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Ray's response about Enoch

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Revilonivek:
 I am sure this is age old question for some of you on the forum,  so maybe you will have an answer already for this and help me.  This caught my eye and wanted to seek some understanding and clear this up.  My question is about Enoch.  I found this email between Israel and Ray concerning Elijah and Enoch. I can't help but notice  Ray's explanation regarding Enoch.  Let me explain why below.

Ray = Green
Israel= Red
Denise= Black

Jesus said that no man ascended to heaven except for Him, right.  The question I got is what happened to Enoch in Genesis 5:24 and Elijah.  It didn't say they died. So where did they go.  Did they just become angels or something.  Your help with this question, and all of the help you've given in building the kingdom of God is deeply appreciated.  You've laid down the bricks of truth like a expert brick layer.  I'm sure your house will be shown to be made of gold, silver, and jewels to the glory of the Father and our Lord Jesus.
 
With the Love of the Father,
Israel

 
Dear Israel:

I get asked this question month in and month out, year after year.  You say that "It [the Bible] didn't say they died."

Ah, but it does:

Enoch and Elijah were sinners along with ALL humanity (Rom. 3:23), and the wages of sin is DEATH [death to Enoch & Elijah] (Rom. 6:23).

"Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so DEATH passed upon ALL men [this includes Enoch and Elijah]" (Rom. 5:12).

"And as it is appointed unto men once to die [this includes Enoch & Elijah, but after this the judgment" (Heb. 9:27)

Contrary to Christian fantasy, Elijah did not ascend to the throne room of God Almighty, but rather ascended up into the SKY [heaven].  God simply transported him from one location to another.  

Years later, Elijah wrote a letter

"And there came a writing to him from Elijah the prophet, saying, Thus saith the LORD God of David thy father..." (II Chron. 21:12) "By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated [translated means to transport--as in from one location to another] him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God" Heb. 11:5).

Then in Heb. 11:13 we read this:

"These all died ['all' who? all those mentioned in this chapter of Hebrew, which included Enoch (Ver. 5)] in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth."

But what about Elijah. His name does not appear in Hebrews as one who "died in faith," does it?  True, his name is not there, but HE IS THERE.  Elijah was a prophet, and the prophets are included in this chapter of "all these DIED"

"...and of the PROPHETS prophets: Who through faith subdued kingdoms..." (Heb. 11:32-33).

Hope this helps your understanding.

God be with you,

Ray[/font]

scripture says all taste death, however but this scripture says Enoch has not.(yet), said Enoch was special.

Here's what Ray says regarding hebrew 11:5

"By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated [translated means to transport--as in from one location to another] him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God" Heb. 11:5).

But the Scripture says

Genesis 5:24 And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him.

Hebrews 11:5

5 By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found , because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony , that he pleased God.

Red = Metatithemi
Blue = Metathesis
Orange = Thanatos

I looked up esword to see what translated (red)means,Metatithemi it means transport, transfer, exchange, change sides, change, turn, carry over, pervert, etc. pervert means to turn the other way.

Translation is a different greek word Metathesis   means disestablishment, change, removal, transferral etc.

Metathesis is highlighted blue,  found three times  in NT.

Hebrews 7:12; Hebrews 11:5; Hebrews 12:27

Hebrews 7:12
12 For the priesthood being changed , there is made of necessity a change also of the law.

Hebrews 11:5
5 By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found , because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony , that he pleased God.

Hebrews 12:27
27 And this word, Yet once more, signifieth the removing of those things that are shaken , as of things that are made , that those things which cannot be shaken may remain .

and the same word, for Metatithemi is found in an earlier verse.. in Hebrew 7:12 for changed. You can check it yourself in esword.

Hebrews 7:12
12 For the priesthood being changed , there is made of necessity a change also of the law.

Here's another-the word "turning" is the same word for Metatithemi

Jude 1:4 For there are certain men crept in unawares , who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.

In Gal 1:6 the word, "removed" is the same word for Metattithemi, obviously in this scripture, it means to change sides.

Gal 1:6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:
I looked up what death means in this scripture, word for death in this scripture is Thanatos. that means DEATH. plainly as stated.

What does this mean... Scripture says Enoch was translated so he will not see death....

So even if Ray means it means transport, but it doesnt' change the meaning of the scripture.


Even if the meaning for translation is different among people. so lets look at it this way..

Enoch was taken, transported, perverted, changed, removed, carried over, so he will not see death(thanatos).... and before his transportion, change, he had his testimony that he has pleased God.

Even if Ray suggest Enoch was transported, but where to ? and scripture says he was transported or changed, for one reason, to avoid death.

Ray is suggesting that  Enoch is dead in a grave somewhere?

see where I'm coming from?

It doesn't make sense...

please  help clear this up.

Thanks so much.

G. Driggs:
Hi Denise,

Here is a thread from about a year ago with a lot of good info from Ray and forum members about Enoch, death and Heaven.

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,11290.0.html

Peace,

G.Driggs

Dave in Tenn:
Genesis 5:24 does not say that Enoch did not die.  

Some other translations:

Gen 5:24  He spent his life in fellowship with God, and then he disappeared, because God took him away.

Enoch walked with God; then he was gone because God took him.

And Enoch walked with God. Then he was not, for God took him.

Does Scripture say that Enoch was 'special' in that he did not die?  Or does it say that God took him away?  

The writer of Genesis is not writing from an omniscient POV.  He was either unable (I believe) or unwilling to say where Enoch had been removed.  We don't have to know where God took Enoch.  It doesn't even have to be a "miraculous" occurence.  God is working in ALL things.

Last thing.  It's written that both Jesus and Paul were at various times "removed", in a manner of speaking, from death.  Didn't they try to stone Christ at one point in John 10?  The scripture says Joh 10:39  Therefore they sought again to take him: but he escaped out of their hand,
Joh 10:40  And went away again beyond Jordan into the place where John at first baptized; and there he abode.  Such events are not uncommon in Scripture.  Lots of people 'escaped' death--temporarily.  Enoch was one of them.  Removed to a place the writer either did not know or would not tell, and not heard from again.  

It's odd that in that chapter Jesus tells the Pharisees that the Scripture cannot be broken.  One scripture seems to have been interpreted by some Theologians as meaning Enoch never died.  Other scripture says that all men (all these) die.  Is Enoch part of "all men"?  Can the scripture be broken?  What other possibilities exist?  He ascended into heaven?  No man has ascended into Heaven, said Christ.  He's still alive somewhere on earth?  Why is it so hard to believe a man died?  

That's about the best I can do.  Actually, I've given qute a bit of thought both to Ray's teaching and the controversy over Enoch.  It's been very helpful in many ways.    

Kat:

Hi Denise,

I look at this verse quite simply.

Heb 11:5  By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death (at that time); and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.

I think what we have in this verse is a stumbling block to the truth. Which is necessary so that the whole world is deceived, for those that want to say that people have went to and are in heaven. But Jesus gave us the absolute statement.

John 3:13  And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but He that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

dave:
I struggled with this for sometime until I read Rays work. Ive debated it and became very upset with folks who want to "figger" things with the natural mind. I am with Kat and the Word or the Word and Kat,
Jesus said, John 3:13  And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but He that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.
And that is where one should begin and build on that. Just as 1Co 15:22  for even as in Adam all die, so also in the Christ all shall be made alive,
These are for me the foundation.

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