> General Discussions
CARNAL NATURE
Kat:
John 6:38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me.
John 1:14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.
Remember that Christ was special, conceived by the Holy Spirit. He was the embodiment of the Father in flesh.
John 14:9 Jesus said to him, "Have I been with you so long, and yet you have not known Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; so how can you say, "Show us the Father'?
So God lowered Him to take on flesh so He could know this evil experience. But the Holy Spirit was in Him to the degree that He could not sin, the Father made sure He would not sin.
Luke 2:40 And the Child grew and became strong in spirit, filled with wisdom; and the grace of God was upon Him.
Luke 4:1 And Jesus, full of the Holy Spirit, returned from the Jordan, and was led by the Spirit
Here is an excerpt.
http://bible-truths.com/lake16-D4.htm ----------------
Jesus never sinned. Why not? Why didn't Jesus sin? I have said before: Because His Father wouldn't let Him sin, and because His Father inspired Jesus through His Holy Spirit to turn from the temptation every time. Jesus' motivation to not sin was much greater than His temptation to sin, and the stronger motivator (the love of God's Spirit in Him) always won out. This is how Jesus "overcame the world."
--------------------------------------------------------------
mercy, peace and love
Kat
hillsbororiver:
Hi All,
Great topic George!
I must add after reading through all the responses I am heartened by the degree of civility, the desire to (for the most part) understand where each and everyone's vantage point is coming from and the patience being displayed (without rancor) as we all earnestly dig deeper into a better understanding of our Lord and Savior...
It is an incredible subject matter regarding this merging of God's spiritual perfection (Our Father's Spirit) and the fleshly lump of clay (Mary) culminated and embodied by the life of Jesus.
Yes, He (Christ) had the advantage of knowing our Father firsthand and yes He had the advantage of understanding the Father's ultimate plan and purpose for humanity, but what He did not have was the experience (or sensation of worldly temptations involved) of this plan before He was to live in this mortal flesh.
--- Quote from: hillsbororiver on February 05, 2011, 02:47:30 PM ---
George, I think I know what you are asking, and yes, Jesus did take upon Himself our frail condition, He was a physical man who experienced temptations but did not succumb or submit to follow through into sinning. Perhaps Paul can add some insight here;
Heb 2:16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.
Heb 2:17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.
Heb 2:18 For in that he himself hath suffered(G3958) being tempted, he is able to succour (aid or relieve) them that are tempted.
The part in verse 18 that reads "hath suffered being tempted" might be better stated as "hath experienced the sensation of being tempted."
G3958
πάσχω, πάθω, πένθω
paschō pathō penthō
pas'-kho, path'-o, pen'-tho
Apparently a primary verb (the third form used only in certain tenses for it); to experience a sensation or impression (usually painful): - feel, passion, suffer, vex.
--- End quote ---
Heb 5:8 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered (experienced);
I agree with Dave in regard to the term "carnal nature" we can't find these exact words used to describe anyone in scripture although I believe we all understand what a "natural" (beastly) man is capable of and also that we all know our original state is purely carnal. But can anyone show us that Jesus at any time worshiped the "beast" within ever, once? Can anyone show us a man who did not worship his own beastly mind and desires?
A wide chasm there, a huge difference in the minute by minute walk through this snake infested journey. We fall to our knees with humble faith in the strength of His Spirit to win a battle every now and then, but He won every single time!
There is a paradox, riddle, parable, mystery, sacred secret within the life of Jesus as earthly man, as well as heavenly God, we probably will not fully comprehend this until the next age and beyond.
We (believers of the Promise under the New Covenant) have been given an example in Jesus as to how we should approach this journey toward perfection...
Gal 5:16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust(G19390 of the flesh.
G1939
ἐπιθυμία
epithumia
ep-ee-thoo-mee'-ah
From G1937; a longing (especially for what is forbidden): - concupiscence, desire, lust (after).
It is written "shall not FULFIL the lust of the flesh", not that we (and by example our Lord) shall not experience any temptation of this lust of the flesh, we are to learn to overcome by faith in the strength of His Spirit within us.
Gal 5:17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.
Spiritual warfare anyone?
Who walked in the Spirit throughout His entire life, Who did not ever fulfill the lust of the flesh even though He experienced the same manner of a longing for personal gratification? Any and all of His initial base temptations were always ultimately overcome by the desire to follow the will of our Father even though there was obviously real, palpable (at least initially) yearnings for a carnal (if only temporal) relief of these desires.
