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Samson:

--- Quote from: HopeinChrist480 on May 29, 2011, 03:44:18 AM ---Luke 12:47-48 (Concordant Literal)

47 "Now that slave who knows the will of his lord and does not make ready, nor yet does aught with a view to his will, shall have many lashes.
48 Now he who does not know, yet does what deserves blows, shall have few lashes. Now to everyone to whom much was given, from him much will be sought, and to whom they committed much, more excessively will they be requesting of him.

These verses are one of many reasons why I do not believe that the never-ending torture doctrine is true. Few lashes, many lashes, NOT END-LESS LASHES. It's the will of God that man need stay away from sin. The verses don't indicate varying degrees of sin but punishment. It's not a sin to have no knowledge of His will, however, humanity has a fallen-nature and in knowing this we may also know that all have sinned anyway, with the exception of Christ. People may be ignorant of the nature of sin but this doesn't take away from the fact that sin is sin. All have sinned and all sin is deserving of judgement. Would God put the ones who have ignorance of His will through judgement now or in the lake of fire? I think that God puts the poor and poverished people of countries through judgement now ( I don't have any Scriptural proof of this at the moment.) as they have never even heard the name of Jesus Christ. How then could they know the will of the Lord?

Romans 3:23 (Concordant Literal)

23 for all sinned and are wanting of the glory of God.





--- End quote ---


HopeInChrist,

Not to grasp at Straws, but the phrase that you used in your above Post: humanity has a fallen-nature Is technically not accurate. Why ! Because for Humanity(Mankind) to have a "Fallen Nature" implies that they(Mankind) would have had to fall from something. In other words, it implies that their was originally something better and it Fell and became something worse. Humanity was created with a Heart that's exceedingly weak, automatically prone to Sin. Adam and Eve were incapable of Not Sinning, they were Created to be sinning machines. Christendom incorrectly uses the term: Fallen Nature, to imply that Mankind was created Morally & Spiritually Perfect and could have resisted Sinning, but they chose to Sin because of their "Free Will,"but in reality they  couldn't resist sinning under the circumstances that they were given. Some quotes of Ray's Below in Blue.



And so it was GOD, and none other than GOD, Who intended from the beginning that Satan and man SIN! That does not make God a sinner, for a sin is a "mistake," a "missing of the mark," a "falling short of the glory of God," and God has NEVER MADE A MISTAKE OR FALLEN SHORT OF TOTAL PERFECTION! God knew what He was doing and how things would turn out BEFORE He created ANYTHING! "Declaring the end from the beginning..." (Isa. 46:10). Satan and man are "accountable" for their sins, because they sinned willingly from their heart, but God takes "responsibility" for their sins, and therefore had already provided them a Saviour BEFORE the foundation of the world:

"For the creature [and/or creation itself] was MADE subject to VANITY NOT WILLINGLY, but by reason of Him [that’s God] Who HATH SUBJECTED the same in hope. Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the BONDAGE OF CORRUPTION into the glorious liberty of the children of God. For we know that the WHOLE CREATION groans and travails IN PAIN until NOW" (Rom. 8:20-22)!

The force of these verses in Rom. 8:20-22 is inescapable. It was God HIMSELF Who subjected the whole creation to vanity, and He didn’t ask anyone’s permission before He did it. And it is only God Himself Who will deliver the whole creation from the bondage of corruption, pain, and suffering. Make no mistake about it: God is the Creator of evil, and He takes full responsibility for the deliverance from the consequences of all the evils that have caused the creation to "groan and travail in PAIN until NOW" as Paul describes. God takes responsibility for the temporary failures of creation so that He can take all the credit and glory for its successes.

It was not possible for Satan NOT TO SIN -- he was created for the express purpose of being God’s Adversary, and so, of course, he was a sinner "FROM THE BEGINNING"!

It was not possible for Adam and Eve NOT TO SIN -- they were created for the express purpose of being molded into the "image of God," and so of course, they had to eat of the forbidden tree of the knowledge of good and evil or they would have NEVER reached this first spiritual step in becoming LIKE GOD (in His IMAGE), a step of paramount DIVINE REQUISITE:

    "And the LORD God said, Behold [consider, to perceive, to know, to understand], the man is BECOME AS ONE OF US [Hebrew for ‘God’ is elohiym which is the plural of elowahh, hence ‘us’], TO KNOW GOOD AND EVIL..." (Gen. 3:22).

