> General Discussions
CARNAL NATURE
Samson:
--- Quote from: George Kuhns on February 05, 2011, 12:00:23 PM ---I’ve searched the Forum high and low trying to find an answer to a particular question and particularly if Ray has spoken to it. The answer might be there but if it is it has eluded me. So I’m asking the Forum members for help.
The question is: Was Jesus born with carnal nature? I know He was not carnally minded thanks to the power of the Father’s Holy Spirit but was He born with carnal nature? I do have an opinion but I will hold that to myself for now.
Thank you for your help.
George
--- End quote ---
Hi George,
I'm going to add another aspect or angle to Your inquiry. By the Greek definitions of the word "Carnal" or "Fleshly," I would answer that Jesus was not Carnal. Marques presented some good Scriptures including a good explanation from Ray about likeness. Also some good contributions from Hillsbororiver, Kat and Dave. Also some information was presented explaining the difference between having Carnality or a Carnal Nature in contrast to the meat of ones flesh(the body of flesh itself).
Kat and I were discussing the word Carnal through phone conversation approximately a Month ago. In that discussion, I looked up the word Carnal and found three different Greek Words with definitions and Scriptural examples, two of which were synonymous and very closely related. The third Greek word was a little different with two uses. Also Kat mentioned another word that added to the discussion. When this Topic presented by George appeared the other day, I decided to reexamine that information and prepare myself to present it here. Below, I will attempt to explain these Greek Words relating to Carnal, Fleshly Thinking or minded, Carnality, etc.
1) SarkiKos(Sar-Ki-Kos): English- Carnal, Flesh(As in fleshly Nature). Sensual, controlled by animalistic appetites, unregenerate, with the idea of unspirituality, fleshly thinking or minded. Lusts which have their source in Mans corrupt and fallen nature.
1Co 3:1 And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ.
1Co 3:3 For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?
2Co 10:4 (For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds;)
Rom 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
2) Sarkinos(Sar-Kee-nos): English-Fleshly. Means consisting of Flesh, Fleshly tables of the heart.
Note- According to Strongs Dictionary, Sarkikos and Sarkinos are Synonymous and closely related.
2Co 3:3 Forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart.
3) Sarx: English-Flesh of the body, the substance of the body, A Human being with His frailties, physical and mortal passions; Carnally minded.
Comment: As some Forum Members might notice, the Greek Word Sarx is a little different and could seem "tricky" in reference to Jesus. Sarx can be used interchangeably, ie- "Substance of the body, the physical flesh or being Carnally Minded. There is certainly a big difference. Jesus walked this Earth with a body consisting of a Fleshly substance and as We know, was unhealthy physically(Isaiah 53), but in no way was Carnally Minded. See my example below as how Sarx could be used in reference to the Body's substance of Flesh.
Example: A Person becomes Brain Dead with absolutely no thoughts, but His Body of Flesh(Sarx) is functioning and alive through life support systems. His Sarx is alive and functioning, but in no way can He have a Carnal Mind(Sarx), because His Brain is dead and Carnal desires or thoughts originate in the Brain.
Gal 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. NOTE: Sarx used as being Human frailties and being Mortal.
Co 15:39 All flesh is not the same FLESH: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds. NOTE: Sarx used as substance of Body.
Kat presented another word to me in that phone conversation, found below.
Kreas(Kreh-as) English-Meat or Flesh. Flesh in the sense of Animal Meat sold at market and for Idol Worship too.
1Co 8:13 Wherefore, if meat make my brother to offend, I will eat no flesh while the world standeth, lest I make my brother to offend.
Rom. 14:21 It is good neither to eat flesh, nor to drink wine, nor any thing whereby thy brother stumbleth, or is offended, or is made weak.
George, hope this helps in the right direction, Samson
longhorn:
All you people that can type over 12 words a minute really get on my nerves. ;D
Longhorn
P.S. I had to cheat in typing class. How low is that.
Samson:
--- Quote from: longhorn on February 07, 2011, 09:15:03 AM ---All you people that can type over 12 words a minute really get on my nerves. ;D
Longhorn
P.S. I had to cheat in typing class. How low is that.
--- End quote ---
LOL Longhorn,
Actually, although I Type fairly well, I used to have to look up all Scriptures and type them right from the bible while wearing my glasses, taking them off, very time consuming, but My wife finally brought ESWORD back recently, so all I have to do is copy and paste the Scriptures from that source.
Practice Your Typing Dude, you can improve, just like You practiced Lassoing Steers.
;D, Samson.
phillip78:
You sound like me longhorn. I have to chicken peck when I type. ;D
geokuhns:
Thanks everyone for your input on my question "was Jesus born with carnal nature."
However I still have questions.
I believe everything that has been posted above on my question such as:
1) Jesus never sinned.
2) Jesus was not carnally minded. (But did He have carnal nature? There is a difference).
3) Jesus was sent by God in the likeness of sinful flesh.
4) Jesus’s flesh was not sin because flesh cannot sin.
But questions still linger in my mind. This is the most important question. If anyone can answer it please do.
1) If Jesus did not have carnal nature then what kind of nature did He have that would have produced "temptation in Him?
Heb 4:15 "For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin."
If Christ "was in all points tempted like as we are", that He was "made like unto His brethren", and "as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, “He also Himself likewise took part of the same" then wouldn't Jesus have to have carnal nature which would be the root cause of His temptation as it is with any other human being? (Jesus was the "Son of man). If He didn't have carnal nature then what was causing His temptations in all points like as we are? The difference though between Jesus and us is Jesus was full of the Holy Spirit (Son of God) and is an example to us that Jesus can come into our lives to save us from our sinful "nature."
2) If Jesus did not have carnal nature as we do then what do we do with these verses:
"Wherefore in all things it behooved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God" (Hebrews 2:17).
"Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, He also Himself likewise took part of the same" (Hebrews 2:14).
Here is what makes sense to me:
Even though Christ was God in the flesh, he was tempted in all the basic forms that humankind has been tempted. In order for this to be possibly, Christ had to have carnal nature, the SAME basic carnal nature that any one of us has, yet Christ never allowed this nature to influence Him to sin. (He had carnal nature but did not become carnally minded). Christ had the Holy Spirit from birth which God supplied Him. It wasn't His own power that kept Him from sinning.
The same carnal nature we battle each day of our lives is the same carnal nature Christ had to battle during His lifetime. However, Christ not once ever gave in to this nature and sin, despite it's being a part of His daily existence. (He did not become carnally minded). Of course, giving in to sin as we all have strengthens carnal nature, but this can be defeated through Christ's life in us.
Philippians 2:5 "Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus."
It seems to me that the very son of God in the flesh was "related" to us via the same carnal nature, yet He was able to resist and overcome this nature, then why can't we if we truly have Christ and the Father LIVING their lives IN us?
Gal 2:20 "I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ lives in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me."
Christ had to overcome His nature...
John 16:33 "These things I have spoken to you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world."
Christ resisted and overcame human nature (carnal nature), just as the Father requires us to resist and overcome.
Matt 5:48 "Be (become) ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect."
I hope my post is not taken as "teaching." As I said in my initial post I have searched high and low on the forum for an answer on whether or not Jesus had carnal nature. I could not find anything definitive. The closest response to addressing my question in the posts above was that Jesus was not carnally minded which I believe to be true. But did He have a carnal nature as we do? I believe He did as laid out above.
Thank you for reading this and any time and effort you might put into responding.
George
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