Today you will be with me in Paradise?

[Foxx]

Luke 23:43 - Jesus answered him, "I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise."

I was wondering what this means exactly? When we die we are awaiting ressurection and then judgment correct? What does this mean and other verses that may reference "paradise"? I have my ideas but I would like other's thoughts.

Thanks!

[arion]

Ray has spoken on this but I don't have the reference at hand...I'm sure others will jump in.  What I do know however is that there is no punctuation in the Greek language and where the comma is put in this verse makes all the difference in the world.

Luke 23:43 - Jesus answered him, "I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise."

Unscriptural.

Luke 23:43 - Jesus answered him, "I tell you the truth today, you will be with me in paradise."

Scriptural.

A few other versions....

Luk 23:43  And he said unto him—Verily, I say unto thee this day: With me, shalt thou be in Paradise.  (Rotherhams)

Luk 23:43  And said to him the Jesus: Indeed I say to thee to-day, with me thou shalt be in the Paradise.  (Emphatic Diaglott)

Luk 23:43 And Jesus said to him, "Verily, to you am I saying today, with Me shall you be in paradise. (Concordant Literal Version)

Hope that helps.

[Foxx]

Holy guacamole....I would never have thought of that. Do you know of a reason why the punctuation would be changed? is there some sort of conspiracy in the catholic church that they would have done this?

I mean, I can see the big differences. But if the translations other than the KJV support this then wouldn't most of Christianity just say we are playing "apologetic's advocate"? Is there some other way to prove this?

[Craig]

Check out the FAQ section, you can find the answers quickly to questions that are asked again and again over the years.

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,11614.0.html

Craig

[Kat]

Hi Foxx,

i think this email will help withthis question.

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,979.0.html ----

It is not kosher to quote half of a verse when it has a larger context.  Jesus did not begin a sentence with: "TODAY you shall be with me in paradise," did He?  No, Jesus said: "Verily I say unto thee TODAY shall you be with Me in paradise."  But even that is King James translating, and King James is not inerrant.  Notice how the great scholar Joseph Bryant Rotherham renders this verse:  "Verily I say unto thee this day:  With me shalt thou be in Paradise."  But as a footnote he suggests that "This day with me shalt...." as a possibility. So what's the solution?  God tells us how to solve this verse and every other verse of Scripture:  "That no prophecy of scripture becomes self-solving" (II Pet. 1:20, Rotherham), "That no prophecy of scripture at all is becoming its OWN explanation" (Concordant LNT).
We must go to other Scriptures to explain what is mean by this Scripture.

But is this what theology does?  No, theologians say this this verse EXPLAINS ITSELF --"That VERY DAY the thief went with Christ TO HEAVEN."  Oh really?  That is not what the REST of the Bible teaches.

DON'T "assume" that "paradise" means heaven. Why would you do that?  Is there any Scriptural justification for that?  NO, no there isn't.  In what way do the Scriptures liken paradise to heaven?  Most theologians assume things that AREN'T there, and then teach the absolute opposite of what things ARE in the Scriptures.  "Paradise" is a Persian word that means "park or garden."

There is the mention of only two primary "gardens" in Scripture: The "tree of life" (Gen. 2:9) is found in Garden of Eden (Gen. 2:9).  And what else is that Garden of Eden called?  Answer: "To him that overcomes will I give to eat of the TREE OF LIFE, which is in the midst of the PARADISE of God" (Rev. 2:7).

[1]  The "Garden of Eden."  Was that garden, "heaven?"  What did we find in that garden:  (1) the knowledge of EVIL, (2) rebellion and SIN, (3) a flaming SWORD, (4) the pronouncement of CURSES, and (5) the lying SERPENT (Satan--Rev. 12:9).

[2]  The "Garden of Gethsemane."  Was that garden "heaven?"  What did we find in that garden?  (1) The Apostles DESERTED Jesus in this garden,  (2) Judas BETRAYED Jesus in this garden, (3) an army of wicked elders, scribes and chief priest with clubs and SWORDS, (4) Jesus is carried away from this garden to be CRUCIFIED, and (5) This garden contained the TOMB in which the DEAD Jesus was placed.

