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Author Topic: Today you will be with me in Paradise?  (Read 9395 times)

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Stacey

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Re: Today you will be with me in Paradise?
« Reply #20 on: March 08, 2011, 05:07:38 PM »

Duane I'm not saying this applies to you but your post did prompt this reply to everyone.

I have been a part of the forum from the beginning, and I have seen much growth and knowledge gained by the members.  I wish I had half the knowledge and strength as some of you.  But I often wonder (about myself as well as the rest of the members) what has our knowledge profited?  Have we become religious elephants? able to carry large loads of knowledge?  If so what is the fruits of this vast knowledge? Are we dying to self?  Are we becoming more humble? less carnal?  Are we becoming a light in a world of darkness?  

Or are we becoming religious hobbyist with ADD?  Running to a fro looking for the next revelation and then switching gears when the next revelation happens along?  Do we only want to live on the peaks?  Or do we relish the journey?  Do we feel special because we got a revelation or do we know we are special because we are children of God?

Now I'm not claiming anyone here fits this mold but I do want us all to do a little soul searching.  Knowledge does not make us the elect nor makes us any more spiritual than an atheist.  Ray and his teaching has opened up the scripture to the real Good News that God has given us and for that I am eternally grateful.  Are we making the best use of this knowledge and are we applying it where the rubber meets the road? Or are we filling the bed of the truck up but when we get ready to start down the road we find we have no wheels or motor?

Food for thought.
Craig

That is excellent food food for thought Craig, thanks. It goes right along with some of my thinking on a thread I intend to make shortly and hope to get some responses and feed back on. Thanks.
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Stacey

GaryK

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Re: Today you will be with me in Paradise?
« Reply #21 on: March 08, 2011, 07:57:15 PM »

I'm just trying to understand why we insist on applying human terms to a word and or words that we cannot possibly fathom in God's realm.  Why can't we just accept that it is going to be a wonderful place, a place better than where we are now, and leave it at that?

Craig


Or, as Ray put it to Kennedy:

"Certainly it does not deserve to be compared with the end result that God has in store for all His Creatures. Our Apostle said that the glories that are to be revealed to us are so great he calls them "a burden!" Imagine having so much happiness it almost becomes a burden."

http://bible-truths.com/kennedy2.htm



Sounds good.

gk
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Dave in Tenn

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Re: Today you will be with me in Paradise?
« Reply #22 on: March 08, 2011, 11:24:54 PM »

How is it done, John?  I reckon when you're ready, you'll know.   :D
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Heb 10:32  But you must continue to remember those earlier days, how after you were enlightened you endured a hard and painful struggle.

Marky Mark

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Re: Today you will be with me in Paradise?
« Reply #23 on: March 09, 2011, 12:10:22 PM »

Quote
I'm just trying to understand why we insist on applying human terms to a word and or words that we cannot possibly fathom in God's realm.  Why can't we just accept that it is going to be a wonderful place, a place better than where we are now, and leave it at that?

Craig

Hi Craig.

The heavens within are hearts and minds are the realm of God,to those in Christ.

I do not believe we can understand what the Word of God is communicating to us in human terms,on a human level,but I do believe God can, on a Spiritual level, open up the Scriptures so that we as human beings can be blessed with what The Lord requires of all that He wills in the lives of those whom He is calling out of the world. Without Him,we certainly can do nothing.


Some sound advice from Ray...

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,6142.0.html
What Is The Gospel Of The Kingdom? . . Mobile Conference 2005

Rev 1:3  Blessed is he that reads, and they that hear the words of the prophecy, and keep the things that are written therein:
How are you going to keep the sayings of the prophecy in Revelation, if you don’t even know what it means. 
Well God chooses people out in every generation to learn these things and hopefully we will learn some of these things today.

This book was written so that nobody could understand it, until God picks somebody out and says I want you to understand this book and I’ll show you how to understand it.  That’s the only way.  He’s got to pick you out and open up your mind or you will never understand this book.  This book is written in all kinds of symbolism, figurative language, types, figures, images, examples, analogies, parables, metaphors and people think all those things are literal.  That is confusion.  That’s why the church is confused.  That’s why there are supposedly 3000 Christian denominations in the world, because they don’t understand any of this stuff.


Jesus Christ said to His Apostles, to you it is given to understand, but to them it is not given to understand.
Mark 4:11  And he said unto them, Unto you is given the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all things are done in parables:
Mar 4:12  that seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand;

To you it is given, to them it’s not given.  There’s you and there’s them and that’s just the way it is and the way it will be until the close of the age.