Knowing "good and evil" is one of the most essential requisites in being formed in the image of God. To truly "know" both good and evil they HAD to partake of its source, which was the "TREE of the knowledge of good and evil," which then DEMANDED that they SIN in order to obtain this "knowledge." NO OTHER TREE IN THE GARDEN POSSESSED THIS NEEDED KNOWLEDGE!

And so it was GOD, and none other than GOD, Who intended from the beginning that Satan and man SIN! That does not make God a sinner, for a sin is a "mistake," a "missing of the mark," a "falling short of the glory of God," and God has NEVER MADE A MISTAKE OR FALLEN SHORT OF TOTAL PERFECTION! God knew what He was doing and how things would turn out BEFORE He created ANYTHING! "Declaring the end from the beginning..." (Isa. 46:10). Satan and man are "accountable" for their sins, because they sinned willingly from their heart, but God takes "responsibility" for their sins, and therefore had already provided them a Saviour BEFORE the foundation of the world:

    "But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: Who verily was FOREORDAINED BEFORE THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD, but was manifested in these last times for you" (I Pet. 1:19-20).

    "And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb [Christ] slain from the FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD" (Rev. 13:8).

God provided the circumstances so that Mankind was incapable of avoiding Sin, Read below !

Is anyone so naive and blind as to believe that God had prepared a Lamb, a Sacrifice, His SON, to be slain for the sins of the world at a time when theologians would have us believe God didn’t even KNOW there was shortly coming such a thing as SIN? God knew; God is smart! It was God Who created the tree of the knowledge of good and evil It was God Who placed it right in the middle of the garden to catch Eve’s eye. It was God Who made the tree particularly attractive and desirable. It was God who placed in the humans the desires and passions that would CAUSE them to partake of the forbidden fruit. It was God who placed Satan the serpent in the garden to tempt Eve and fill her head with the glories of enlightenment. It was God Who had ALREADY made preparation for their salvation through the slain Lamb of God.

Only ignorant and foolish theologians would ever charge God of being ignorant of the conduct and behavior of His own creation. It was not the temptation or deception entering INTO Eve that caused her to sin and bring separation from her Creator and God. It was what was already in her that caused her to sin. Proof:

    "For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies" (Mat. 15:19).

    Notice it: "And when the woman saw [in her heart] that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eye [in her heart], and a tree to be desired [in her heart] to make one wise [an idol of the heart], she took [’For out of the heart proceed ... thefts...’] of the fruit thereof, and did eat" (Gen. 3:6).

Did you notice that last phrase "...and did eat"? It was not the "eating" of the fruit that made her a sinner -- she had ALREADY sinned by looking, lusting, and fantasizing about her potential wisdom. It was AFTER she sinned that she "did eat."

THE WORST SIN THAT WAS EVER COMMITTED & WE DID IT.

Sorry, but John Hagee’s "Romans only" theory has just bit the dust. So again: Who crucified our Lord and Saviour? And who is it that are to be forgiven because they know not what they do? "YOU ALL," "ALL THE PEOPLE OF ISRAEL," "THE HEATHEN," "THE PEOPLE," "THE KINGS OF THE EARTH," "THE RULERS," and "HEROD, PONTIUS PILATE, WITH THE GENTILES!!! Do you still think your name is left out of this list somehow?

The whole world is accountable for crucifying their Saviour Jesus Christ. But as it was done in "ignorance" (for they know not what they do), the whole world will be forgiven. So what do these things have to do with the lake of fire? Everything! I am trying to show you the mind of God. This is the way God thinks, and feels, and forgives, and LOVES! Since you haven’t learned these things in Sunday School, or Wednesday night Bible Study, or Sunday sermons, or even theological seminary, I am showing you them now. Weigh God’s Words very carefully.