Do any of this evils in these two paradise gardens sound like "heaven" to you?  I don't care if there are NO commas in Luke 23:43.  Commas do not make or break the Scriptures of God.  This verse does not contradict hundreds and hundreds of other Scriptures as the Church teaches it does.  That day, "today," both Jesus AND the thief, DIED AND THEY WERE DEAD

This is a large subject involving the different resurrections, and the Judgments of God. It will take a sizable paper to cover it properly and I cannot do it now. Hope you understand.

God be with you,
Ray

[Linny]

Also Foxx, all the proof you need...
Did Jesus go to "heaven" that day? We know that He did not. The church doesn't even teach that He did. Therefore, if he told the thief he'd be in heaven with Him that very day, he lied.

[Foxx]

Well I didn't believe that Jesus went to heaven, I guess I was wondering more about what "paradise" is exactly and what his statement meant.

[Dave in Tenn]

In terms of the mission of the website, what church teaching contradicts the scripture (or makes the scripture 'contradict' itself falsely?  Ray mentions this one:  Paradise is not Heaven.

So that seems to be where your question comes in.  If its not Heaven, then what it is?

As always with those not His disciples, Jesus was speaking Spiritually, and in a parable.  It is no more a literal "place" than "hades" is.  Since that's the case, then it doesn't matter nearly as much (if at all) where the 'comma' goes.

What does Ray say about the Persian word 'paradise' and it's greek translation to our English 'garden'?  It is used concerning two places in Scripture.  Once In Hebrew Old Testament, once in Greek New Testament.  Words are defined everywhere (including Scripture) by their usage.  Since it's parable and Spiritual, maybe its OK to contemplate openly.  So here goes.

I do think that the words were a comfort to the thief.  I guess its possible that they had no effect on him other than to harden his heart...I just don't think that was the case.  I've certainly been bitter enough to reject all comfort.  But given what's been said, I think the message for those with eyes and ears is similar to Psalm 23.  Yea, though I walk through the Valley of the shadow of Death (and all these men knew for absolute certain that they were very near there) I will fear no evil.  If 'death' is not an 'evil', I don't know what an evil is.

The 'gardens' in Scripture were places of 'evil', as Ray pointed out above.  We know that both these 'evils' were unavoidable.  We have faith to believe that both are necessary for the Creation of Mankind into the image of God.  The Son prayed and sweated blood asking the Father to let this cup pass.  But it could not.  

So maybe this 'garden' or 'paradise' that Jesus mentioned is the sure knowledge of our own mortality and the momentous and necessary act of dying.  Nothing changes life more than dying.  With Grace, we also understand the 'dying' we are doing before this body gives out.

Spiritual and parable.  Given for our admonition so the man of God may be perfect.  That's what I get out of it today.

Does that help?  I'm not sure it will, but maybe it doesn't hurt.  

[G. Driggs]

Maybe I'm a little confused. Isn't To eat of the Tree of Life a good thing? I mean to be in paradise the garden, even though it's an evil experience, isn't it the way all of Gods elect are headed for their ultimate good? Is Rev. 2:7 a witness to Luke 23:43?

G. Driggs

[Dave in Tenn]

Could be, George.

Rev 2:7  He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.

The dying we're doing IS the overcoming, I believe.  Paul said it this way...For I am crucified with Christ.  NEVERTHELESS I LIVE...yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.  Isn't that 'the Tree of Life in the midst of the paradise of God'?  Christ in me, the hope of Glory?


As an aside, it was the eating of the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil that Ray referred to as the evil of the first garden.  I'm not sure if you got that one crossed up with the Tree of Life in your question.  Remember too that evil is not always 'sin', and whether it is or not, God uses and intends evil for our good--whether we see it or not.