Hope this helps some. :)
Peace... Mark



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mharrell08

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Re: Today you will be with me in Paradise?
« Reply #24 on: March 09, 2011, 02:22:39 PM »

Excerpt from 12 Truths (http://bible-truths.com/twelve.htm):

TRUTH NUMBER 12

    "If any man will DO His will, he shall KNOW of [concerning] the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of Myself" (John 7:17).

    "But he that does truth [Gk: ‘is DOING the truth’] comes to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they [his ‘doings’] are wrought in God" (John 3:21).

    "For this cause we also, since the day we heard it, do not cease to pray for you, and to desire that you might be filled with the knowledge of His will in all wisdom and spiritual understanding: That you might walk worthy of the Lord unto all pleasing, being fruitful in every good work, and increasing in the knowledge of God" (Col. 1:9-10).

    "My son, if you will receive my words, and hide [‘treasure’] My commandments with you… Then shall you understand the fear of the Lord, and find the knowledge of God. For the Lord gives wisdom: out of His mouth comes knowledge and understanding" (Prov. 2:1, 5-6).

    "And we know that the Son of God is come, and has given us an understanding, that we may know Him that is True, even in His Son Jesus Christ. This is the True God, and eternal [eonian] life. Little children, keep yourselves from idols" (I John 5:20-21).

    "And he that received seed into the good ground is he that hears the word, and understands it, which also bears fruit…" (Matt. 13:23).

    "The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom, a good understanding have all they that do his commandments: his praise endures for ever [the eon]" (Psalm 111:10).


I have thus far presented you with hundreds of Scriptures. Do you agree with them? Do you believe them? Are you willing to DO THEM? Whenever God and our Saviour speak to us, we are to BELIEVE AND OBEY. All who have ever attempted to circumvent these spiritual truths learned were not taught of God,

    "…but vain were they made in their reasonings and darkened is their unintelligent heart. Alleging themselves to be wise, they are made stupid…" (Rom. 1:21-22, Concordant Literal New Testament).

Every single person I know that has stopped growing, spiritually, begins to go backwards, loosing what light they may have possessed because they are no longer faithful to the Word and commandments of Almighty God.



I think the above excerpt goes along with Craig's point about putting this knowledge we have obtained to use. The apostle James said we are to be 'doers of the Word' and not simply hearers, otherwise we deceive ourselves [Jam 1:22].

So if I am able to do those things you described above, then please tell me how it is done.  However, I don't think it is within us to be able to do good, in anything.  It is all from God, and I will be what he wants me to be when he wants.


And John, I know you have referenced this verse many times in the past:

John 15:5  I [Jesus] am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing

And these words from Christ are absolutely true, we can do nothing WITHOUT Him. But what about WITH Him?

Phil 4:13  I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me

This is how we 'do' these things that we are admonished to do. And if we know that it is Christ who has opened our understanding to the Truth, we KNOW that it is He who dwells in us. And with that knowledge, we can fulfill the words of the apostle James:

James 2:18-26  But someone will say, “You have faith, and I have works.” Show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith BY my works. You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe—and tremble! But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead?

Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect? And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.”And he was called the friend of God. You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.

Likewise, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out another way? For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.



Thanks,

Marques
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Rene

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Re: Today you will be with me in Paradise?
« Reply #25 on: March 09, 2011, 03:02:33 PM »

Phil 4:13  I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me

James 2:18-26  But someone will say, “You have faith, and I have works.” Show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith BY my works. You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe—and tremble! But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead?


Thanks, Marques, for bringing this forward at this time.  I just love these scriptures that keep us humble by putting us in our place, yet strengthen us at the same time!

René
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mharrell08

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Re: Today you will be with me in Paradise?
« Reply #26 on: March 11, 2011, 08:47:06 AM »

All is from God.  All.  Jesus knew.  Jesus said there is no one good but God.  Jesus said that He (Jesus) could do nothing by himself.  Jesus said it was the Father who did the works. 

John

John 14:10  Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father in Me? The words that I speak to you I do not speak on My own authority; but the Father who dwells in Me does the works

John, no scripture interprets itself [2 Pet 1:20]. The Father was not who Satan tempted, or Who was crucified, or Who was resurrected. Jesus did all those things, and He was able to do them because the Father was IN Him.

John 5:36  I have a greater witness than John’s; for the works which the Father has given Me to finish—the very works that I do—bear witness of Me, that the Father has sent Me

John 10:25 Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in My Father’s name, they bear witness of Me

John 10:32  Jesus answered them, “Many good works I have shown you from My Father. For which of those works do you stone Me?”