The worst sin ever committed by the worst sinners in the history of the universe, was the cruel beating and crucifixion of Jesus Christ -- the Perfect Man and Son of God! Does anyone really believe that Ted Bundy’s crimes were worse than Crucifying the Son of God? Did the men immediately responsible (ultimately I’ve shown that we ALL were responsible) for His crucifixion show any remorse or repentance except Judas? Yet, Jesus Christ asked God to "forgive them" at the very time that they showed no remorse whatsoever.

Will the Father HEAR these words and ANSWER these words of Christ’s prayer? Are these just the sentimental words of Jesus that will not be heard or answered by a HARSH God in Heaven? Just Whose "words" are these, anyway? Where did these words of Jesus "forgive them" really come from?

Hope this helps to give us a better perspective about sinning, Samson.

HopeinChrist480:

--- Quote from: Samson on May 29, 2011, 06:41:20 AM ---
--- Quote from: HopeinChrist480 on May 29, 2011, 03:44:18 AM ---Luke 12:47-48 (Concordant Literal)

47 "Now that slave who knows the will of his lord and does not make ready, nor yet does aught with a view to his will, shall have many lashes.
48 Now he who does not know, yet does what deserves blows, shall have few lashes. Now to everyone to whom much was given, from him much will be sought, and to whom they committed much, more excessively will they be requesting of him.

These verses are one of many reasons why I do not believe that the never-ending torture doctrine is true. Few lashes, many lashes, NOT END-LESS LASHES. It's the will of God that man need stay away from sin. The verses don't indicate varying degrees of sin but punishment. It's not a sin to have no knowledge of His will, however, humanity has a fallen-nature and in knowing this we may also know that all have sinned anyway, with the exception of Christ. People may be ignorant of the nature of sin but this doesn't take away from the fact that sin is sin. All have sinned and all sin is deserving of judgement. Would God put the ones who have ignorance of His will through judgement now or in the lake of fire? I think that God puts the poor and poverished people of countries through judgement now ( I don't have any Scriptural proof of this at the moment.) as they have never even heard the name of Jesus Christ. How then could they know the will of the Lord?

Romans 3:23 (Concordant Literal)

23 for all sinned and are wanting of the glory of God.





--- End quote ---


HopeInChrist,

Not to grasp at Straws, but the phrase that you used in your above Post: humanity has a fallen-nature Is technically not accurate. Why ! Because for Humanity(Mankind) to have a "Fallen Nature" implies that they(Mankind) would have had to fall from something. In other words, it implies that their was originally something better and it Fell and became something worse. Humanity was created with a Heart that's exceedingly weak, automatically prone to Sin. Adam and Eve were incapable of Not Sinning, they were Created to be sinning machines. Christendom incorrectly uses the term: Fallen Nature, to imply that Mankind was created Morally & Spiritually Perfect and could have resisted Sinning, but they chose to Sin because of their "Free Will,"but in reality they  couldn't resist sinning under the circumstances that they were given. Some quotes of Ray's Below in Blue.



And so it was GOD, and none other than GOD, Who intended from the beginning that Satan and man SIN! That does not make God a sinner, for a sin is a "mistake," a "missing of the mark," a "falling short of the glory of God," and God has NEVER MADE A MISTAKE OR FALLEN SHORT OF TOTAL PERFECTION! God knew what He was doing and how things would turn out BEFORE He created ANYTHING! "Declaring the end from the beginning..." (Isa. 46:10). Satan and man are "accountable" for their sins, because they sinned willingly from their heart, but God takes "responsibility" for their sins, and therefore had already provided them a Saviour BEFORE the foundation of the world:

"For the creature [and/or creation itself] was MADE subject to VANITY NOT WILLINGLY, but by reason of Him [that’s God] Who HATH SUBJECTED the same in hope. Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the BONDAGE OF CORRUPTION into the glorious liberty of the children of God. For we know that the WHOLE CREATION groans and travails IN PAIN until NOW" (Rom. 8:20-22)!

