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CARNAL NATURE
mharrell08:
Hey George,
It can be confusing to try to separate the terms 'carnal minded' and 'carnal nature'. The scriptures refer to them as the same [Eph 2:3 - use of word 'nature' to describe sinful condition].
Jesus was able to be tempted in all points as we are because he was human. Humans become hungry, tired, thirsty, etc. and eventually die. God is immortal and never lacks in these ways. The scriptures tell us that Jesus 'emptied Himself' [Phil 2:7] in order to be human, to be mortal and have total dependence on The Father for all His needs. Jesus made in the flesh is the only human to not have a carnal mind or carnal nature. It was specifically done this way so we could have an example to follow [John 13:15, 1 Pet 2:21].
Hope this helps,
Marques
Samson:
--- Quote from: George Kuhns on February 09, 2011, 11:27:15 AM ---Thanks everyone for your input on my question "was Jesus born with carnal nature."
However I still have questions.
I believe everything that has been posted above on my question such as:
1) Jesus never sinned.
2) Jesus was not carnally minded. (But did He have carnal nature? There is a difference).
3) Jesus was sent by God in the likeness of sinful flesh.
4) Jesus’s flesh was not sin because flesh cannot sin.
But questions still linger in my mind. This is the most important question. If anyone can answer it please do.
1) If Jesus did not have carnal nature then what kind of nature did He have that would have produced "temptation in Him?
Heb 4:15 "For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin."
If Christ "was in all points tempted like as we are", that He was "made like unto His brethren", and "as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, “He also Himself likewise took part of the same" then wouldn't Jesus have to have carnal nature which would be the root cause of His temptation as it is with any other human being? (Jesus was the "Son of man). If He didn't have carnal nature then what was causing His temptations in all points like as we are? The difference though between Jesus and us is Jesus was full of the Holy Spirit (Son of God) and is an example to us that Jesus can come into our lives to save us from our sinful "nature."
2) If Jesus did not have carnal nature as we do then what do we do with these verses:
"Wherefore in all things it behooved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God" (Hebrews 2:17).
"Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, He also Himself likewise took part of the same" (Hebrews 2:14).
Here is what makes sense to me:
Even though Christ was God in the flesh, he was tempted in all the basic forms that humankind has been tempted. In order for this to be possibly, Christ had to have carnal nature, the SAME basic carnal nature that any one of us has, yet Christ never allowed this nature to influence Him to sin. (He had carnal nature but did not become carnally minded). Christ had the Holy Spirit from birth which God supplied Him. It wasn't His own power that kept Him from sinning.
The same carnal nature we battle each day of our lives is the same carnal nature Christ had to battle during His lifetime. However, Christ not once ever gave in to this nature and sin, despite it's being a part of His daily existence. (He did not become carnally minded). Of course, giving in to sin as we all have strengthens carnal nature, but this can be defeated through Christ's life in us.
Philippians 2:5 "Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus."
It seems to me that the very son of God in the flesh was "related" to us via the same carnal nature, yet He was able to resist and overcome this nature, then why can't we if we truly have Christ and the Father LIVING their lives IN us?
Gal 2:20 "I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ lives in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me."
Christ had to overcome His nature...
John 16:33 "These things I have spoken to you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world."
Christ resisted and overcame human nature (carnal nature), just as the Father requires us to resist and overcome.
Matt 5:48 "Be (become) ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect."
I hope my post is not taken as "teaching." As I said in my initial post I have searched high and low on the forum for an answer on whether or not Jesus had carnal nature. I could not find anything definitive. The closest response to addressing my question in the posts above was that Jesus was not carnally minded which I believe to be true. But did He have a carnal nature as we do? I believe He did as laid out above.
Thank you for reading this and any time and effort you might put into responding.
George
--- End quote ---
Hi George,
I'll leave it to Kat & Marques and some of the other Pro's, even though I have E-SWORD now. You have a good question, but only would I like to add one point to Your inquiry, Read Below !
Isn't there a difference between someone trying to Tempt someone, like the Devil attempting to get Christ to Sin through a Temptation or the Religious leaders attempting to do so too, contrasted with a Person, in this case Christ having the capacity to Sin as result of the Temptation that's brought upon by others.
With the exception of Christ, the rest of us have the capacity to Sin as the result of some Temptation due to Our Sinful Nature. On the other hand, God The Father through Spirit dwelled in Christ while He was Human and prevented Him from succumbing to any Temptation brought upon Him by any possible causes. Furthermore, God provided the Causes and circumstances to protect Him and prevent Him from sinning as a result of any Temptation. I'll leave it to others to provide the Scriptures and excerpt's from Ray at this time, but maybe the above might help.