John 14:12  “Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes in Me, the works that I do he will do also; and greater works than these he will do, because I go to My Father


In the very passage that you referenced, Jesus said that those who believe in Him would do the very works that He did. And how would we do this?

John 14:23  Jesus answered and said to him, “If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him.

John 6:56  He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood abides in Me, and I in him

John 15:4-5  Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me. “I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing


Paul says that Christ IN us is our hope of glory [Col 1:27]. This is HOW those who God is calling do good works. You asked how and that's the answer. It's not taking anything away from the Father, it's explaining HOW God does the work in us.


Marques
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One Love

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Re: Today you will be with me in Paradise?
« Reply #27 on: March 11, 2011, 12:44:57 PM »

Marques
So basically you are agreeing with John because I don't see any explanation of all those verses you quoted. When Jesus was on earth, he did everything throught the FATHER or in the name of the FATHER, That's what I gather from all these verses you quoted without explanation. Jesus is now the mediator between the Father and men. So much of scripture without any explanation.

God Bless!
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mharrell08

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Re: Today you will be with me in Paradise?
« Reply #28 on: March 11, 2011, 01:20:01 PM »

Marques
So basically you are agreeing with John because I don't see any explanation of all those verses you quoted. When Jesus was on earth, he did everything throught the FATHER or in the name of the FATHER, That's what I gather from all these verses you quoted without explanation. Jesus is now the mediator between the Father and men. So much of scripture without any explanation.

God Bless!


Here is the explanation, AGAIN:

This is HOW those who God is calling do good works. You asked how and that's the answer. It's not taking anything away from the Father, it's explaining HOW God does the work in us.

John asked 'please tell me how it is done' in regards to dying to self and other good works. Also this point was made as well:

This is how we 'do' these things that we are admonished to do. And if we know that it is Christ who has opened our understanding to the Truth, we KNOW that it is He who dwells in us. And with that knowledge, we can fulfill the words of the apostle James

Gordon, it would be wise to actually follow the discussion before jumping on someone's case.


Marques
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One Love

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Re: Today you will be with me in Paradise?
« Reply #29 on: March 11, 2011, 03:56:01 PM »

Marques
Please make me understand this! every scripture you quoted below seems that Jesus is doing or speaking about the FATHER or thru the Father,
Quote
John 14:10  Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father in Me? The words that I speak to you I do not speak on My own authority; but the Father who dwells in Me does the works
as I read John's post
Quote
The Father needed someone to betray Jesus.  The Potter selected Judas to do the dirty deed.  Many believe Judas betrayed Jesus because Judas was bad.  Others see Satan behind the betrayal, which is also true.  However, behind the curtain, it was actually God the Father who brought about Judas and Satan doing what they did.  It was actually God the Father who killed Jesus.

All is from God.  All.  Jesus knew.  Jesus said there is no one good but God.  Jesus said that He (Jesus) could do nothing by himself.  Jesus said it was the Father who did the works.
He is plainly saying that The FATHER is doing all thru Jesus, yeah! How can GOD call anybody to do good works, if he don't accept Jesus, "Jesus is the way to the Father" right and I'm also sure that GOD's spirit dwells in every living body or that body is dead, yeah.
How wise must one be to follow this!

God Bless
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mharrell08

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Re: Today you will be with me in Paradise?
« Reply #30 on: March 11, 2011, 04:24:50 PM »

Marques
Please make me understand this! every scripture you quoted below seems that Jesus is doing or speaking about the FATHER or thru the Father

Gordon, I can nothing more than post the scriptures I have. Without God it is impossible, but WITH God, ALL THINGS are possible [Matt 19:26, Mark 10:27, Luke 18:27]. But 'only to those who believe' [Mark 9:23]. Paul said that it is God working IN US, to will and to do [Phil 2:13]...and if He is IN US, then we can produce much fruit [John 15:5].

Did Jesus say 'he who abides in in Me, and I in him, MY FATHER will produce much fruit'? No, John 15:5 states that he who has Christ abiding IN him, that believer will produce much fruit.


Marques
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mharrell08

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Re: Today you will be with me in Paradise?
« Reply #31 on: March 11, 2011, 04:34:04 PM »

Hi Marques,

I don't believe that there are any fundamental disagreements between us.  I was being a little stinko by asking my question.  It was a rhetorical question.  I already knew the answer to the question before I asked.  Both faith and works are needed.  James and Paul do not contradict.

I asked the question because I keep on picking up an undercurrent of thought here that somehow we are in some way responsible for the works we do.  Maybe it's none of my business.  But I perceive that thought from various sources here.