[Duane]

I was always fascinated by "today, thou shalt be with me in paradise". 
I always mused:  What about the religions that teach that in order for one to get to heaven--one MUST be baptized, or "baptized 'in the church' ".  (Kind of hard to do hanging on a cross!)
Why wouldn't Jesus, of ALL people, NOT administer "last rites"?  Last rites were never mentioned in the Bible-so whose idea was this?  I speculate it is more for comforting the family--that the religious figure looks like he is doing SOMETHING constructive.

[Kat]

I have to believe that nothing Jesus Christ said was for appearances, but every word that came out of His mouth had profound meaning and purpose.

As I have been thinking about this phrase that Jesus Christ said to the man dying next to Him.

Luke 23:43 And Jesus said to him, "Verily, to you am I saying today, with Me shall you be in paradise." (CLV)

We do not know what the thief on the cross next to Jesus believed, but he may not have believed in the resurrection of the dead... Jesus did know. Couldn't it have been that Jesus was giving this man a bit of truth about his final destination? "With Me SHALL you be in paradise," SHALL BE in a future time. What greater truth could a dying man receive than the knowledge he would be bought back in a resurrection and one day be in paradise with the Lord. As He was breathing His last breaths, some of His final words before He died was giving truth and comfort to another.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[cjwood]

i love this thread.  it caused me to really ask myself, "why did Jesus say this statement to the dying thief?" especially knowing that Jesus knew there was no place that He and the thief were getting ready to go to in death, other than the grave.  but, after reading through all the posts, i am seeing that ray was not saying that both gardens mentioned in Scripture were evil, but that evil was also present in both of these gardens.  i had the same thoughts as g. driggs, regarding, how can the garden of eden be considered evil when the tree of life was also there.  the tree of life being Jesus Christ.

and then after reading john of kentucky's response that from the perspective of the thief, the words of Jesus will be absolutely true, since there is no remembrance in death.  and with kat's comments about Jesus' speaking emphatically that the thief SHALL be with Him in paradise, and this could be Jesus sharing a truth about the thief's future destination upon his resurrection.  and after reading kat's describing Jesus' soothing words to the dying thief, while He was also suffering much physical pain, even unto His last breaths.

thanks for all of this brothers/sisters. thanks Abba Father.

claudia

[G. Driggs]

I think I understand a little better. It might take some time for me to digest. Thanks all.

G.Driggs

[Marky Mark]

 
 
I like to look at the perspective of paradise in these Scriptural terms,just thinking out loud here. 


Joh 15:1 I am the true Grapevine, and My Father is the Farmer."

The Father is the Farmer and The Son is Abba's created Spiritual True Grapevine in The Fathers Spiritual Garden. Just as we also are Christ's Spiritual garden who shall bear Spiritual fruit from the Grapevine.

Luk 23:43 And Jesus said to him, "Verily, to you am I saying today, with Me shall you be in paradise."

With me shall you seems to be applying the Word of God into a yet future resurrection for the thief, where Christ, shall be in the thief, and the thief, shall be in the Christ,upon Spiritual conversion.

. Rev 2:7  He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.

Jesus Christ is that paradise in the midst of The Fathers Farm.He that shall overcome will eat of the vine and partake in the fruit thereof.

Joh 15:5 I am the Grapevine. You are the branches. He who is remaining in Me, and I in him, this one is bringing forth much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing."

The tree of life[Jesus] is in the midst of the Father[The Farmer], in which His Garden [Paradise] grows because;

1Co 15:28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

So shall all overcomers be in the midst of Paradise[Christ], in Christ.

2Co 12:4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.

Paul was in the third [three being the process of Spiritual completion] heaven,which is the most mature Spiritual realm,where Christ dwells with the Father,in the heavens.

Gods elect [and all eventually] will also be caught up into Paradise,in the third heaven,which is in Christ Jesus.

Eph 2:6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly [places] in Christ Jesus:

Gods elect,down through the eons will be with Him in Paradise,just as all mankind will [ including the thief] after their Spiritual conversion in Christ [Paradise].

