angry about sin?

we are commanded to LOVE...but it hurts SO MUCH to love someone (humanity) and then watch them suffer. it is my human nature to harden myself against this love to keep from going crazy over the pain and injustice in this life, of which i know i am helpless to ease, but God none-the-less commands us to love & have a soft heart.  the love for humanity that i believe God has given me is a raw pain that only He can bear in us.
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DougE6

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Re: No darkness in God
« Reply #16 on: February 01, 2011, 05:54:13 PM »

Hi Lauriellen

we were a jew, and our whole family was slaughtered in a german prison camp?
an ethiopian parent consigned to watch all of her children slowly & painfully starve to death?
a parent whose child had been abducted by a child molester, tortured, raped then murdered?
i could go on and on....but i am sure you get my drift. is it a sin for us to be angry about these things, just as God himself is angry about sin?

Those are really really difficult things for us to grasp. The magnitude of the suffering of some, the magnitude of the wickedness found in human hearts, displayed by the gleeful and unfeeling and selfish atrocities and incredible cruelties and depraved indifference and the depth of tortures that have been done in human history. I know I have secretly fantasized how nice it would be to be a King, with absolute say, to be able to take some perpetrator of some grievous wrong and then be able to haul them before me to make them give account and then issue a just sentence. The sentence would allow them to somehow get a feel for the magnitude of their wrong, to be in their victims place, to feel what that was like,  to allow them to relearn an empathy that they have hardened away in their evil selfishness or are simply missing, and then make them come to deepest shameful repentance.  Somehow that fantasy, I think, is not far from the reality that will be facing many, in the lake of fire.  I do not think such feelings like that, are wrong.  We are to hate unrighteousness, to hate wickedness, and love righteousness.  But whatever part of that fantasy is fueled by carnal self righteousness or a desire to wreak vengeance, I think that is wrong.

Because for now, our task is to remember this, but there for the grace of God, go I. And to love our enemies. Why should we love our enemies? because God loves them, and Jesus died for them. And to show that we are qualified to judge them.  No one is truly qualified to judge another unless in addition to a full complete knowledge of circumstance and justice and mercy they have a heart that actually loves, because only in love will a sentence be passed on that actually has the best interest of the perpetrator in mind. We are interested in them becoming like Christ!  Because we were in that same situation once, needing mercy and also having our eyes opened. having our eyes opened is so important. Do you think those people who commit those wrongs would be so full of evil acts if there understanding was opened to be as the converted? To see and know how evil they were being?  Many people who commit grievous wickedness are self deceived and self righteous; feeling completely justified in their own eyes, when they commit such atrocities. I doubt Hitler went to bed every nite feeling bad about any Jew he gassed. No, he probably felt he was doing the world a favor, to rid the world of such. 

So we need to become quite different than our former carnal selves. we need to be able to see all this through the righteous, loving, pure, merciful, judging eyes of Christ. 

I am happy I am not called to be the IGNOBLE vessel that God needs to show the depth of how far callous depravity can go, like that of Idi Amin, Stalin, Hitler, etc. Someone has to be the most IGNOBLE of the IGNOBLE vessels, to show how far, how rotten, how despicable, how worthy of the strongest opprobrium, rampant unchecked evil can go. Some peoples acts have to be on the furthest evil extremes.  Likewise, some people are chose to be NOBLE vessels, to be vessels of gold and silver, that   show God's  Love, Justice, Mercy, Lovingkindness, Forgiveness, and all the fruits of the spirit to a world where the radical calling of Christ seems utterly foolish.  May we when we see evil, and become downcast, pray that we can become NOBLE vessels, vessels that will shine in a dark world, that in our shining and striving, that we can overcome even ourselves, so that we can sit with Christ on His throne when He comes into His Kingdom.

All of this evil, is just as it must and has to be, for God to reach His objective.  God is building a family, and we need to know experientially and with great pain, these invaluable lessons.  And then we MUST learn how LOVE, the LOVE OF GOD, can conquer even these most evil and most wrong and unrighteousness acts.  I want to be part of Jesus bring all creation under His feet.  Oh, we need to fix our sight on the goal.  We need to guard our hearts and understanding, and fulfill the hardest of Jesus commands, like for example, Loving our enemies.
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Kat

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Re: No darkness in God
« Reply #17 on: February 01, 2011, 06:16:30 PM »


Hi lauriellen,

I really do sympathize with what you are saying, these evil things are a hard thing to realize. But we are in the middle of all this and that makes us very sensitive to suffering. We have hope, because we know the truth to where is all going.

Remember we have Job as an example, all manners of evil befall him. God answered him concerning his plight, it seems from our prospective we lose sight of who God.

Job 40:1  And the LORD said to Job:
v. 2  "Shall a faultfinder contend with the Almighty? He who argues with God, let him answer it."
v. 3  Then Job answered the LORD:
v. 4  "Behold, I am of small account; what shall I answer thee? I lay my hand on my mouth.
v. 5  I have spoken once, and I will not answer; twice, but I will proceed no further."
v. 6  Then the LORD answered Job out of the whirlwind:
v. 7  "Gird up your loins like a man; I will question you, and you declare to me.
v. 8  Will you even put me in the wrong? Will you condemn me that you may be justified?
v. 9  Have you an arm like God, and can you thunder with a voice like his?
v. 10  "Deck yourself with majesty and dignity; clothe yourself with glory and splendor.
v. 11  Pour forth the overflowings of your anger, and look on every one that is proud, and abase him.
v. 12  Look on every one that is proud, and bring him low; and tread down the wicked where they stand.
v. 13  Hide them all in the dust together; bind their faces in the world below.
v. 14  Then will I also acknowledge to you, that your own right hand can give you victory.

Job 42:1  Then Job answered the LORD:
v. 2  "I know that thou canst do all things, and that no purpose of thine can be thwarted.
v. 3  'Who is this that hides counsel without knowledge?' Therefore I have uttered what I did not understand, things too wonderful for me, which I did not know.
v. 4  'Hear, and I will speak; I will question you, and you declare to me.'
v. 5  I had heard of thee by the hearing of the ear, but now my eye sees thee;
v. 6  therefore I despise myself, and repent in dust and ashes."

I am not saying we shouldn't have emotions and feel sorrow for the suffering in the world. But we have to keep things in perspective, we can't see the whole picture from where we are.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

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lauriellen

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Re: No darkness in God
« Reply #18 on: February 01, 2011, 06:50:39 PM »

shall i be angry with God who has proven His love for us all, absolutely, in that he gave His only begotten Son to die a horrible death so that we might live? so that we might become sons & daughters of God?

shall i be angry with the evil-doers who are only behaving in the weakness and vain state in which they were created, subject to the law of sin & death, not willingly, but according to Him that created them so?

I do absolutely have hope & trust in God, but i am angry at 'what must be' none-the-less. perhaps when God sees fit to bring me into a 'full knowledge' of the truth will i stop seeing this life thru the darkened glass and be able to understand 'WHY' these things must be so and be free of this anger.

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Kat

  • Guest
Re: No darkness in God
« Reply #19 on: February 01, 2011, 07:31:56 PM »


Hi lauriellen,

Well it is hard and anger is a way to express that frustration. I do try to understand that we can only see things as God reveals them to us.

mercy, peace and love
Kat
« Last Edit: February 01, 2011, 07:48:23 PM by Kat »
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