Kind Regards, Samson.
DougE6:
Hello George
You ask challenging questions, and you are articulate in your writing. A couple thoughts came to my mind as I read your post. I only present these in the spirit of being subject to correction, I am just starting to form a framework to get a handle on this. And I am trying to put together clues from Rays writings on this, as I write.
We know the Scriptures talk about TWO men. The First man Adam, and the Last man Christ. 1Co 15:45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. 1Co 15:47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.
This contrast/comparison between these two men is found in several locations in the New Testament.
Rom 5:18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
Rom 5:19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
So these two men are very important, both universal in impact.
Another thing they both share is they both were tempted by Satan. I realize that Adam had Eve involved, so it was not exactly as direct as when satan tempted Christ, but the reality still exists, they both faced Satan's wiles.
As you pointed out, the scriptures testify that Jesus was at all points tempted as we are but yet without sin. Heb 4:15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.
So I see both Adam and Christ as two NEW beginning points. Christ was flesh as Adam. Adams flesh was weak and fell when exposed to temptation. Christs flesh was, as He is the second man, I would think, the same as Adams before Adam disobeyed, yet Christ did not disobey as Adam did. Why? I would say because Christ had the holy spirit, whereas Adam did not. I would say that is the fundamental difference between the two outcomes. Jesus had the spirit of God in a way that Adam did not.
Luk 4:1 And Jesus being full of the Holy Ghost returned from Jordan, and was led by the Spirit into the wilderness,
Jesus faced satan when He was full of the spirit of God!
So the second man, the second Adam, was able to overcome through the spirit of God and then be able to reconcile all things back to God.
Col 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
Col 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
Col 1:17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
Col 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.
Col 1:19 For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;
Col 1:20 And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.
BUT BUT I won't say that Jesus was carnal(carnal mind) because of huge chance that can be misunderstood and I want to say only Biblical statements. The Bible does not outright say that(that I know of), but it does tell us many things that we discussed above. But I do think it is OK to say that Jesus was just like Adam before Adam disobeyed, BUT with a huge difference...Jesus had the spirit of God, and that allowed Him to obey God in every respect.
As Jesus had preexisted Adam, and had emptied Himself from the highest levels to become man, I am not sure if that difference changes things compared to Adam. That I also keep in mind. But I am comfortable in saying He was man just as much as you and me, and has felt the full force of satans wiles and fleshly weakness and needs and desires and yet was without sin, either from the HEART or overt. I think Adams heart became more corrupt after the disobedience and God opened his eyes, but that is speculation, and that is why I am only willing to say that I think Jesus humanity was like Adams before Adam experienced disobedience, because Christ NEVER experienced disobedience! I think the fact that Jesus never experienced disobedience means his "carnality" if you want to say such a word, was different from ours right now, in that we are guilty, we feel that guilt, we feel our death sentence and we know it is just, and we are ashamed and Jesus never was ashamed like that. Our guilt and shame must influence our carnal mind, our carnal nature, I would think. So I only want to say what is written, that Christ was tempted, that He was the second Adam, a man, and without sin, without saying things beyond.
Dave in Tenn:
I'll just simply ask the question again...what is "carnal nature"? As Joe pointed out, the term doesn't exist in scripture in any translation I have access to. The two words 'carnal' and 'nature' don't even appear together in any verse of scripture in any translation I have.
That makes it a theological question. I'm not saying that's a bad thing, but to try to find an answer to a theological question without having a common basis of understanding as to what the term means is going around the mulberry bush.
I think Doug is correct in attempting to speak and understand 'scripturally'. But if this is nagging on you, then try to explain what 'carnal nature' is.
mharrell08:
--- Quote from: Journey on February 09, 2011, 02:02:06 PM ---2 related verses that did not come up in the discussion which have bothered me since the day I read it:
1Jn 4:2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:
1Jn 4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.
I personally do not know ANY body that does not confess Jesus Came in the flesh, we all know the Word was made flesh. I have always wondered why John made such a big deal over it. I guess it all boils down to our understanding of the flesh of Jesus Christ. I think Doug nailed it, indeed He was made like unto his brethren, was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin, because he was full of the spirit of God.
--- End quote ---
The apostle John states Jesus Christ, not just Jesus. Christ means Messiah. While there may be many that believe a man named Jesus, recorded in the Holy Scriptures, walked the earth some 2000 years ago. Hardly anyone believes He is the Messiah, sent by God, to save all mankind.
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