Jas 5:7 Be patient, then, brethren, till the presence of the Lord. Lo! the farmer is waiting for the precious fruit of the land, being patient about it, till it should be getting the early and late showers."
Jas 5:8 You also, then, be patient; establish your hearts, for the presence of the Lord is near."  



Hope this helps some.

Peace...Mark

[Craig]

I'm just trying to understand why we insist on applying human terms to a word and or words that we cannot possibly fathom in God's realm.  Why can't we just accept that it is going to be a wonderful place, a place better than where we are now, and leave it at that?

Craig

[One Love]

Thank you Craig,
I wanted to say this from a long time, infact I tried in another post, WOW! the outcome.
Why all the scriptures and trying to relate the words when we're not in line with the "SPIRIT & TRUTH"
The faith is not for all, leave it to Mr. Smith, if he decides to partake or have papers on that topic, then you should relate it, which some members do, you'll will confuse me and all newcomers from christiandom, or that's how christiandom works, that's were we all come from, right!
Some scriptures quoted or explained don't even fit the actual topic. Some quote Greek & Hebrew words but can't give a precise conclusion. We come hear to understand what the SPIRIT shows to the elect, that's Mr. Smith, not celebrate pagan wishes or PHYSICAL happenings, like please pray for my granny's granny, etc.
Read & pray before we post.

Someone said they'll pray for me on my last post but they did not even know my right name (1LUV), how could you! Who's 1LUV? Now I use my proper name for that same reason, so if someone prays for me, I'll know it's for me.

GOD BLESS!

[Duane]

Craig...the whole purpose of the FORUM is to not let ANY truth escape being search thru.  Like a cow chewing it's cud over and over until milk is finally produced, same goes here except it's the "milk of the Word" PRODUCED IN OUR LIVES. 
One persons "insignificant detail" can be food for a whole book!  I think of the book on the 23rd Psalm where the author wrote a whole book on "sheep beside the still water"--and other facts about sheep.  Now who cares about whether thirsty sheep drink from "still waters" or not??  The sheep!  Why? A sheep's nose is such that it can ONLY drink from STILL water or it gets water up it's nose and can't drink! Something spurred the person to take on the project.
My father once said "a specialist" is someone who stives to know more and more about less and less! 
So there we go.  I personally learned something from a detail on the FORUM that years and years of church never addressed. 
That being, the 12 baskets of fish and bread fragments could represent those souls who were not saved during the initial "harvest"
being this life.  What a simple revelation--but it made me feel warm all over to think I got something new revealed to me from the Bible.  Datails, details--so there we go!

[Craig]

One subject will dovetail into another subject.  Flow on mighty spiritual river!

Or one subject will split off from a subject and then another and before you know it the spiritual river is just a trickle.

Craig

[Craig]

Duane I'm not saying this applies to you but your post did prompt this reply to everyone.

I have been a part of the forum from the beginning, and I have seen much growth and knowledge gained by the members.  I wish I had half the knowledge and strength as some of you.  But I often wonder (about myself as well as the rest of the members) what has our knowledge profited?  Have we become religious elephants? able to carry large loads of knowledge?  If so what is the fruits of this vast knowledge? Are we dying to self?  Are we becoming more humble? less carnal?  Are we becoming a light in a world of darkness?  

Or are we becoming religious hobbyist with ADD?  Running to a fro looking for the next revelation and then switching gears when the next revelation happens along?  Do we only want to live on the peaks?  Or do we relish the journey?  Do we feel special because we got a revelation or do we know we are special because we are children of God?

Now I'm not claiming anyone here fits this mold but I do want us all to do a little soul searching.  Knowledge does not make us the elect nor makes us any more spiritual than an atheist.  Ray and his teaching has opened up the scripture to the real Good News that God has given us and for that I am eternally grateful.  Are we making the best use of this knowledge and are we applying it where the rubber meets the road? Or are we filling the bed of the truck up but when we get ready to start down the road we find we have no wheels or motor?

Food for thought.
Craig