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Greatest Challenge - own house
Dave in Tenn:
Tau, I just hope you haven't arrived at this point in the discourse believing that you can't love your wife unless you go to church with her.
Kat:
Hi Doug,
I thought it would be good to bring out what Ray has to say about the churches in Revlation. These excerpts are from articles no. 7 and 11.
http://bible-truths.com/lake7.html ----------------------
THE BOOK OF REVELATION IS TO ALL CHURCHES, IN ALL GENERATIONS, FOR ALL WHO READ THIS PROPHECY, WHEN JESUS OPENS IT TO THEM, IN THEIR OWN LIFETIME (which comes quickly and is over shortly)!
v
Were there not churches (congregations) also in Judea as well? Even in Rome? Why only the seven churches "in ASIA?" Because these seven congregations completed all that Jesus had to say to all congregations, everywhere. This is a COMPLETE revelation for ALL CHURCHES. These seven congregations had within them all of the sins, weaknesses, and shortcomings of all congregations everywhere during ALL TIME. I will make this abundantly and Scripturally clear. But on the positive side, all of the churches had at least a "few names" that were not spiritually defiled, and who will be in the first resurrection as Sons and Daughters of God to bring the rest of the harvest, the great fall harvest into the Kingdom.
These churches that personify in symbol all of God’s church for the past two thousand years, are in fact, the training ground and the proving ground for the elect. Coming out of this carnal system puts one among the called and the chosen and the VERY elect. Paul called it "the HIGH CALLING."
v
Is any so foolish as to think Jesus tells all seven churches to "…hear what the Spirit says to the churches" (all the other plural churches), so that they can compare themselves among themselves and see which one Jesus thinks is the holiest of them all? That is nonsense!
ALL seven churches individually, have ALL the problems and ALL the strengths of all the churches combined. It is ONE prophecy, of ONE church, in ONE hand of Jesus, which combine the characteristics of seven churches in Asia that shared all of the good qualities and all of the shortcomings.
v
It is, of course, the members of the church that have "left their first love." Here is absolute proof that the churches of Revelation personify the whole Church of God down through the centuries until the great white throne judgment.
Whatever is found in the seven (the complete) churches of Revelation is also found in the Churches from the time of John’s vision until the judgment of the world. This vision shows not only the conditions in God’s Church at the time of John’s vision, but of the condition of the Church right down till the judgment of the world.
Revelation is "The Revelation OF Jesus Christ."
v
Just as all the rewards are promised to all the overcomers in all generations of the Church, so likewise, do all the sins and shortcomings apply to all the churches throughout all generations. And the sins and shortcomings of God’s Church are monstrous!
"And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, COME OUT OF HER MY PEOPLE, that you be not partakers of her sins, and that you receive not of her plagues. For her sins have REACHED UNTO HEAVEN, and God has remembered her iniquities" (Rev. 8:5).
Yes, God is talking about His people, who are in His church, but … BUT, who must nonetheless, "REPENT" (Rev. 2:5 & 5, 16, 21, 22, 3:3, 19—seven times, COMPLETE REPENTANCE), and "COME OUT OF HER." Coming out of her is no small part of this "repentance."
http://bible-truths.com/lake11.html --------------------
Does not Jesus dwell and reside in the Seven Churches of God mentioned in the Book of Revelation? Actually, He does not. Let’s read it:
"Unto the angel of the church of Ephesus write; These things says He that holds the seven stars in his right hand, who WALKS in the midst of the seven golden candlesticks" (Rev. 2:1).
Jesus Christ "walks" in the midst of the churches—He does not dwell there; He does not reside there; He does not have His throne there. But someone else does:
SATAN has his "seat [Greek: ‘throne’]" in the Churches (Rev. 2:13)
SATAN "dwells" in the Churches (Rev. 2:13).
SATAN still has his "synagogue" in the Churches (Rev. 2:9 & 3:9).
SATAN’S "depths" of doctrinal evils are in the Churches (Rev. 2:24).
It is Satan who has his "throne" in the Churches--the Throne of Jesus Christ is in Heaven with His Father (Rev. 3:21), not in the church. He is not enthroned in the Church; He merely "walks" in the Churches.
v
Virtually all Christian Churches worldwide have within their doctrines, the depths of Satan. And that is why the cry goes out from God Almighty:
"And I heard another voice from heaven, saying ‘COME OUT OF HER MY PEOPLE, that you be not partakers of her sins, and that you receive not of her plagues" (Rev. 18:4).
