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Today you will be with me in Paradise?
Linny:
Also Foxx, all the proof you need...
Did Jesus go to "heaven" that day? We know that He did not. The church doesn't even teach that He did. Therefore, if he told the thief he'd be in heaven with Him that very day, he lied.
Foxx:
Well I didn't believe that Jesus went to heaven, I guess I was wondering more about what "paradise" is exactly and what his statement meant.
Dave in Tenn:
In terms of the mission of the website, what church teaching contradicts the scripture (or makes the scripture 'contradict' itself falsely? Ray mentions this one: Paradise is not Heaven.
So that seems to be where your question comes in. If its not Heaven, then what it is?
As always with those not His disciples, Jesus was speaking Spiritually, and in a parable. It is no more a literal "place" than "hades" is. Since that's the case, then it doesn't matter nearly as much (if at all) where the 'comma' goes.
What does Ray say about the Persian word 'paradise' and it's greek translation to our English 'garden'? It is used concerning two places in Scripture. Once In Hebrew Old Testament, once in Greek New Testament. Words are defined everywhere (including Scripture) by their usage. Since it's parable and Spiritual, maybe its OK to contemplate openly. So here goes.
I do think that the words were a comfort to the thief. I guess its possible that they had no effect on him other than to harden his heart...I just don't think that was the case. I've certainly been bitter enough to reject all comfort. But given what's been said, I think the message for those with eyes and ears is similar to Psalm 23. Yea, though I walk through the Valley of the shadow of Death (and all these men knew for absolute certain that they were very near there) I will fear no evil. If 'death' is not an 'evil', I don't know what an evil is.
The 'gardens' in Scripture were places of 'evil', as Ray pointed out above. We know that both these 'evils' were unavoidable. We have faith to believe that both are necessary for the Creation of Mankind into the image of God. The Son prayed and sweated blood asking the Father to let this cup pass. But it could not.
So maybe this 'garden' or 'paradise' that Jesus mentioned is the sure knowledge of our own mortality and the momentous and necessary act of dying. Nothing changes life more than dying. With Grace, we also understand the 'dying' we are doing before this body gives out.
Spiritual and parable. Given for our admonition so the man of God may be perfect. That's what I get out of it today.
Does that help? I'm not sure it will, but maybe it doesn't hurt. :)
G. Driggs:
Maybe I'm a little confused. Isn't To eat of the Tree of Life a good thing? I mean to be in paradise the garden, even though it's an evil experience, isn't it the way all of Gods elect are headed for their ultimate good? Is Rev. 2:7 a witness to Luke 23:43?
G. Driggs
Dave in Tenn:
Could be, George.
Rev 2:7 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.
The dying we're doing IS the overcoming, I believe. Paul said it this way...For I am crucified with Christ. NEVERTHELESS I LIVE...yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. Isn't that 'the Tree of Life in the midst of the paradise of God'? Christ in me, the hope of Glory?
As an aside, it was the eating of the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil that Ray referred to as the evil of the first garden. I'm not sure if you got that one crossed up with the Tree of Life in your question. Remember too that evil is not always 'sin', and whether it is or not, God uses and intends evil for our good--whether we see it or not.
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