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CARNAL NATURE

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DougE6:
Psa 51:5  Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.

I think everyone of us, except Jesus and Adam were conceived in the same way that David was, in sin.  Only Jesus and Adam were not conceived through physical sexual intercourse, or more precisely, the union of male sperm and female egg, but through the direct action of God in some way.  I think this is an important and planned distinction by God.   That is why I feel the carnal pulls and longings that Jesus felt were similar, probably/certainly the same as Adams prior to his disobedience,  those carnal pulls that Joe so aptly pointed out about how the longings of the carnal mind exist and how we through can spirit resist such; but I still struggle with the thought that Jesus had the same carnal mind as us who actually are disobedient and are guilty and are GIVEN OVER to even greater reprobate minds….

Rom 1:21  Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
Rom 1:22  Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
Rom 1:23  And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.
Rom 1:24  Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:   Rom 1:26  For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:  Rom 1:28  And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;

I think this is what I was trying to say earlier, about the carnal mind, I think our present disobedient carnal mind has been given over to a degree of reprobateness that was never in Christ, because this kind of reprobateness was given to the actually disobedient.

I think Jesus did indeed feel all the longings and carnal pulls of the original Adam before Adam sinned, and that Jesus being the Second Adam, succeeded where the First Adam could not.  This was because He as Kat showed had the Holy Spirit, He was full of the spirit. 

So Jesus being the same as us, as our Adam, did indeed completely partake in our humanness and whatever carnal mind Adam had, but He did not participate in the reprobate mind found in all of the disobedient, including that of Adam, after Adam sinned. 

So I am careful about saying Jesus had a carnal mind because we have reprobate carnal minds, (until we are renewed, of course) and because our own minds are our only point of reference, we can think Jesus had the same mind as us, when we say that, and I don’t think He did, in that way. 

Of course he felt all the natural longings of hunger, tiredness, want, I am sure sexual desires, but He subjugated them all to the will of the Father and as Joe said, never worshipped the carnal mind, never became a slave of the carnal mind, and never had for a want of a better term a “fallen” carnal mind.  As He was never disobedient or guilty He could not have. 

Does this make any sense?  I am putting this out for all to comment.  BTW those articles, emails, of Rays were awesome!  I read them on my phone in the dentist chair, and read them again in the car, and again at home. Thanks Marques.

Doug

mharrell08:

--- Quote from: DougE6 on February 11, 2011, 06:54:50 PM ---I think everyone of us, except Jesus and Adam were conceived in the same way that David was, in sin. Only Jesus and Adam were not conceived through physical sexual intercourse, or more precisely, the union of male sperm and female egg, but through the direct action of God in some way.  I think this is an important and planned distinction by God.   That is why I feel the carnal pulls and longings that Jesus felt were similar, probably/certainly the same as Adams prior to his disobedience,  those carnal pulls that Joe so aptly pointed out about how the longings of the carnal mind exist and how we through can spirit resist such; but I still struggle with the thought that Jesus had the same carnal mind as us who actually are disobedient and are guilty and are GIVEN OVER to even greater reprobate minds….
--- End quote ---


Doug, you can't know this for sure. We know the scriptures state Adam was made from the dust of the ground, but why would that be a literal statement? God refers to our physicality as 'dust' multiple times in the Scriptures:

Job 10:9  Remember, I pray, that You have made me like clay. And will You turn me into dust again?

Did not Job state he came from his mother's womb? [Job 1:21, 3:10] How could he be literal 'dust again' when he came from his mother's womb? Or is being 'from dust' a metaphor for being born from another person?

Ecc 3:20  All go to one place: all are from the dust, and all return to dust.

All are from the dust...is not Eve spoken of to be the mother of all living [Gen 3:20]? Not in the literal sense, but as in one who brings about life through childbearing?


Now regarding the original subject of this thread, carnality is carnality. There is no distinction between a carnal mind and a carnal nature. Paul talks about our 'nature' being a sinful one:

Eph 2:2-3  ...you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience, among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others

And while there is our sinful nature, there is a 'divine nature' as well:

2 Pet 1:2-4  Grace and peace be multiplied to you in the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord, as His divine power has given to us all things that pertain to life and godliness, through the knowledge of Him who called us by glory and virtue, by which have been given to us exceedingly great and precious promises, that through these you may be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust

Paul tells us that OUR nature conducts in the lust of the flesh, Peter tells us that the DIVINE nature (from God and our Lord Jesus) gives us an escape from the pulls of the flesh. This divine nature is what Jesus had. Peter tells us this was an example [1 Pet 2:21] for us to follow and we do this by being 'partakers of the divine nature'. A divine nature is the complete opposite of a carnal nature.