Come out of… who? Who is the "her?" Her is a WOMAN. A woman in Scripture is a symbol for a CHURCH.
Who is to "come out?" Answer: "MY people." Where are they? In her, in the CHURCH. What Church? The MOTHER CHURCH. Who is the MOTHER CHURCH?
The church that appears to be so good, with good doctrines, and good teachings and spiritual appearing good works and righteousness, which in reality are abominations:
"And there came one of the seven angels which had the seven vials, and talked with me, saying unto me, Come hither; I will show unto you the judgment of the GREAT WHORE that sits upon many waters [many nations of people]: With whom the kings of the earth have committed fornication [intimate religious/political/economic relationships], and the inhabitants of the earth have been made [spiritually] DRUNK with the wine of her fornication. So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet colored beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns. And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet color, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of ABOMINATIONS and FILTHINESS of her FORNICATION: And upon her forehead [where WE should have the name of God our Father, Rev. 14:1, but this mother church has instead…] …a name written,
MYSTERY, BABYLON, THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH" (Rev. 17:1-5).
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mercy, peace and love
Kat
tau:
Hi Dave
Not quiet, for me its more of a balancing act ::), if love is the greatest commandment and the first love is to God the Father, then every word that comes from Him should be carefully considered. I am of the view that one carries a whole lot of responsibility once one's eyes are open. The process has to be progressively upwards, it is incremental gains, yet now and then you come to a cross roads and having carefully considered the two, you are not sure which one is best - true, not going to church with my wife does not necessarily mean i love her less, thats me, it is however another thing whether her interpretation will be the same as mine. it also has a potential to have spill over effects in affecting general family interactions and might make it even harder to try and convince\show ??? her of a higher responsibility following God is all about - as she could (as a way of axample) switch-off in protest, not having been given what to her was support - an act of love. I am painfully aware that the spiritual follows the physical, but finding myself having to restle between being a supportive (loving, longsuffering, peace loving and enduring) husband and one who leaves by the code (being a disciple is no different from being a God soldier) yet even a soldier needs to be weary of personal conduct less it badly affects those dependant on the soldier's moral campass.
So, having wrestled for a while with; 'do i or do i not' ::), i saw it fit to ask the fellow athlets ;D in Christ how they best would advise of such, we are instructed to run by rules and we are instructed to love, we are instructed to divide the word of truth correctly and still we are required to expose those who contradict, even more we are asked to follow ways of peace with all men and we are asked to be BOLD in the world as Christ was. So, for some of us we are greatful of a forum such as this one, where we could ask and get sound advise. Sure, at the end the decision is still ours, but better an informed and tried and tested decision, than an arbitrary one ;D ;D
Marky Mark:
--- Quote ---OK, Hi Mark
How do you know if I could/might/possibly be one of these?..
--- End quote ---
Hi Doug.
If God is calling you to be of the elect,then you are all of the seven churches as Ray explains in Kats post. Living His word from Genesis thru Revelation in Spirit is the high calling for those with ears to hear and eyes to see.
Joh 9:39 And Jesus said, For judgment I am come into this world, that they which see not might see; and that they which see might be made blind.
1Pe 4:17 For the time [is come] that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if [it] first [begin] at us, what shall the end [be] of them that obey not the gospel of God?
1Pe 4:18 And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?
Those that the Father are calling now through our Lord and Savior, Jesus the Christ, will live by every word that proceeds out of His mouth. Revelation is the revealing of Jesus Christ in you,to be lived now, in your life, now. If it were not so then these verse would be false.
Rev 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:
Rev 1:3 Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.
Rev 22:7 Behold, I come quickly: blessed is he that keepeth the sayings of the prophecy of this book.
Also here are some of Rays email reply's concerning the babylonian church and its effect on ones mindset.
http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,2690.0.html
http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,102.0.html
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,11315.0.html
http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,1188.0.html
Hope this helps some.
Peace...Mark
daywalker:
Hello Doug,
(Apologies, as I know your response was to Mark) but I would just like to respond by pointing out that there is only "one" church--which is the body of Christ, and the House of God (1 Timothy 3:15), inside which are both honorable and dishonorable things (2 Timothy 2:20). My point is that even those of us who are no longer attending any church of Babylon are still members of the same "church" as they are. Therefore, one does not need to be physically attending a church to be one of these "few" mentioned in these verses you quoted.
