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What exactly is heaven?
daywalker:
--- Quote from: mharrell08 on May 15, 2011, 07:11:13 AM ---
--- Quote from: Akira329 on May 15, 2011, 02:21:31 AM ---Here are a few quotes from Ray:
"Seeing that Jesus said while He was on this earth, that He was also at the same time, IN HEAVEN, ought to dispel and fanciful idea that the Heaven of God's Throne is in outer space on some huge galactic rock."
I believe this is the scripture Ray is referring too:
Joh 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.
--- End quote ---
I think Ray may have changed his thinking in regards to this verse:
Excerpt from March 2011 Bible Study 'Are you Afraid of God?' (http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,12896.msg113153.html#msg113153):
COULD JESUS BE IN HEAVEN BEFORE HIS RESURRECTION?
So Jesus Christ as a little boy didn’t go to heaven… is there any way we can find out was He ever in heaven? Is there a Scripture anywhere that says… there’s nothing in the Bible that says between, let’s say, age of 12 and 30 before His ministry actually started, that He went to heaven sometime or that He took a Sabbatical. But do we have a Scripture that says that He did go to heaven? [Comment: we have one that says He came from heaven.] Yeah there are several, I came down from heaven. Do we have one that says He went to heaven? [Comment: Don’t John 3:13 say that?] [Comment: After His death.] After His death He went to heaven, yes.
John 6:38 For I came down from heaven…
Who said John 3:13? Does that say He went to heaven? [Comment: He was the only one that went to Heaven that came down from heaven.] Okay I have it right here.
John 3:12 If I have told you earthly things, and you believe not, how shall you believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?
v. 13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but He that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.
Well “which is in heaven” Tischendorf says that is not in any original manuscripts. Scratch which is in heaven, it should end with Son of man, period.
But we always look at that Scripture to prove that nobody went to heaven. They say, ‘you die and go to heaven.’ Christ said nobody went to heaven. ‘Yeah, Abraham was in heaven.’ No he wasn’t, Christ said no man has ascended into heaven.
This one people read right over it, but this one also says, “He that came down from heaven.” He that came down from heaven, what? He’s the same One that went up. Let’s read it.
John 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, BUT HE (what?)… that came down from heaven,
He that came down He ascended up to heaven. He was not dead yet, this was BEFORE the resurrection! This was in His ministry. So here is a Scripture that says , He went to heaven before He died or His resurrection. He came down from heaven and He said the same one that came down, that’s the One that ascended up! Most people read over that, but it is there, it does say it.
I think it's hard for any of us to describe something that none of us have experienced. Even Paul experienced a little and he could not fully describe it.
The best metaphor I can think of is from the movie The Matrix. When the character Neo was 'resurrected', he could see what the Matrix was really made of, computer coding. I think dwelling in heaven/being a spiritual being is like living in that computer code that makes up the physical world we see. Kind of like being in the back stage of a play. You know all the inner workings of the universe but are also able to present oneself onto the 'main stage', which is our current physical reality. Just a thought....
Marques
--- End quote ---
I was just about to point out the spurious "which is in heaven" passage but then saw you already did... You're awesome Marques! 8)
daywalker:
--- Quote from: Grace on May 15, 2011, 07:15:15 PM ---Thank you Kat! At least I know I'm not the only one. I feel as though I am a part of this microscopic world you are talking about here....so small, almost non existent, when I look at the description of heaven. My finite mind can't even comprehend what I may be looking at here.
De 10:14 Behold, the heaven and the heaven of heavens is the LORD’S thy God, the earth also, with all that therein is.
1Ki 8:27 But will God indeed dwell on the earth? behold, the heaven and heaven of heavens cannot contain thee; how much less this house that I have builded?
How man has exalted himself, eh? To think he is so intelligent when he is so miniscule in comparison. Indeed, how could we even think of building a house with man's hands!
Thanks again Kat!
Grace
--- End quote ---
Hey Grace,
You're definitely "not the only one". I doubt there is--or has ever been--a person walking this earth (save Jesus) that has complete (or even 50%) understanding of what exactly is "heaven". We know that the word "heaven" comes from the same Hebrew/Greek words that also mean "the sky". Perhaps that's an important key to unlocking the mystery?
Daywalker 8)
Stacey:
Hi Grace, this is a great subject, thanks for starting this thread.
I have nothing to offer to help you nail it down but like you I find it interesting to think on what exactly is heaven. Some thought provoking answers have come up but none that really puts the question to rest. I think that is a good thing and the way it's supposed to be.
