Traditional Church Doctrines?

[Linny]

Craig, how about this one?

What Traditional Christians Say... What They Really Mean...
"There's nothing you must do to be saved......" "Here's what you must do to be saved:"
"You are absolutely, totally helpless to save yourself." "You must make a wise decision in order to be saved."
"God controls all things." "God doesn't control man's free will."
"We can't boast about going to heaven." "If we go to hell, it's our own fault."
"Love never faileth!" "Love can't overcome human stubbornness."
"Men are in bondage to sin." "Men are free to choose Christ."
"Grace is unmerited favor..." "... given only to those who merit it with faith and obedience."
"GOD IS THE SAVIOR OF ALL MANKIND (1 Tim. 4:10)..." "... except for about ninety percent of them."
"GOD'S LOVE IS UNCONDITIONAL..." "... as long as you meet certain conditions."
"GOD'S WILL IS UNOPPOSABLE..." "... except by the sinner."
"Salvation is not a thing of chance." "There is no second chance to be saved."
"WE HAVE GOOD NEWS FOR YOU!" "Most of mankind will perish forever."
"GOD LOVES YOU!" "... as long as you love Him."
"Christ died for all sin..." "... except the sin of not believing that He died for all sin."
"The Good Shepherd seeks the lost sheep until he finds it!" "The Good Shepherd seeks until it's too late."
"God's justice was satisfied in the cross of Christ." "God's justice demands eternal torment or annihilation.

[Craig]

Yes Linny where was that?

Craig

[Akira329]

Craig I'm not sure if Ray used this quote.
But I did find it here:
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,8140.0.html

Seems it was from a Mike Miller but his website seems lacking a lot of content including this quote.
Nonetheless, nice quotes!

[Linny]

Interesting Akira. I was going to say I didn't know where I had found it as I am a cut and paster. I find nuggets here or from the BT site when I read and I save them in my files. That was one I had liked but do not remember where I had gotten it but it is in my Ray files.

[believerchrist100]

Craig, how about this one?

What Traditional Christians Say... What They Really Mean...
"There's nothing you must do to be saved......" "Here's what you must do to be saved:"
"You are absolutely, totally helpless to save yourself." "You must make a wise decision in order to be saved."
"God controls all things." "God doesn't control man's free will."
"We can't boast about going to heaven." "If we go to hell, it's our own fault."
"Love never faileth!" "Love can't overcome human stubbornness."
"Men are in bondage to sin." "Men are free to choose Christ."
"Grace is unmerited favor..." "... given only to those who merit it with faith and obedience."
"GOD IS THE SAVIOR OF ALL MANKIND (1 Tim. 4:10)..." "... except for about ninety percent of them."
"GOD'S LOVE IS UNCONDITIONAL..." "... as long as you meet certain conditions."
"GOD'S WILL IS UNOPPOSABLE..." "... except by the sinner."
"Salvation is not a thing of chance." "There is no second chance to be saved."
"WE HAVE GOOD NEWS FOR YOU!" "Most of mankind will perish forever."
"GOD LOVES YOU!" "... as long as you love Him."
"Christ died for all sin..." "... except the sin of not believing that He died for all sin."
"The Good Shepherd seeks the lost sheep until he finds it!" "The Good Shepherd seeks until it's too late."
"God's justice was satisfied in the cross of Christ." "God's justice demands eternal torment or annihilation.

This is an excellent one, it really states in a nutshell the doubletalk of traditional Christians quite clearly.  I remember first reading it on Gary Arimault's Tentmaker website a couple of years ago before I found Bible Truths and had been just introduced to the doctrine of the Reconciliation of All.

[Akira329]

Interesting Akira. I was going to say I didn't know where I had found it as I am a cut and paster. I find nuggets here or from the BT site when I read and I save them in my files. That was one I had liked but do not remember where I had gotten it but it is in my Ray files.

I do the same thing Linny!
I have a BT folder with some threads that I liked!