Marques

DougE6:
Hi Marques

I know Ray once wrote that satan, who like a roaring lion, seeks whom he may devour, and that satan, the metaphorical snake cursed to crawl on his belly and to eat dust all the days of his life, that indeed was not literal but was a very telling metaphor...that we(our carnal minds)  are a spiritual snack for satan!  Not that satan literally eats dust, and that he literally devours/eats us, but satan sure does feast off our carnal mind!  Our carnal mind with all its angers, and lusts, and jealousies, and envies, and faithlessness, and frustrations, and myriad sinful expressions provide a delicious snack for satan.  There is a lot of deep spiritual meanings in that we are of dust. And many more than I know of, the least not being, our "dustiness" is a humble start that connects us to the lower physical creation strongly.  In any respect, we are part and parcel of the physical world.

But like all good metaphors, is there not a lower sense, a literal sense, that is also actually literally true?  I mean, besides the hidden higher spiritual picture, explained above,  isn't there  the lower, more obvious non spiritual literal truth?  Are we not actually physically dust, in a literal way?  Are we not of the earth, earthly? As the First Adam was of the earth, earthly? As contrasted to what we will be, as the second Man from heaven, the Second Adam, who as you aptly pointed out, allows us to partake of the divine nature, the heavenly nature,  as he is not earthly one, the dusty one,  but heavenly one?

Does the fact that we eventually decay into dust shows that we literally are dust?  I think so.  When we die, our minerals, the iron in our blood, phosphorous in our ATP, the carbon, the calcium, the trace minerals,  the oxygen...yes oxygen is one of the most common elements in the earths dust, like 20%, all of our elements, all that we are returns to the dust from which it came, and this can be shown chemically!  All our physical structures are truly made from the elements found in dust of the ground.  Could not that be Gods way of showing us how totally and humbly tied to the physical world and creation our physical bodies actually are, and that is why in no small part our carnal minds are like the beasts of the field, in self centeredness.  Nature follows selfish laws, eat or be eaten, survival of the fittest, animals do NOT do until others as they would have others do unto them, quite the opposite, in fact! 

You are right that some things we cannot know for sure.  But AT LEAST  surely God must of started anew with Adam, in a giant and profound manner, (don't you think?)  no matter what type of man-being(yes I do, like Ray, believe in a long God directed creation process) may have preceded Adam, because Adam was the start of the race of the ones to be made into His image.  No other being has this honor.  In no other being would Christ be made into.  I like how the account seems like God is starting a new thing.  I personally like to take the account of Adams creation both literally and spiritually, that God did start with dust to make us, (though this can be true in either sense)  and understand we are actually dust, and to dust we shall return, yet see all the many and profound beautiful spiritual lessons of that too.  Yes I guess it is possible for God, to have done all this in a totally gradual way and at some point a man was sufficiently advanced that God began to work with him but that muddies the water for me personally to understand.   And yes, I think all the above metaphors could be fit into an approach, where Adam was brought into existence purely by natural means. But someday I guess we will actually see with total clarity.  I PREFER to think God directly intervened, and it happened just as described in Genesis, and was an example of Gods direct interventions that I think must of happened thousands of times throughout geological time, as He filled in all those gaps.

But on the less controversial, I really like to emphasize, as you brought forth, that we are to be partakers of the divine nature of Christ.  That is where we are going.  I understand that very well.  And that is where/what I want to be! A partaker of His nature.

cjwood:
short answer for me is; Jesus Christ was born a human being, with a human brain.  not a carnal brain.  a human brain, and all that a human brain is possible of doing.  but, His heart was filled with the very Spirit of God the Father.  so, He could not sin, nor be base and carnal and all that comes with that mindset, because, it all stems from the heart.  in His heart He walked by the Spirit, our hearts are yet carnal.  until, we follow His Spirit with our hearts, and then our minds will follow...

claudia

Joel:
A simple question that begs to be ask concerning Jesus is, What sin can one lay to The SON of God's charge? What can he be accused of?

I can't think of a single thing, Romans 8:33 ask " Who shall lay anything to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth."

Joel

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