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No darkness in God
Deborah-Leigh:
God is Absolute.
We are are His Relatives.
That means there are areas of duality in us, but not in God. We shall be as God is, when God completes us in His Image.
Arc
lostANDfound:
i admit the topic of this thread is a slippery slope for me. my mind seems to turn to static when i get too close to certain ideas. so how is "fore-ordained" different than "caused"?
Kat:
Hi lostandfound,
I found another email, see it this will help a bit more.
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php?topic=2354.0 -------------
Dear Whirlwind:
You are not understanding this subject and the principle behind it. You ask: "Is it man making the choices or is it God's predestination of things?" It is BOTH. Listen: God is SOVEREIGN! Man therefore has NO FREE WILL OR NO FREE CHOICE. That's it. That's all there is to it. That IS the principle. That IS the Truth. That IS what the Bible teaches. It is not a contradiction to say that "Man makes his own choices." You and millions of other just think it is a contradiction to say man makes his own choices if indeed God is sovereign and God is behind all in His creation. It is not a contradiction. It only sounds like a contradiction for those who do not believe that "God is Sovereign, and Man has no free will."
I hardly know what else to tell you. God made man's heart. Man did not make his own heart, or his body, or his mind, or his brain, or his will, or his hopes and dreams. They are all PREDESTINATED by the foreknowledge of God. So then we don't make choices, right? NO, NO, NO, NO, NO, NO....WE DO MAKE CHOICES. It's just that they are CAUSED by things we can't always see. Sometimes we can see what makes our choices and some times we can't, but either way THEY ARE CAUSED. And God, not us, already knows in advance the outcome of all of those caused choices. How does He do that? He is very smart (has over a 150 IQ), plus HE IS SOVEREIGN, ALL WISE, AND ALL POWERFUL.....and don't forget LOVE.
So, does God FORCE EVIL MEN TO RAPE LITTLE GIRLS? Well, does He? Does God being Sovereign prove that God forces evil men to rape little girls? That's what evil theologians deduce from the truth of no free will. They turn the Sovereignty of God into one of the biggest evils in the universe. If God is Sovereign, then God must be EVIL, because there is so much evil in the world, and God is in control of all things, right? Wrong, wrong, wrong!
Man makes all his own choices. Just because they are CAUSED does not mean that he does not make them. He is, in fact, CAUSED TO MAKE HIS CHOICES. But God does not directly do this. He is responsible, but He does not directly cause those choices. Things like the Devil do such things. And who created the Devil? That's right, that One Who is Sovereign and in charge of all things. Evil men like raping just like evil theologians like stealing widow's social security money. God doesn't make them do it--THEY LIKE TO DO IT. They volunteer with little outside influence. God made humanity this way. He created them spiritually weak. Eve couldn't help but sin. God has a good purpose and God will straighten it all out in the end.
I guess I could just keep writing and writing and writing and one day someone will say................OHHHHHH, now I get it. Maybe today is your day. I'm pulling for ya!!!
God be with you,
Ray
Samson:
Hi Doug,
After reading the last Thread(the one locked-Spiritual Journey) and continuing with this Thread, I thought it might help to explain the difference between EVIL & WICKED OR WICKEDNESS. Some might conclude that there isn't any difference. We know from Our studies that God created Evil and We know that God used, uses and in the future will use Evil for a good purpose. The fact that God created Evil and uses it, does not mean that He is Evil. Since He created it, He must have a thorough knowledge of it and be able to use it at the right time and for the right circumstances. He has a perfect(flawless)use of it. The Hebrew Word for Evil is "Ra" and does not necessarily have any Moral Bias or implication. It doesn't have to be the result of a wicked act through the desire of another Human. To illustrate: If I slipped & fell down the steps and sprained My ankle, that would or could be an experience of Evil. No Human Being committed a wicked act by pushing me down the steps or had a desire to do so. The outcome(sprained ankle) of falling down the steps(A Cause) was not the result of a wicked Act of another Human. God planned or purposed(Greek-Boulema) that I fall down the steps, but some ultimate good, not readily seen by Me will eventually occur and I may not be conscious of what that is in the present time. At the time this event happened, there was nothing good that was perceived by that individual.
Orthodox Bible Scholars seem to Use Evil(Greek- Poneros & Kakos) somewhat interchangeably with Wickedness. That which results from Pain, sorrow, distress can be classified as Evil(Greek-Kakos), but not necessarily Greek-Poneros which is Evil resulting from the wicked act of others. The Hebrew Ra depends on the context in the sense of the purpose or motive behind the Evil Act.
To sum up the distinction between Evil and Wicked when considering God and Humans and the use thereof. When God uses Evil, it's not a wicked malicious act or motive, but has as it's ultimate purpose of Good. When Humans bring Evil upon someone, it's a wicked act and never has the intention of bringing about a good outcome. Unfortunately, in several cases, based on my word research of the Greek words used for Evil & Wicked(Kakos, Poneros & others) when mentioning someone committing an Evil Act, it would probably be better translated as wicked, but they use these words synonymously. Poneros signifies that which is worthless in a physical sense and wicked or evil in a moral sense. Kakos is more related to the results of Evil.
Also, God has purposed(Greek-Boulema) that everyone goes against His Will(Greek-Thelema). It's part of God's plan that Man goes against His Will, but nobody goes against His purpose.
My two cents, Samson.
DougE6:
Hi Samson
I appreciate your input distinguishing between an evil act and a wicked act. That might help me explain what I was having the difficulty I had with in that locked thread you mentioned(spiritual journey). I saw the statement" (that God in reality was actually the one who killed the 6 million Jews)-in reference to Hitler etc; as attributing a wicked act to God. I found that offensive. The perpetrators of those acts were extremely wicked men who committed an extremely wicked act. I can not bring myself to agree with that statement, that was the very crux of the debate, when things became intense by me.
I totally agree with your statement that Gods use of evil is flawless. I agree He created it for a good purpose, to be part of changing us into His very image. As God has a great understanding of good and evil, as His children, He wants us to have this very same understanding.
I was heartened that Ray seems to agree with my reluctance to say such a statement, about a wicked act concerning the Jews. In the one email Kat posted, Ray wrote... If God creates a man who will rape a little girl, then GOD HIMSELF RAPED THAT LITTLE GIRL, right? If God planned it: He did it. Right? Wrong. I see this as a strong affirmation that Ray also, who has a great understanding of these issues, that he would never say that In reality God is the one who killed the 6 million Jews. Ray summed up his thoughts thusly in that email...I have no objection to a question like: "Why does God allow evil in the world?" I can answer that question. But, someone asks: "Why does God ORDAIN men to rape children?" that offends my spirit.. I will cover it in a future paper, but I just don't have the time right now, but I also didn't want everyone to think that I am avoiding the question or the many responses to it. Hope you will all be patient.
This thread was merely my attempt to show how differently I see Gods use of evil and mans use of evil, and Gods character vs mans character. And because of this vast difference, I cannot help but take offence to a simplistic view based entirely on the truths of Gods sovereignity and no free will that ignoring another great truth that " in God their is no darkness at all" and by not taking this third truth into account can categorically state that God actually is the one who did those crimes, I mean the wicked ones that man does, like raping little girls or killing 6 million in concentration camps. I an not denying the other two truths, I am saying this third truth when properly understood, shows that one is amiss is saying God did actually kill these people even though He is ultimately responsible for everything.
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