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CARNAL NATURE
geokuhns:
I’ve searched the Forum high and low trying to find an answer to a particular question and particularly if Ray has spoken to it. The answer might be there but if it is it has eluded me. So I’m asking the Forum members for help.
The question is: Was Jesus born with carnal nature? I know He was not carnally minded thanks to the power of the Father’s Holy Spirit but was He born with carnal nature? I do have an opinion but I will hold that to myself for now.
Thank you for your help.
George
mharrell08:
--- Quote from: George Kuhns on February 05, 2011, 12:00:23 PM ---I’ve searched the Forum high and low trying to find an answer to a particular question and particularly if Ray has spoken to it. The answer might be there but if it is it has eluded me. So I’m asking the Forum members for help.
The question is: Was Jesus born with carnal nature? I know He was not carnally minded thanks to the power of the Father’s Holy Spirit but was He born with carnal nature? I do have an opinion but I will hold that to myself for now.
Thank you for your help.
George
--- End quote ---
2 Cor 5:21 For the One not knowing sin, He makes to be a sin offering for our sakes that we may be becoming God's righteousness in Him
1 Pet 1:18-19 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot
Heb 9:14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?
Luke 1:35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also THAT HOLY THING which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God
Matt 1:20 ...the angel of the LORD appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost.
Rom 8:3-4 For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh, that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.
Excerpt from Ray regarding 'likeness of sinful flesh':
Ah, there it must be. Now we have a Scripture that tells that Jesus "in the likeness of sinful flesh," MUST BE SIN, right? Still wrong, pale face. "Flesh" means "body," and Jesus came in a body made of flesh, so Jesus’ body MUST BE SIN, right? WRONG! This verse doesn’t say that Jesus came in "A sinful BODY," now does it. Don’t try to make this verse say what it doesn’t say. Jesus came in the "LIKENESS of sinful FLESH," not in the "likeness of A sinful BODY."
The body of Jesus Christ was not sin, and your body is not sin. Physical bodies are not sin because matter CANNOT SIN. "Sin is the transgression of the law" (I John 3:4). What law does anything "material" break? What law does "matter" break? What law does any human "body" break? If **** is going to teach you this damnable heresy that the body of Jesus Christ IS SIN, then he had better be able to tell you WHAT LAW OR LAWS THE BODY OF JESUS BROKE? Am I going to fast for any of you? Am I going to fast for ALL of you who follow a man?
God did not "send His Own Son in a sinful body." Neither did God "send His Own Son in sinful flesh." We need to pay better attention to the words of the Scriptures, and men will not be deceiving us on such a grand scale. Jesus was sent by His Father "in the likeness of sinful flesh." What does that mean? This verse does not have reference to "sinful bodies," but rather to "sinful FLESH." And "flesh" virtually always used figuratively to mean the carnal mind. Carnal means "flesh" or "meat" as in "chili con carnie"—chili with MEAT. We are meatheads before conversion. That is, we are controlled by our carnal MINDS, (which is a spiritual entity, not physical matter).
Jesus Christ looked like many other men. But He was not. There was NOTHING common or unclean or sinful about Jesus Christ or His physical body. And to say otherwise is blasphemy.
Jesus came "in the likeness of sinful flesh," He did not come AS sinful flesh. The word "likeness" means, "form, resemblance, likeness, shape, similitude" (Strong’s Greek Dictionary). For the definition of these words from my American Heritage College Dictionary:
Form; "outward structure, shape and appearance" It does not mean of the SAME KIND.
Resemblance: "similarity in appearance or in external or superficial details" It does not mean of the SAME KIND.
Shape: "the characteristic surface configuration of a thing; an outline or contour" It does not mean of the SAME KIND.
Similitude: "similarity; resemblance, resembling another, a counterpart [resembling another], a perceptible likeness. It does not mean of the SAME KIND.
One more final proof from this verse that neither Jesus nor His body was sin. Let’s read Rom. 8:3:
"For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh [the flesh of sinful man, not the flesh of sinful Jesus] God sending His Own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin [Margin: ‘on account of sin. Diaglott: ‘{by an offering} for sin.’ Rotherham & Green: ‘and concerning sin’ New Revised Standard Version ‘and to deal with sin’] CONDEMNED sin in the flesh [in the carnal flesh of sinning humanity, not His OWN SIN!]."
There is not one Scripture in the Bible that says that man's physical body is sin.
Hope this helps,
Marques
Dave in Tenn:
What is "carnal nature"? Is that a scriptural or a theological term?
Joh 1:14 And the Word became flesh, and did tabernacle among us, and we beheld his glory, glory as of an only begotten of a father, full of grace and truth.
Php 2:5-8 For, let this mind be in you that is also in Christ Jesus, who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal to God, but did empty himself, the form of a servant having taken, in the likeness of men having been made, and in fashion having been found as a man, he humbled himself, having become obedient unto death--death even of a cross...
Christ became flesh/meat/carnal. While carnal, tempted in all points like as us other meat people, yet without sin and completely obedient to the Father. I don't know what "carnal nature" means. If it means sinful and disobedient, then 'no'...Christ did not have a 'carnal nature'. If it means being weak and completely dependant on the Father for the ability to will and to do His good pleasure, then I reckon the answer is 'yes'.