However, you cannot disregard the fact that Jesus said the Father did the works.  Jesus was the agent, the Spokesman, but everything He (Jesus) said or did came (and comes) from the Father.


Hello John,

I placed in bold the reason you are 'picking up' this train of thought. No one is disregarding Who and What the Father is but you constantly assume so in the forum members. You need to give the members a little more credit in their understanding of the Truths of God.

For example, there is no need for someone to constantly state 'If God Wills' before and after every statement they make on this forum. We all already know this. We also know that it is God who opened our understanding, even if He used a retired roofer.

So as God is dwelling in us, opening our understanding, we also know we will do good works because we abide in Him and He in us. Jesus said so and Jesus is not a liar. The Father isn't typing on your keyboard, you are. The Father didn't find BT to read Ray Smith's teachings, you did. And only because He was IN you.


Hope this helps,

Marques
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One Love

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Re: Today you will be with me in Paradise?
« Reply #32 on: March 11, 2011, 05:27:53 PM »

Quote
Did Jesus say 'he who abides in in Me, and I in him, MY FATHER will produce much fruit'? No, John 15:5 states that he who has Christ abiding IN him, that believer will produce much fruit.

Mr. Smith quotes:
It is ALL OF GOD.  Faith to believe God, to believe in God, to believe His Word, must come FROM GOD (Eph. 2:08).  It is a GIFT from God.  We don't choose Christ, but rather He chooses us (John 15:16), and we do not come to Christ, but rather the Father drags us (John 6:44).  And we do not produce spiritual fruit. Our spiritual fruit comes from another source than ourselves, it is the "fruit OF THE SPIRIT," that's the source.

GOD BLESS
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mharrell08

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Re: Today you will be with me in Paradise?
« Reply #33 on: March 11, 2011, 05:47:32 PM »

Quote
Did Jesus say 'he who abides in in Me, and I in him, MY FATHER will produce much fruit'? No, John 15:5 states that he who has Christ abiding IN him, that believer will produce much fruit.

Mr. Smith quotes:
It is ALL OF GOD.  Faith to believe God, to believe in God, to believe His Word, must come FROM GOD (Eph. 2:08).  It is a GIFT from God.  We don't choose Christ, but rather He chooses us (John 15:16), and we do not come to Christ, but rather the Father drags us (John 6:44).  And we do not produce spiritual fruit. Our spiritual fruit comes from another source than ourselves, it is the "fruit OF THE SPIRIT," that's the source.

GOD BLESS


Gordon, you want to argue just for the sake of arguing and I'm done with it. Jesus said these things are possible to those who believe [Mark 9:23], and since you don't, there is nothing more to be said.
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DougE6

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Re: Today you will be with me in Paradise?
« Reply #34 on: March 11, 2011, 06:21:14 PM »

Hello John
I know you LOVE to emphasize almost continuously how all is of God, and how it is God who does all the works. And I understand that, but I think my perspective is different. And you like rhetorical questions. OK so here is a rhetorical question, that may help me show what I mean.  Why did God create Satan? Why would God have an in between? Of what REAL use is Satan?  Why can’t God directly cause all the pains and evils, why can't God directly make the rapist to rape, and the terrorist to blow someone away, if as you say, God the Father is actually doing it? Seriously, why does God need Satan?  I mean, God the Father does all the works, right?

I think, to answer my own rhetorical question, that since God IS NOT EVIL HIMSELF, He made Satan to be EVIL to do those very evil things that God has no stomach to do so.  It is not God who is raping little children; it is evil men who are drawn away by their own lusts.  It is Satan, who of his evil desires, being instrumental in directly causing these evil things.  God needs evil to accomplish his works, to make us into His image, and has created both evil and evil beings and evil people, but God does not DIRECTLY do these things. He created beings to do these evil things, so He would not have too!!!

Of course God steers everything, and God is responsible for everything.  God may goad satan to do things, or play “chess” with him, but when I or Satan or you do something evil, it is the lusts in ourselves that we are willingly obeying. We are the ones that do it.  Not God.  Even if it could NOT be otherwise, even if we are so subject to causes that if the event was repeated over and over the same outcome would result, doesn't change the fact that YOU or I  DID IT.  And we do it willingly and with intent. I am at peace with this. I feel God can justly judge me and hold me accountable.  Even as I know He has planned all my steps, I still take ownership and despise the evil within me, and repent of my evil acts with tears.  And as I grow in Him, thank God, less and less evil comes through and from me.