So my perception is that Christ experienced the longing of a carnal mind without becoming a subject (worshiper) of it.
Peace,
Joe
mharrell08:
--- Quote from: John from Kentucky on February 09, 2011, 10:08:15 PM ---Regarding 1 John 4:1-3
However, I remember Ray discussing this verse somewhere. Ray taught that those who deny Christ came in the flesh are denying that He comes into the hearts of believers. That when Jesus comes into our hearts, He is coming into our flesh. Those who deny that have the spirit of antichrist. I may not be stating Ray's teaching precisely. However, I forget where Ray discussed this. Maybe Kat or others can find where Ray discussed this and provide his precise statement. Was it somewhere in the LOF articles? I'll keep looking and provide the reference if I find it. The mind begins to go as the years roll by.
--- End quote ---
Is this the one John? I had always thought this verse was speaking of Jesus coming as human flesh as our Messiah. This is an interesting perspective, thanks for the heads up.
Email reply from Ray (http://bible-truths.com/email17.htm):
Dear Layne:
Thank you for your comments. I too do not claim to understand all mysteries.
However, I try to stay in the parameter of what the Scriptures reveal. The Scriptures do NOT reveal that the Holy Spirit OF God is really the Holy Spirit GOD. It is ludicrous to say that the spirit of God is a third part of a triune God when we are plainly told that Jesus Christ was "CONCEIVED by the Holy Spirit" but after Birth is called "The Son of the Father" rather than the "Son of the Holy Spirit." Jesus Christ HAS A GOD (God the Father). God the Father DOES NOT HAVE A GOD!!! Jesus Christ is and always will be "SUBJECT" to God His Father (I Cor. 15:24-28). No Trinitarian has ever even attempted to reconcile such Scriptures with a trinity theory.
Jesus Christ and His Father ARE ONE! What does that mean? Has God not given us other examples of how two can be ONE? A husband and wife in union ARE ONE, yet they are individuals. The Son is the VISIBLE IMAGE OF THE INVISIBLE GOD. That is Scriptural. God manifested HIMSELF to His Creation SONWISE or SONLY. The Son can be seen, the Father CANNOT BE SEEN. John tells us that we will see Jesus AS HE IS. I know of NO Scripture that tells us that we will ever see the Father (do you?). We pray TO the Father IN THE NAME OF Jesus Christ, through the spirit OF God--Both the Father and the Son have the SAME SPIRIT! That the KJV uses the personal pronoun "he" is hardly justification for making the Holy Spirit the third member of triune God.
The relationship between the Son and the Father are mentioned over and over and over again in the Scriptures. NOT ONCE do the Scriptures speak of a relationship between the Son and the Father and The Holy Spirit.
I have little interest in the trinity theory. I merely wrote a paper on it because people often ask. The one negative I do see in the theory, however, is that a trinity is in effect a "closed Godhead." Yet, the Scriptures plainly tell us that WE TOO CAN BECOME MEMBERS OF THE VERY FAMILY (not trinity) OF GOD. If we could become members of the 'trinity' then by the very nature of words and their meanings, the trinity WOULD CEASE TO EXIST! Think about it.
We too, mankind, also, like God, have a spirit. Our spirit, however, is NOT A SECOND PERSON! If I am with you 'in spirit' then I AM WITH YOU. My spirit is NOT SOME ELSE! Nor is it an ADDITION to me. Without MY spirit I would not exist. Without GOD'S spirit, GOD WOULD CEASE TO EXIST--GOD IS SPIRIT!!! God communicates and operates throughout the whole universe by HIS spirit. We TOO partake of this same spirit, but not through a third person of a trinity.
Jesus Christ told His disciples before His departure:
"Now, whenever the consoler [Gk: 'parakletos '= BESIDE - CALLer] which I shall be sending you [notice that Christ is the Sender, but FROM the Father], that will be testifying concerning Me" (John 15:26).
Now notice this:
"But I am telling you the truth. It is expedient for you that I may be coming away, for if I should not be coming away, THE CONSOLER WILL NOT BE COMING TO YOU." (John 16:7).
Why? If the Holy Spirit as a third person of a triune trinity is what God's spirit really is, then WHY would Jesus have to depart before IT could come if IT is a separate individual FORM Jesus?
What or Who is this "comforter?" Is it the third personality of a triune God? Let's read it:
"Yet whenever that may be coming--the spirit OF truth [Christ is TRUTH. He said "I am THE TRUTH"]..." (John 16:13).