The force of these verses in Rom. 8:20-22 is inescapable. It was God HIMSELF Who subjected the whole creation to vanity, and He didn’t ask anyone’s permission before He did it. And it is only God Himself Who will deliver the whole creation from the bondage of corruption, pain, and suffering. Make no mistake about it: God is the Creator of evil, and He takes full responsibility for the deliverance from the consequences of all the evils that have caused the creation to "groan and travail in PAIN until NOW" as Paul describes. God takes responsibility for the temporary failures of creation so that He can take all the credit and glory for its successes.

It was not possible for Satan NOT TO SIN -- he was created for the express purpose of being God’s Adversary, and so, of course, he was a sinner "FROM THE BEGINNING"!

It was not possible for Adam and Eve NOT TO SIN -- they were created for the express purpose of being molded into the "image of God," and so of course, they had to eat of the forbidden tree of the knowledge of good and evil or they would have NEVER reached this first spiritual step in becoming LIKE GOD (in His IMAGE), a step of paramount DIVINE REQUISITE:

    "And the LORD God said, Behold [consider, to perceive, to know, to understand], the man is BECOME AS ONE OF US [Hebrew for ‘God’ is elohiym which is the plural of elowahh, hence ‘us’], TO KNOW GOOD AND EVIL..." (Gen. 3:22).

Knowing "good and evil" is one of the most essential requisites in being formed in the image of God. To truly "know" both good and evil they HAD to partake of its source, which was the "TREE of the knowledge of good and evil," which then DEMANDED that they SIN in order to obtain this "knowledge." NO OTHER TREE IN THE GARDEN POSSESSED THIS NEEDED KNOWLEDGE!

And so it was GOD, and none other than GOD, Who intended from the beginning that Satan and man SIN! That does not make God a sinner, for a sin is a "mistake," a "missing of the mark," a "falling short of the glory of God," and God has NEVER MADE A MISTAKE OR FALLEN SHORT OF TOTAL PERFECTION! God knew what He was doing and how things would turn out BEFORE He created ANYTHING! "Declaring the end from the beginning..." (Isa. 46:10). Satan and man are "accountable" for their sins, because they sinned willingly from their heart, but God takes "responsibility" for their sins, and therefore had already provided them a Saviour BEFORE the foundation of the world:

    "But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: Who verily was FOREORDAINED BEFORE THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD, but was manifested in these last times for you" (I Pet. 1:19-20).

    "And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb [Christ] slain from the FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD" (Rev. 13:8).

God provided the circumstances so that Mankind was incapable of avoiding Sin, Read below !

Is anyone so naive and blind as to believe that God had prepared a Lamb, a Sacrifice, His SON, to be slain for the sins of the world at a time when theologians would have us believe God didn’t even KNOW there was shortly coming such a thing as SIN? God knew; God is smart! It was God Who created the tree of the knowledge of good and evil It was God Who placed it right in the middle of the garden to catch Eve’s eye. It was God Who made the tree particularly attractive and desirable. It was God who placed in the humans the desires and passions that would CAUSE them to partake of the forbidden fruit. It was God who placed Satan the serpent in the garden to tempt Eve and fill her head with the glories of enlightenment. It was God Who had ALREADY made preparation for their salvation through the slain Lamb of God.

Only ignorant and foolish theologians would ever charge God of being ignorant of the conduct and behavior of His own creation. It was not the temptation or deception entering INTO Eve that caused her to sin and bring separation from her Creator and God. It was what was already in her that caused her to sin. Proof:

    "For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies" (Mat. 15:19).

    Notice it: "And when the woman saw [in her heart] that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eye [in her heart], and a tree to be desired [in her heart] to make one wise [an idol of the heart], she took [’For out of the heart proceed ... thefts...’] of the fruit thereof, and did eat" (Gen. 3:6).

Did you notice that last phrase "...and did eat"? It was not the "eating" of the fruit that made her a sinner -- she had ALREADY sinned by looking, lusting, and fantasizing about her potential wisdom. It was AFTER she sinned that she "did eat."

THE WORST SIN THAT WAS EVER COMMITTED & WE DID IT.