IF heaven is a state of mind and not a geological location that's fine by me and I can't wait to get my new state of mind as the one I have now freezes up often and needs updates all the time. Maybe the new one will be perfect. I think it will be if scripture proves out to be true in the resurrection.
Thinking about heaven, after the resurrection, in our new state of mind, lets not forget the other part too. We are gonna be somewhere and be doing some things at least some of the time at a geographical location.
So, I think, lol, that even tho we may be like Jesus, (only seen when He wants to be but always here in the spiritual realm) we will also be at the new geological location, the new earth. It might be the same old ball, just refurbished but that's just my thinking on it and it's definitely clouded with Babylonian influences.
Keeping in mind that John was in the Spirit when he wrote the following, it's hard to tell what is what and especially since we believe that this is a revelation of Jesus and not John and the words of Jesus are spirit, but here is my reason for some of the thinking above.
(KJV) Rev. 21:1 And I saw a new heaven (maybe our new, bigger, better state of mind?)and a new earth:(maybe a new or refurbished geological location?) for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
Starting to freeze up again, running short on RAM, got to shut down some programs to free up processing power.
Kat:
Hi Stacy and Grace,
Stacy what you were saying is my way of thinking Too. I believe that verse you brought out does happen like you were saying.
Rev. 21:1 And I saw a new heaven (maybe our new, bigger, better state of mind?)and a new earth:(maybe a new or refurbished geological location?) for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
And Christ told us that we should pray for that.
Matt 6:10 Your kingdom come, Your will be done, on earth as it is in Heaven.
So God's kingdom/heaven will be set up on earth, by the perfect rule of Christ, that will bring about a greatly changed, "new" earth. Now for those in the first resurrection that would, of course also, also mean a great change in them... they would become "like" Christ!
1John 3:2 Beloved, now we are children of God, and it has not yet been revealed what we shall be. But we know that when He shall be revealed, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is.
When we have put off this carnal flesh we will no longer have that as a hindrance. That carnal body or mind will be no longer as we will be joined with Christ and most importantly we will be "like" Christ!
John 10:30 I and the Father are one!
Luke 10:22 All things are delivered to Me by My Father; and no one knows who the Son is except the Father, and who the Father is except the Son, and the one to whom the Son will reveal Him.
What is it to be "one" with the Father? What is it to "know" the Father? Well isn't that what heaven would have to be?! That those resurrected or changed at the first resurrection will receive the mind of God and be made perfect like He is? We will be "like" Jesus and He "always" said and does the will of the Father, ALWAYS.
John 8:29 And He who sent Me is with Me. The Father has not left Me alone, for I always do those things which please Him.
John 5:19 Then Jesus answered and said to them, Truly, truly, I say to you, The Son can do nothing of Himself but what He sees the Father do. For whatever things He does, these also the Son does likewise.
v. 20 For the Father loves the Son and shows Him all the things that He Himself does. And He will show Him greater works than these, so that you may marvel.
John 12:49 For I have not spoken of Myself, but the Father who sent Me gave Me a command, what I should say, and what I should speak.
v. 50 And I know that His command is life everlasting. Therefore whatever I speak, even as the Father said to Me, so I speak.
So yes Grace heaven would be when the Elect are made perfect and can serve God perfectly. They will reign and rule with Christ over all those on earth who are yet to receive salvation, in perfect Harmony with God's will, never making a mistake!! That's what heaven must be to me and then this verse will be fully realized in us.
Luke 10:27 And answering, he said, You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your strength, and with all your mind, and your neighbor as yourself.
v. 28 And He said to him, You have answered right; do this and you shall live.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
mharrell08:
--- Quote from: Kat on May 17, 2011, 09:42:13 AM ---Hi Stacy and Grace,
Stacy what you were saying is my way of thinking Too. I believe that verse you brought out does happen like you were saying.
Rev. 21:1 And I saw a new heaven (maybe our new, bigger, better state of mind?)
--- End quote ---
--- Quote from: Kat on May 17, 2011, 09:42:13 AM ---Well isn't that what heaven would have to be?!
--- End quote ---
Maybe not exactly as you all have explained. This verse came to mind while reading you all's responses:
Job 1:6 Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan also came among them.
Seeing that God dwells in heaven [Ps 123:1], this passage must have taken place in heaven. But to dwell in heaven does not automatically equate to being perfect in spiritual character, seeing that Satan is present as well.
Marques
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