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What exactly is heaven?
mharrell08:
--- Quote from: believerchrist100 on May 15, 2011, 09:56:46 AM ---I read what you wrote, but how exactly did Ray change his thinking regarding this verse from before? I don't quite get that part. Basically, what I am asking is what exactly does he think now that he didn't before?
--- End quote ---
"Seeing that Jesus said while He was on this earth, that He was also at the same time, IN HEAVEN"
The above is a quote from Ray. This is the excerpt that Antaiwan (Akira329) posted and is from from an older study where Ray references John 3:13:
John 3:13 No one has ascended to heaven but He who came down from heaven, that is, the Son of Man who is in heaven
The section in bold ('who is in heaven') we have come to understand is not in any of the oldest manuscripts, so it is considered spurious. As Ray spoke of in his latest bible study, Jesus states He ascended up to heaven, not that He was dwelling in both at once.
Hope this helps,
Marques
believerchrist100:
--- Quote from: mharrell08 on May 15, 2011, 10:08:08 AM ---
--- Quote from: believerchrist100 on May 15, 2011, 09:56:46 AM ---I read what you wrote, but how exactly did Ray change his thinking regarding this verse from before? I don't quite get that part. Basically, what I am asking is what exactly does he think now that he didn't before?
--- End quote ---
"Seeing that Jesus said while He was on this earth, that He was also at the same time, IN HEAVEN"
The above is a quote from Ray. This is the excerpt that Antaiwan (Akira329) posted and is from from an older study where Ray references John 3:13:
John 3:13 No one has ascended to heaven but He who came down from heaven, that is, the Son of Man who is in heaven
The section in bold ('who is in heaven') we have come to understand is not in any of the oldest manuscripts, so it is considered spurious. As Ray spoke of in his latest bible study, Jesus states He ascended up to heaven, not that He was dwelling in both at once.
Hope this helps,
Marques
--- End quote ---
Thanks Marques! It certainly does!
JohnMichael:
--- Quote ---The best metaphor I can think of is from the movie The Matrix. When the character Neo was 'resurrected', he could see what the Matrix was really made of, computer coding. I think dwelling in heaven/being a spiritual being is like living in that computer code that makes up the physical world we see. Kind of like being in the back stage of a play. You know all the inner workings of the universe but are also able to present oneself onto the 'main stage', which is our current physical reality. Just a thought....
-Marques
--- End quote ---
I just wanted to add to what Marques was saying here. Another metaphor I use is that of the parallel universe. Heaven is right here where we are - we just aren't spiritual enough to see it. We're still tied down by this earthly flesh. It's the same as God is right here - we just can't see Him because our focus is still broken. :)
Kat:
Hi Grace,
I too have had difficulty relating to the spiritual realm. We have come to understand things in this life that are clearly visible in the world around us. But there is a parallel, hidden world/realm within it and not the spiritual realm. It's a realm so tiny that it cannot be seen with the naked eye at all. That realm is the microscopic world of organisms like germs, bacteria and viruses, that until the microscope was invented was unseen and virtually unknown. Organisms live in and on our bodies as well as in every environment on earth, it is not even known how many different kinds there are. This existence is outside the human domain, a realm of microscopic organisms that inhabit a miniature world.
Now I can comprehend that microscopic realm, so I can also think of the spiritual world/realm in similar ways and this helps me understand what the spiritual realm is. We know that the spiritual/heavenly realm is different than the physical world, it is invisible to our perception, but yet very real.
1Co 15:40 There are heavenly bodies and earthly bodies, but the glory of the heavenly is of one kind, and the glory of the earthly is of another.
Though the heavenly realm is different and invisible we are now beginning to look into the spiritual realm by 'seeing' the light/glory of Jesus Christ, by learning the truth - being made into His image.
2Co 4:6 For God, who said, "Let light shine out of darkness," has shone in our hearts to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.
2Co 3:18 Now we all, with uncovered face, mirroring the Lord's glory, are being transformed into the same image, from glory to glory, even as from the Lord, the spirit."(CLV)
So we are in the process of being transformed, now in our mind by learning this truth and at His return our bodies will become glorious as His is.
Rom 8:16-17 The Spirit himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God, and if children, then heirs--heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, provided we suffer with Him in order that we may also be glorified with Him.
Rom 8:30 And those whom He predestined He also called, and those whom He called He also justified, and those whom He justified He also glorified.
Php 3:20-21 But our citizenship is in heaven, and from it we await a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ, who will transform our lowly body to be like His glorious body, by the power that enables Him even to subject all things to Himself.
Right now we are getting a taste/earnest/guarantee of the kingdom by the renewing of our mind or as "the kingdom of God is within you" (Luke 17:21).
Eph 4:22-24 to put off your old self, which belongs to your former manner of life and is corrupt through deceitful desires, and to be renewed in the spirit of your minds, and to put on the new self, created after the likeness of God in true righteousness and holiness.
We will only receive the "inheritance that is imperishable, undefiled, and unfading, kept in heaven for you," (1Pe 1:4) if we are in the first resurrection and then this fleshly body will be changed to join with Christ as a glorious heavenly being.
1Cor 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God;
v. 51 Behold, I speak a mystery to you; we shall not all fall asleep, but we shall all be changed;
v. 52 in a moment, in a glance of an eye, at the last trumpet. For a trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall all be changed.
v. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
v. 54 But when this corruptible shall put on incorruption, and when this mortal shall put on immortality, then will take place the word that is written, "Death is swallowed up in victory.
v. 55 O death, where is your sting? O grave, where is your victory?"
Well that took a bit more than I thought, but I hope something in it may help.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
dave:
--- Quote from: JohnMichael on May 15, 2011, 10:36:34 AM ---
--- Quote ---The best metaphor I can think of is from the movie The Matrix. When the character Neo was 'resurrected', he could see what the Matrix was really made of, computer coding. I think dwelling in heaven/being a spiritual being is like living in that computer code that makes up the physical world we see. Kind of like being in the back stage of a play. You know all the inner workings of the universe but are also able to present oneself onto the 'main stage', which is our current physical reality. Just a thought....
-Marques
--- End quote ---
I just wanted to add to what Marques was saying here. Another metaphor I use is that of the parallel universe. Heaven is right here where we are - we just aren't spiritual enough to see it. We're still tied down by this earthly flesh. It's the same as God is right here - we just can't see Him because our focus is still broken. :)
--- End quote ---
:)
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