I hope that helps a little. If it doesn't, it's more proof that I am not a teacher.
hillsbororiver:
--- Quote from: Dave in Tenn on February 05, 2011, 12:44:25 PM ---
What is "carnal nature"? Is that a scriptural or a theological term?
--- End quote ---
Excellent question Dave, so I had to look it up and could not find that term in any of the standard/popular versions as a matter of fact...
So I guess the question would be, was Jesus carnal minded?
Rom 8:6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
Joh 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
George, I think I know what you are asking, and yes, Jesus did take upon Himself our frail condition, He was a physical man who experienced temptations but did not succumb or submit to follow through into sinning. Perhaps Paul can add some insight here;
Heb 2:16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.
Heb 2:17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.
Heb 2:18 For in that he himself hath suffered(G3958) being tempted, he is able to succour (aid or relieve) them that are tempted.
The part in verse 18 that reads "hath suffered being tempted" might be better stated as "hath experienced the sensation of being tempted."
G3958
πάσχω, πάθω, πένθω
paschō pathō penthō
pas'-kho, path'-o, pen'-tho
Apparently a primary verb (the third form used only in certain tenses for it); to experience a sensation or impression (usually painful): - feel, passion, suffer, vex.
I hope that the responses from Marques, Dave and I shed some light...
Peace,
Joe
Kat:
Hi George,
No absolutely Jesus did NOT have a carnal mind.
Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
Is it not the beast within that is the carnal nature in man? Jesus Christ did not go through the process as we do, to leave our first love and come to see the man of sin, son of prediction, beast within. The carnal mind is the opposite of the mind of God and Jesus could not have been carnal minded at all, because He was one with the Father.
John 10:30 I and My Father are one."
http://bible-truths.com/lake14.html -----
Listen, as long as we obey the beast within, we are not aware of just how evil this beast really is. As long as we obey our carnal mind, we are not aware of just how evil our carnal mind is. MOST Christians are carnal. And how can I say that with certainty seeing that I cannot read the hearts of most men? Because the Bible tells me so: "MANY are called, but FEW are chosen." The carnal minded are called, but the carnal-minded are not as yet chosen:
"And I [Paul], brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ.
"For ye ARE yet CARNAL: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not CARNAL, and walk as men [Gk: ‘according to man’]?
"For while one says, I am of Paul; and another, I am of Apollos [and another, I am Church of Christ, I am a follower of Billy Graham, or John Hagee, or Benny Hinn, or Paul Crouch, or T.J. Jakes, or Joyce Myers, etc.]; are ye [ALL] not CARNAL?"
Through the years I have had many people say to me that they are followers of this or that religious personality, or that so and so, is "My Man." Well let me inform you that you cannot fight a spiritual warfare by standing behind a carnal man.
"For we wrestle not against flesh and blood [carnal enemies], but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places" (Eph. 6:12).
Can we fight these spiritual enemies with carnal weapons or the teachings of carnal men?
"For the weapons of our warfare are not CARNAL, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds" (II Cor. 10:4).
JUST WHAT IS CARNALITY
What then is it to be carnal or carnally minded? It’s not good, I can tell you that. It’s a monster—IT’S A BEAST:
"for to be carnally minded is DEATH…"
And just why is that?
"Because the carnal mind is enmity [DEEP-SEATED HATRED] against God: for it is NOT SUBJECT to the [spiritual] law of God, neither indeed CAN BE [Gk: ‘is ABLE’]. So then they that are in the flesh [carnal-minded] CANNOT please God" (Rom. 8:6-8).
Have YOU ever seen yourself as the man of sin?
Do you believe that YOU were once the son of perdition?
Have YOU ever been carnally-minded in your walk with God?
Have YOU ever left your first love?
Have YOU ever put your hand to the plough and looked back?
Has the spiritual house YOU built upon the sand fallen yet?
Have you fallen from grace since first believing?
No? You say, "NO—NEVER"! Then the chances are great that "ye are YET carnal."
WHEN WILL I SEE THE BEAST WITHIN?
Paul wasn’t telling the unbelieving world that "ye are yet carnal." Nor was Jesus telling the world that they had "left the first love." No, Paul and Jesus are both telling THE CHURCH that they are "yet carnal and have left their first love"! In other words, AFTER coming into a church, AFTER they have accepted Christ, AFTER they have pursued their walk with God, AFTER they have built a spiritual house upon the sand, AFTER they have become indoctrinated with the commandments of men and the traditions of men, can one fall away and be in a position to actually spiritually SEE THE BEAST WITHIN! SEE the man of sin and the son of perdition. See your carnal-minded, God hating, SINS. You and I and all who have be enlightened by God’s word and our own failures in life, can surely see that we are all spiritually, WILD BEASTS.
If you insist that: "Ray! I don’t see myself as a spiritual BEAST, or a man of SIN, or the son of PERDITION [destruction]." Well, all I can to say is to parrot Paul: "YE ARE YET CARNAL."
----------------------------------------------------------
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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