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No darkness in God
lauriellen:
quotes from ray:
"God is SOVEREIGN!", "God made man's heart.", "He (man)is, in fact, CAUSED TO MAKE HIS CHOICES.", "We live and operate under law. We automatically do certain things under certain stimuli." "Why is it wrong for one man to kill another man, but it is not wrong for God to kill a man? Several reasons: [1] Intent of heart. God kills out of righteousness. [2] God kills for the welfare of the one He kills. [3] God has the power to bring back to life and rectify all wrongs and all evils, and is therefore FULLY JUSTIFIED IN ALL HIS WAYS.", "God doesn't make them do it--THEY LIKE TO DO IT. They volunteer with little outside influence. God made humanity this way. He created them spiritually weak." end quotes.
i do truely believe all of these statements by ray are true. my question is, just as this scripture says: "Psa 7:11 God is a righteous judge; and God is angry with evildoers every day." and Rev 19:15 "And out of His mouth goes forth a sharp sword, that with it He might smite the nations. And He will shepherd them with an iron rod. And He treads the winepress of the wine of the anger and of the wrath of God Almighty." and many other scriptures speak of the anger, wrath ect of God.
and we know this anger, wrath, ect of God is not a sin, because the scriptures say : Deu 32:4 He is the Rock; His work is perfect. For all His ways are just, a God of faithfulness, and without evil; just and upright is He.
so...my question is, is it a sin for us to be ANGRY about all of the evil that mankind has suffered, angry that God made us weak and subject to sin, angry because of the circumstances that God controls that make us choose to sin?
because, in all truthfulness, i do get REALLY ANGRY when i see all of the sufferring, troubles, heartache, misery, death, destruction around me.
Rom 8:20 because the creation was subjected to frustration, though not by its own choice. The one who subjected it did so in the hope.
Rom 8:20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,
Dave in Tenn:
Lauriellen, I'm going to give this a stab. If I've understood it wrong, I am MORE than willing to be cut off at the knees because it's much easier to be angry, and I am kind of lazy.
The verse that many quote to justify so-called 'righteous anger' in men is:
Eph 4:26,27 Be ye angry, and sin not: let not the sun go down upon your wrath: Neither give place to the devil.
But that's kind of convoluted English these days 400 years after King James. What the Greek is really saying is "are you angry and not sinning?" that is, "isn't your anger/indignation sin?" The implied answer is 'YES...my anger IS Sin. Do not let the sun set still finding me sinning."
That shows an understanding of God that we are designed to GET angry, just as we are designed to lust, covet, etc. etc. It's our reaction to these carnal 'stimuli' that matters.
No doubt about it. The New Covenant is harder than the Old one. It gets down to the deepest, darkest, nakedest secrets of our hearts.
I always have to remember when looking at the evil of the world that not all of it has been brought about by others. I bear my share of blame. Lest I think I don't, James sets me straight.
Jas 2:10 For anyone who keeps all the law, but makes a slip in one point, is judged to have gone against it all.
Chris R:
I liked Rays response, "God has the power to bring back to life and rectify all wrongs and all evils, and is therefore FULLY JUSTIFIED IN ALL HIS WAYS.",
Wow, if you dwell on that quote long enough, you begin to see more clear. We can only think in human terms, there is Life, and there is Death, God does not think like we do [thank goodness]....ALL will be made Right.
It's sorta like when your parents knew beforehand something good was going to come out of something bad, The way they would look at you and say, "You'll See!" well I reckon one day we will all See!
Chris R
lostANDfound:
some thoughts on this topic:
i went to bed thinking about what lauriellen said about anger, except i was more tossing around this idea: so God makes us sinning machines, then gets mad at us for sinning. he creates us to prefer evil things, and then gets angry that we prefer evil things. how can we understand this?
this morning as i was looking up the verses lauriellen quoted in the concordant version i got a different picture.
Psa 7:11 Elohim is the righteous Judge;
El holds indignation every day;
and looking up the word "indignation" led me to see that it's an anger about unjustness, and then looking up anger i find it's an emotion, producing accelerated heart palpitations, etc. where am i going with this? well obviously God doesn't have accelerated heart palpitations, but does he have emotions? does he feel love, or does he act in love? does he feel anger, or does he act in anger to rectify our evil ways? maybe He feels and acts according to emotions. (i actually doubt it, emotions are more reactionary and it doesn't seem that God would be subject to emotions which He would react to.) but if nothing else i think i can understand how He creates us to prefer evil things, and then gets angry that we prefer evil things if the anger is more about ACTING in anger or "purposefully doing holy righteous anger" in order to rectify our sinfulness.
feel free to hit me with all kinds of scripture. i do realize these are just loose thoughts and not the kind of scripturally entrenched material we're used to here.
Kat:
Hi lauriellen,
I think we all get angry with the evil we see in the world, but this is a carnal response. As we come to know God and understand His plan, we should begin to see things a bit differently. We have been blessed with understanding and that gives us a different view of what is happening in this world.
Mat 5:44 But I say to you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you,
v. 45 that you may be sons of your Father in heaven; for He makes His sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust
This is a spiritual truth that few people comprehend. Only with the indwelling of the Holy Spirit can any truly "love your enemies."
But we are to come to completely love and trust God and all that He is doing, only then can we begin to understand and even come to appreciate what He is doing now.
Mar 12:28 Then one of the scribes came, and having heard them reasoning together, perceiving that He had answered them well, asked Him, "Which is the first commandment of all?"
v. 29 Jesus answered him, "The first of all the commandments is: "Hear, O Israel, the LORD our God, the LORD is one.
v. 30 And you shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your mind, and with all your strength.' This is the first commandment.
v.31 And the second, like it, is this: "You shall love your neighbor as yourself.' There is no other commandment greater than these."
v. 32 So the scribe said to Him, "Well said, Teacher. You have spoken the truth, for there is one God, and there is no other but He.
v. 33 And to love Him with all the heart, with all the understanding, with all the soul, and with all the strength, and to love one's neighbor as oneself, is more than all the whole burnt offerings and sacrifices."
v. 34 Now when Jesus saw that he answered wisely, He said to him, "You are not far from the kingdom of God.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
p.s. Hi Chris, so good to have you posting again :)
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