"That will be glorifying Me, seeing that OF MINE will it be getting, and informing you. All, whatever the Father has, is Mine. THEREFORE I said to you that OF MINE is it getting, and will be informing you" (John 16:14-15).
Whatever is coming to comfort His Apostles after He is gone is something that is OF CHRIST that the Father GAVE TO HIM. Did the Father give to Christ the third person of the trinity???
Now John 16:27-28 from the Concordant Literal New Testament:
"...seeing that you are fond of Me, and have believed that I CAME OUT FROM GOD [out from beside God]. I CAME OUT FROM the Father and have come into the world. Again, I am LEAVING THE WORLD and am going TO THE FATHER."
After Pentecost the apostles never saw Jesus again the THE FLESH. And therefore Paul plainly informs us that:
"Yet even if we have known Christ ACCORDING TO FLESH, nevertheless now we KNOW HIM SO NO LONGER. So that, if anyone is IN CHRIST, there is a new creation..." (II Cor. 5:16-17).
Back to John:
"Remain IN ME. I also AM IN YOU...He who is remaining IN ME, and I IN HIM..." (John 15:4-5).
We are IN Christ and Christ is IN us. Next:
"If anyone should be loving Me, he will be keeping My word, and My Father will be loving him, and WE SHALL BE COMING TO HIM AND MAKING AN ABODE WITH HIM" (John 14:23).
And the Father ALSO will make His abode WITH US. How is this done? By the third person of the trinity? No. Christ said HE would be in us. And Christ said the Father would be also. But specifically HOW? And why must Jesus go away first?
Remember that Paul said we no longer know Christ according to the flesh. And Christ never appeared to the Apostles after Pentecost IN THE FLESH. Christ went back to the Father, but He said He would not leave us comfortless, but that He would send a comforter. He also said that it would be the "spirit of truth" and that it came TO Christ from the Father and now it IS CHRIST'S to do as He will with it.
Then who or what is this comforter, this 'parakletos'? God's Word tells us. John is the only writer who uses this word 'parakletos.' So where else does he use it? I John 2:1:
"My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate [Greek: PARAKLETOS!!!] with the Father, JESUS CHRIST the Righteous" (I John 2:1)!!!
There it is! Jesus Christ IS THE COMFORTER. Jesus Christ IS THE PARAKLETOS!
When we receive the Comforter it is CHRIST, IN SPIRIT [no longer according to the flesh]! IT IS CHRIST THAT COMFORTERS US THROUGH HIS SPIRIT WHICH JOHN PLAINLY TELLS US HE RECEIVED FROM HIS GOD AND FATHER! It is THEIR [the Son's and the Father's] SPIRIT that comes in us! No trinity here! No trinity anywhere!
"Hereby know ye the SPIRIT OF GOD: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is COME IN THE FLESH is of God" (I John 4:2).
"Hereby know we that WE DWELL IN HIM, and HE IS US, because He hath given us OF [genitive--OF] His spirit" (Verse 13).
It is JESUS CHRIST Who comes IN OUR FLESH. To deny that that it is JESUS CHRIST Who comes in our flesh is the spirit of ANTICHRIST.
CHRIST is our comforter. CHRIST leads us into all Truth. It is CHRIST in us the hope of glory. CHRIST is the parakletos. And this is all accomplished by the spirit OF God which the Father gave also to Christ and so we have the spirit of both the Son and the Father making its home IN US, not a third person of a fabled trinity!
OF COURSE Jesus Christ is God. He is the VERY IMAGE, THE EXPRESS IMAGE, OF THE INVISIBLE GOD HIMSELF--and that makes Christ GOD. And Jesus and His Father ARE ONE and they operate through ONE SPIRIT--THEIR spirit, not some OTHER person of a trinity.
Concerning your comments on the salvation of all, I must be short. I have written hundreds of pages on this theme and certainly have no intentions of duplicating all that in an e-mail.
Just because you do not understand God Word or His purpose is not solid ground for denying God's Word regarding the salvation of all. You call God's plan of universal salvation an "insult." You do "insult" God and His Word! You reason in your own carnal mind that it doesn't make sense for people to die for a message that isn't necessary. Who said the message isn't necessary? Not I. Not God.
People are so blinded that they are unaware that it is THROUGH the "foolishness of preaching" that men are saved! Many carnal-minded Christians ask me nearly daily: "If God is going to save everyone, why did Christ even have to die for us?" They say that there is no such thing as a stupid question, but this one comes pretty close!