Antaiwan

[Myms]

I don't think this comes under 'traditional church doctrines', possibly 'new fangled ideas'. Has anyone heard of 'Harp and Bowl' style of worship? I think it started in the US and has spread to several countries including here in the UK. Churches involved quote this: 'The 'Harp and Bowl' style of worship is not new but a restoration of what once existed here on earth and is now going on around the throne of God now. In 1 Chron. 15 –16, King David established praise and worship mixed with music and prayers in the Tabernacle of David. During his reign, there was constant praise and worship going on twenty-four hours, seven days a week before the Ark of the Covenant for over thirty years. In Revelation 4 and 5, this style of worship is going on around the throne of God where the twenty-four elders fall before the Lamb, each one holding a harp and bowl, which represent the worship and prayers of the saints.

Is this going on around the throne of God now? I think Ray would say that Rev 4 & 5 has a spiritual meaning and is symbolic.

M

[dave]

The rest of our conversation was that everything of any consequence the church teaches (not says) is 180 degrees opposite of the truth.

My question to Ray was "is there anything of any consequence the church teaches you have not taught on?" We both thought it over for a few minutes and could not come up with anything. But there are some things to think about here.

The point I was trying to make is the truth is always the opposite of what the church as a whole teaches.

If you have questions and want to know the truth, it's usually the opposite of what the church teaches (not says, e.g., they say Christ died for our sins, but they teach He never really died but was preaching in Hell).

This to me is a miracle and constantly amazes me.

Yes, I agree

[daywalker]

The rest of our conversation was that everything of any consequence the church teaches (not says) is 180 degrees opposite of the truth.

My question to Ray was "is there anything of any consequence the church teaches you have not taught on?" We both thought it over for a few minutes and could not come up with anything. But there are some things to think about here.

The point I was trying to make is the truth is always the opposite of what the church as a whole teaches.

If you have questions and want to know the truth, it's usually the opposite of what the church teaches (not says, e.g., they say Christ died for our sins, but they teach He never really died but was preaching in Hell).

This to me is a miracle and constantly amazes me.

Yes, I agree

No kidding, me too!

It's one thing for an average church-goer that isn't really that familiar with the Bible (like my former self) to believe in so many false teachings; but when I hear someone talking about the Bible and quoting lots of verses--clearly showing that they are familiar with it and have spent some time studying it--yet they have no clue as to what they are talking about, it boggles my mind! Just earlier today, this friend of a friend was here at my work and I stumbled into their conversation, and this guy was quoting verse after verse, yet all the stuff he was saying in-between the verses was unscriptural and quite frankly stupid (nothing personal against the guy, he seemed really cool, but he was talking nonsense). It took everything that I had to keep my cool and not say anything or laugh as it just wasn't the proper time or place.


....Anyway, I am really looking forward to the article and video for Ray's upcoming bible study 

[AK4]

I havent read all the way through this thread yet so if it was mentioned already sorry.

But how about the doctrine of "Jesus being MY personal Saviour" vs Jesus actually being the Saviour of the whole world.  Ray does touch on this "personal saviour" teaching but.....

Actually, I take it back, Ray did fully tackle this subject.  The thing is as we also have to rightly divide the word, even with all of Rays writings we have to sometimes do the same (rightly divide his teachings) meaning Ray covers this doctrine and others throughout all his writings but some of it is here and some of it is over there or as the scriptures say "here a little, there a little, precept upon precept".

I remember in one of Rays videos he was saying that what he was trying to teach us is the basic principals or foundations and then after that everything should fall in place if we just learn these.  And that is what he actually has done, for instance just off the top of my head i can think of several different places where Ray maybe didnt directly "focus" on the personal saviour teaching but he did teach against this doctrine.  At least to me throughout the LOF series, the other writings on the site, the emails, the videos, Ray has pretty much hit it all. (i think )

In Jesus
Anthony