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Today you will be with me in Paradise?
mharrell08:
--- Quote from: Gordon on March 11, 2011, 12:56:01 PM ---Marques
Please make me understand this! every scripture you quoted below seems that Jesus is doing or speaking about the FATHER or thru the Father
--- End quote ---
Gordon, I can nothing more than post the scriptures I have. Without God it is impossible, but WITH God, ALL THINGS are possible [Matt 19:26, Mark 10:27, Luke 18:27]. But 'only to those who believe' [Mark 9:23]. Paul said that it is God working IN US, to will and to do [Phil 2:13]...and if He is IN US, then we can produce much fruit [John 15:5].
Did Jesus say 'he who abides in in Me, and I in him, MY FATHER will produce much fruit'? No, John 15:5 states that he who has Christ abiding IN him, that believer will produce much fruit.
Marques
mharrell08:
--- Quote from: John from Kentucky on March 11, 2011, 01:09:06 PM ---Hi Marques,
I don't believe that there are any fundamental disagreements between us. I was being a little stinko by asking my question. It was a rhetorical question. I already knew the answer to the question before I asked. Both faith and works are needed. James and Paul do not contradict.
I asked the question because I keep on picking up an undercurrent of thought here that somehow we are in some way responsible for the works we do. Maybe it's none of my business. But I perceive that thought from various sources here.
However, you cannot disregard the fact that Jesus said the Father did the works. Jesus was the agent, the Spokesman, but everything He (Jesus) said or did came (and comes) from the Father.
--- End quote ---
Hello John,
I placed in bold the reason you are 'picking up' this train of thought. No one is disregarding Who and What the Father is but you constantly assume so in the forum members. You need to give the members a little more credit in their understanding of the Truths of God.
For example, there is no need for someone to constantly state 'If God Wills' before and after every statement they make on this forum. We all already know this. We also know that it is God who opened our understanding, even if He used a retired roofer.
So as God is dwelling in us, opening our understanding, we also know we will do good works because we abide in Him and He in us. Jesus said so and Jesus is not a liar. The Father isn't typing on your keyboard, you are. The Father didn't find BT to read Ray Smith's teachings, you did. And only because He was IN you.
Hope this helps,
Marques
One Love:
--- Quote ---Did Jesus say 'he who abides in in Me, and I in him, MY FATHER will produce much fruit'? No, John 15:5 states that he who has Christ abiding IN him, that believer will produce much fruit.
--- End quote ---
Mr. Smith quotes:
It is ALL OF GOD. Faith to believe God, to believe in God, to believe His Word, must come FROM GOD (Eph. 2:08). It is a GIFT from God. We don't choose Christ, but rather He chooses us (John 15:16), and we do not come to Christ, but rather the Father drags us (John 6:44). And we do not produce spiritual fruit. Our spiritual fruit comes from another source than ourselves, it is the "fruit OF THE SPIRIT," that's the source.
GOD BLESS
mharrell08:
--- Quote from: Gordon on March 11, 2011, 02:27:53 PM ---
--- Quote ---Did Jesus say 'he who abides in in Me, and I in him, MY FATHER will produce much fruit'? No, John 15:5 states that he who has Christ abiding IN him, that believer will produce much fruit.
--- End quote ---
Mr. Smith quotes:
It is ALL OF GOD. Faith to believe God, to believe in God, to believe His Word, must come FROM GOD (Eph. 2:08). It is a GIFT from God. We don't choose Christ, but rather He chooses us (John 15:16), and we do not come to Christ, but rather the Father drags us (John 6:44). And we do not produce spiritual fruit. Our spiritual fruit comes from another source than ourselves, it is the "fruit OF THE SPIRIT," that's the source.
GOD BLESS
--- End quote ---
Gordon, you want to argue just for the sake of arguing and I'm done with it. Jesus said these things are possible to those who believe [Mark 9:23], and since you don't, there is nothing more to be said.
DougE6:
Hello John
I know you LOVE to emphasize almost continuously how all is of God, and how it is God who does all the works. And I understand that, but I think my perspective is different. And you like rhetorical questions. OK so here is a rhetorical question, that may help me show what I mean. Why did God create Satan? Why would God have an in between? Of what REAL use is Satan? Why can’t God directly cause all the pains and evils, why can't God directly make the rapist to rape, and the terrorist to blow someone away, if as you say, God the Father is actually doing it? Seriously, why does God need Satan? I mean, God the Father does all the works, right?
I think, to answer my own rhetorical question, that since God IS NOT EVIL HIMSELF, He made Satan to be EVIL to do those very evil things that God has no stomach to do so. It is not God who is raping little children; it is evil men who are drawn away by their own lusts. It is Satan, who of his evil desires, being instrumental in directly causing these evil things. God needs evil to accomplish his works, to make us into His image, and has created both evil and evil beings and evil people, but God does not DIRECTLY do these things. He created beings to do these evil things, so He would not have too!!!
Of course God steers everything, and God is responsible for everything. God may goad satan to do things, or play “chess” with him, but when I or Satan or you do something evil, it is the lusts in ourselves that we are willingly obeying. We are the ones that do it. Not God. Even if it could NOT be otherwise, even if we are so subject to causes that if the event was repeated over and over the same outcome would result, doesn't change the fact that YOU or I DID IT. And we do it willingly and with intent. I am at peace with this. I feel God can justly judge me and hold me accountable. Even as I know He has planned all my steps, I still take ownership and despise the evil within me, and repent of my evil acts with tears. And as I grow in Him, thank God, less and less evil comes through and from me.
So, with Jesus in me, I find myself doing righteous things, and Less evil things! I have FAR LESS lusts in me than I have had before. I love others, and I want to DO things to help them. I think Craig asked a question near and dear to my heart. I do NOT want to stand before Jesus and say, I have no good actions, but, but, I have a lot of knowledge! NO NO NO. If anyones’ understanding of God doing all the works is SUCH that they end up using that AS AN EXCUSE to actually not to try, not to wrestle, then you are in a sad state indeed. It is not an EXCUSE NOT TO STRUGGLE AND OBEY! I want to DO something with all this newfound LOVE and UNDERSTANDINGS! I want to do the works of JESUS. I WANT TO OBEY! I want to live pure and holy. I want to love righteousness and hate wickedness. I want to give to others. I want to treat all my customers fairly. I want to be trustworthy and full of integrity. I want to be used for good.
I fully understand Marques words, I thought his explanations, the bible verses, were spot on and wonderful. Without Him we can do nothing, but what indeed, can we do with Him???? Great question. So let us walk in the Spirit so we DO NOT do the deeds of the carnal nature! Of course in our old selves we can do nothing! But who says we are to remain that way? ARE we not NEW CREATIONS? Can we not do all things through Christ who strengthens us? . And thank you Craig, for that EXCELLENT QUESTION.
Doug
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