So, with Jesus in me, I find myself doing righteous things, and Less evil things!  I have FAR LESS lusts in me than I have had before.  I love others, and I want to DO things to help them. I think Craig asked a question near and dear to my heart.  I do NOT want to stand before Jesus and say, I have no good actions, but, but, I have a lot of knowledge!  NO NO NO.  If anyones’ understanding of God doing all the works is SUCH that they end up using that AS AN EXCUSE to actually not to try, not to wrestle, then you are in a sad state indeed.  It is not an EXCUSE NOT TO STRUGGLE AND OBEY!  I want to DO something with all this newfound LOVE and UNDERSTANDINGS! I want to do the works of JESUS.  I WANT TO OBEY! I want to live pure and holy. I want to love righteousness and hate wickedness. I want to give to others.  I want to treat all my customers fairly.  I want to be trustworthy and full of integrity. I want to be used for good.

I fully understand Marques words, I thought his explanations,  the bible verses, were spot on and wonderful.  Without Him we can do nothing, but what indeed, can we do with Him???? Great question.  So let us walk in the Spirit so we DO NOT do the deeds of the carnal nature!  Of course in our old selves we can do nothing! But who says we are to remain that way? ARE we not NEW CREATIONS?  Can we not do all things through Christ who strengthens us? . And thank you Craig, for that EXCELLENT QUESTION.

Doug
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G. Driggs

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Re: Today you will be with me in Paradise?
« Reply #35 on: March 11, 2011, 06:22:34 PM »

Quote
Did Jesus say 'he who abides in in Me, and I in him, MY FATHER will produce much fruit'? No, John 15:5 states that he who has Christ abiding IN him, that believer will produce much fruit.

Mr. Smith quotes:
It is ALL OF GOD.  Faith to believe God, to believe in God, to believe His Word, must come FROM GOD (Eph. 2:08).  It is a GIFT from God.  We don't choose Christ, but rather He chooses us (John 15:16), and we do not come to Christ, but rather the Father drags us (John 6:44).  And we do not produce spiritual fruit. Our spiritual fruit comes from another source than ourselves, it is the "fruit OF THE SPIRIT," that's the source.

GOD BLESS

Hi Gordon, can you please provide a link to where Ray said that. I personally could not find it, but I may have missed it. Thanks.

G.Driggs
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DougE6

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Re: Today you will be with me in Paradise?
« Reply #36 on: March 11, 2011, 10:36:33 PM »

Quote
Job tells us in verse 21, "...Naked came I out of my mother's womb, and naked shall I return: the LORD gave, and the LORD has taken away: blessed be the name of the LORD."

Did Job say the wind killed his children?  No.  Did Job say Satan killed his children?  No.  Job said God killed his children, "...the LORD has taken away..."

No question these scriptures are very comforting.  I/we can trust God to use the "junkyard dog" in a way completely above and beyond any way that we can, and as God is the ultimate cause, I am calmed by that usage for I trust Him!  As God goaded satan and did turn the junkyard dog on Job (within the constraints God set)  we really do need to have some comforting words after that terrible episode, that God is in charge, that God did set the parameters, and so it helps us to see past satans malevolent hand to Gods benevolent hand, and that really changes things! GOD TOTALLY FIXED ALL THAT SATAN DID! WE NEED READ THE WHOLE STORY! WE SEE HOW THE STORY ENDED AND JOB WAS MADE WHOLE!  Maybe my major disagreement with your statements when you speak of evils and say "God the Father did it" is you actually are not privy to see these things unfold in the heavenly realms, and you cannot know or speak of how God is going to make it all whole in the end.  Therefore I feel it is more prudent to blame the immediate causes, but yet look to God in faith that He will restore, that He will make it all good, all whole in the end.  When you do not/cannot completely explain it all, as the book of Job did, I think it is not prudent to say that God is the one doing it. Because from our very limited view, we can only see the work of satan, we cannot see the plan or future work of God.  We can only in faith see that God will overcome all this.  So we run the real risk of making God seem like satan, when he is not.  I know that is not your intent, but it can be perceived that way. 
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Duane

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Re: Today you will be with me in Paradise?
« Reply #37 on: March 11, 2011, 11:05:25 PM »

After reading all these threads until my eyes are blurry--one scripture comes to mind --good works are for the person to do "that others may SEE your good works and GLORIFY (not the person) your Father, who is in heaven."   Pretty deep, huh?  LOL
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Foxx

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Re: Today you will be with me in Paradise?
« Reply #38 on: March 12, 2011, 12:03:05 AM »

Wow, So many responses. I have been reading many of them. Some of which are off topic but I understand how all this stuff is connected in some form or fashion but it's my first time checking this thread in a week so I just wanted to thank everyone for all of the useful input! I will use it and think on this to further my understanding.   ;)
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