Has anyone ever stopped to consider that it is the death of our Saviour Jesus Christ that makes it possible to save everyone in the first place? What do people mean, "WHY did He die if all will be saved?" THAT IS HOW THEY ALL GET SAVED!!!!!!! That is axiomatic. This is not rocket science. ALL have sinned. Christ died for ALL. ALL get saved because OF that Sacrifice for ALL! There is a process, however. Not all are NOW saved. But they ALL will be in the end. Read all of my letters to Hagee and Kennedy for the proof.
You say, "If I knew that everyone would be ultimately saved, why would I risk everything to deliver an unnecessary message?" Well, of course, you said it yourself: YOU WOULDN'T. What course in logic have you taken that REQUIRES a message to save 'SOME' but does NOT REQUIRE a message to 'SAVE ALL'?
I don't mean to be demeaning, Layne, but it never ceases to amaze me how people can throw all logic to the wind when it comes to their own personal religious bias.
If there are one hundred people trapped in a burning building and ten firemen can possibly save ten of them, does that mean then that TO SAVE THEM ALL IT WOULD NOT TAKE ANY FIREMEN. Why bring ANY fireman to the fire if our intention is to SAVE THEM ALL? So if only a few are to be saved from the fire it WILL require firemen. But if ALL are to be save from the fire it will require NO fireman. So some firemen would be willing to "risk everything" (to use your very own words) to same a FEW, but that it "wasn't necessary" for them to "risk everything" to launch an "unnecessary" rescue if they were to save EVERYONE? Maybe you have a better argument than you have presented here? Trust me, I HAVE HEARD THEM ALL!
Do you know why people as yourself present such foolish and unscriptural arguments against God's plain declarations? I'll tell you. Because trying to contradict the very WORD OF GOD is itself the epitome of ignorance and foolishness. There are THOUSANDS of pages that have been written by far better scholars than myself (I am a roofer, not a scholar) presenting HUNDREDS of Scriptures teaching the ultimate salvation of all. The etymology of every word has been searched out and proven to harmonize with the salvation of all.
Read the first ten pages of my letter to John Hagee. There you will find ample proof from the Scriptures that there is not even a hint of eternal torture taught in either the Hebrew or Greek Scriptures. Greek "aions" are NOT English "eternities." I absolutely, Scripturally, PROVE that. If you think you can disprove it--give it your best shot.
Gotta go. Many more e-mails to answer. I pray to God that He will grant you a spirit of humility, wisdom, and understanding, if it be His will at this time.
Sincerely,
Ray
grapehound:
Thanks John f K for pointing us here and thanks Marques for digging out that jewel.
Grateful Grape
mharrell08:
--- Quote from: John from Kentucky on February 10, 2011, 12:25:29 PM ---Yes Marques, that's it. The three lines you highlighted towards the end of the email. The idea that Jesus coming in the flesh is when His Spirit enters our hearts, that is how He comes in the flesh. It stuck in my mind as an interesting concept from Ray. I never remembered that verse being put that way before. Most interesting.
--- End quote ---
Me either but I think Ray actually brings it to light in the correct sense. Notice that John continues teaching of Christ IN us:
1 John 4:4-5 You are of God, little children, and have overcome them, because He who is in you is greater than he who is in the world. They are of the world. Therefore they speak as of the world, and the world hears them.
and confirms again in another epistle:
2 John v7-9 For many deceivers have gone out into the world who do not confess Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist. Look to yourselves, that we do not lose those things we worked for, but that we may receive a full reward. Whoever transgresses and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God. He who abides in the doctrine of Christ has both the Father and the Son.
And as Ray pointed out in the email, this only confirms the message that Christ gave to His disciples:
Excerpt from email from above:
After Pentecost the apostles never saw Jesus again the THE FLESH. And therefore Paul plainly informs us that:
"Yet even if we have known Christ ACCORDING TO FLESH, nevertheless now we KNOW HIM SO NO LONGER. So that, if anyone is IN CHRIST, there is a new creation..." (II Cor. 5:16-17).
Back to John:
"Remain IN ME. I also AM IN YOU...He who is remaining IN ME, and I IN HIM..." (John 15:4-5).
We are IN Christ and Christ is IN us. Next:
"If anyone should be loving Me, he will be keeping My word, and My Father will be loving him, and WE SHALL BE COMING TO HIM AND MAKING AN ABODE WITH HIM" (John 14:23).
And the Father ALSO will make His abode WITH US. How is this done? By the third person of the trinity? No. Christ said HE would be in us. And Christ said the Father would be also. [Just as the apostle John says in 2 John v7-9]
Thanks again for the heads up John,
Marques
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