That being said, when it comes to whether or not you should continue to attend a church service to appease your wife, or whoever, in my opinion--that's between you and God. Personally, I stay away, mainly because I have a natural tendency to open my mouth and I'd probably stir up some sort of situation of which I don't feel I'm prepared for yet nor would it likely result in anything good. Should God desire me to enter a "synagogue of Satan" someday, I know He'll drag me there and guide me in my endeavors. But for now, I stay far away.
Hope this was helpful. God Be With You.
--- Quote from: DougE6 on April 07, 2011, 12:40:09 AM ---
--- Quote ---If God has you in the church of satan
--- End quote ---
OK, Hi Mark :)
How do you know if I could/might/possibly be one of these?.. ???
Rev 3:4 Yet you have still a few names in Sardis, people who have not soiled their garments, and they will walk with me in white, for they are worthy. Rev 3:5 The one who conquers will be clothed thus in white garments, and I will never blot his name out of the book of life. I will confess his name before my Father and before his angels.
or these? ???....Rev 3:10 Because you have kept my word about patient endurance, I will keep you from the hour of trial that is coming on the whole world, to try those who dwell on the earth.
or these? ???....Rev 3:12 The one who conquers, I will make him a pillar in the temple of my God. Never shall he go out of it, and I will write on him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem, which comes down from my God out of heaven, and my own new name.
or these? ???... Rev 2:10 Do not fear what you are about to suffer. Behold, the devil is about to throw some of you into prison, that you may be tested, and for ten days you will have tribulation. Be faithful unto death, and I will give you the crown of life....
or these? ??? Rev 2:13 "'I know where you dwell, where Satan's throne is. Yet you hold fast my name, and you did not deny my faith even in the days of Antipas my faithful witness, who was killed among you, where Satan dwells.
Or, maybe these? ???.....Rev 2:24 But to the rest of you in Thyatira, who do not hold this teaching, who have not learned what some call the deep things of Satan, to you I say, I do not lay on you any other burden. Rev 2:25 Only hold fast what you have until I come.
Rev 2:26 The one who conquers and who keeps my works until the end, to him I will give authority over the nations,
In case it was not understood, these are taken from the seven churches where Jesus was walking in their midst. He gave correction and praise, both. And some received both praise and correction, at the same time.
Notice Jesus has some good things to say about some of the people in some of these churches. How is this possible? Even in these churches where satans throne is. He clearly said some had the "right stuff" to rule with him. Some had the right doctrines, the right heart, the right teachings. Is being physically present in a Church going to negate my heart, my love, my obedience, my holding on to Him? Is the physical building that strong? I say that only rhetorically. I know you know the answer. You know the building, the physical is not the Spiritual.
I am only speaking like this cause of what I took as your implication, in that highlited statement. You do not understand how I can out of Love do what I do, and give forbearance to my wife, or others, and still remain out of babylon. Fine. But I do. And I am at peace that Jesus will judge all motives and hearts someday. Including mine :-[ And He will decide who was actually in Babylon and who wasn't. Actually, to the point, He will judge our works. And whether our works were motivated by love, and done in love, and put others before ourselves.
I do not have any quarrel with your understanding of how we are to OBEY Jesus. I so agree with that. I just do not think you understand/see that love is higher than all doctrine in the SAME manner as I do. So we have different viewpoints. I myself, would rather be totally obedient to Him in love and love all others as He does, than have all the correct doctrinal understanding in the world. And this is from one who painfully wrestled for 17 years, because of my love for my fellow man, to wrest myself from the doctrine of eternal torment, because it was too horrible for me to hold, even though I was raised and believed fully in the strictest fundamentalist baptist church doctrine out there, for YEARS, from the tender age of 12. And this was even before I read any of Ray Smiths wonderful writings. I am grateful to Ray for filling in many of the gaps I would never been able to. But even with all that, I still would rather have love for Christ, shed abroad in my heart, motivating me to pure obedience, to loving righteousness and hating wickedness, dying to myself, than have all the correct understandings that I now have (except that I could not EVER believe in eternal punishment, for that belief was destroying me) and not have this love and obey just because it was a rule. I think true spirituality is measured in the depth of your dying to self and the amount of how much you obey Christ and do His works, out of Love.
--- End quote ---
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