Sorry, but John Hagee’s "Romans only" theory has just bit the dust. So again: Who crucified our Lord and Saviour? And who is it that are to be forgiven because they know not what they do? "YOU ALL," "ALL THE PEOPLE OF ISRAEL," "THE HEATHEN," "THE PEOPLE," "THE KINGS OF THE EARTH," "THE RULERS," and "HEROD, PONTIUS PILATE, WITH THE GENTILES!!! Do you still think your name is left out of this list somehow?

The whole world is accountable for crucifying their Saviour Jesus Christ. But as it was done in "ignorance" (for they know not what they do), the whole world will be forgiven. So what do these things have to do with the lake of fire? Everything! I am trying to show you the mind of God. This is the way God thinks, and feels, and forgives, and LOVES! Since you haven’t learned these things in Sunday School, or Wednesday night Bible Study, or Sunday sermons, or even theological seminary, I am showing you them now. Weigh God’s Words very carefully.

The worst sin ever committed by the worst sinners in the history of the universe, was the cruel beating and crucifixion of Jesus Christ -- the Perfect Man and Son of God! Does anyone really believe that Ted Bundy’s crimes were worse than Crucifying the Son of God? Did the men immediately responsible (ultimately I’ve shown that we ALL were responsible) for His crucifixion show any remorse or repentance except Judas? Yet, Jesus Christ asked God to "forgive them" at the very time that they showed no remorse whatsoever.

Will the Father HEAR these words and ANSWER these words of Christ’s prayer? Are these just the sentimental words of Jesus that will not be heard or answered by a HARSH God in Heaven? Just Whose "words" are these, anyway? Where did these words of Jesus "forgive them" really come from?

Hope this helps to give us a better perspective about sinning, Samson.




--- End quote ---

Thanks, Samson. I remember reading this study by Mr. Smith, before. The 'fallen-nature' doctrine of devils is something that I went back to without realizing. You will find that I may in fact do this from time to time as the effects of heresy that I've heard most of my life haven't fully left as of yet. Most of the time, all I need is a reminder to get back-on-track. Yes, God created us as sinners. One circumstance that I recall when reading it before was that my eyes were opened to the Truth that God created us this way to bring us back up again. Here's Romans 8:18-23 in Concordant Literal.

Romans 8:18-23 (Concordant Literal)

18 For I am reckoning that the sufferings of the current era do not deserve the glory about to be revealed for us.
19 For the premonition of the creation is awaiting the unveiling of the sons of God.
20 For to vanity was the creation subjected, not voluntarily, but because of Him Who subjects it, in expectation
21 that the creation itself, also, shall be freed from the slavery of corruption into the glorious freedom of the children of God.
22 For we are aware that the entire creation is groaning and travailing together until now.
23 Yet not only so, but we ourselves also, who have the firstfruit of the spirit, we ourselves also, are groaning in ourselves, awaiting the sonship, the deliverance of our body.

Thanks, again!

 :D

Kat:

Hi HopeinChrist,


--- Quote ---All have sinned and all sin is deserving of judgement. Would God put the ones who have ignorance of His will through judgement now or in the lake of fire? I think that God puts the poor and poverished people of countries through judgement now ( I don't have any Scriptural proof of this at the moment.) as they have never even heard the name of Jesus Christ. How then could they know the will of the Lord?
--- End quote ---

You say that you "think that God puts the poor and poverished people of countries through judgement now." Is that because you think that they are going through enough suffering now? Judgement in the lake of fire is not just recieving punishment. It's main purpose is to teach righteousness.
 
Isa 26:9  With my soul have I desired thee in the night; yea, with my spirit within me will I seek thee early: for when thy judgments are in the earth, the inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness.

Yes there will be those who will find correction for all their sinnful ways very tormenting, "many stripes." But I also think that there will be those eager to learn the truth and only need light correction, "few stripes." I think of John the Baptist and the phophets of the OT raised in the second resurrection, I would imagine that they will require some correction so as to overcome their carnal fleah, but maybe only a little.

But at this time judgement has begun on a few that God has chosen to prepare ahead of the rest, the Elect.

1Peter 4:17  For it is time for judgment to begin at the household of God; and if it begins with us, what will be the outcome for those who do not obey the gospel of God?

1Co 11:31  But if we judged ourselves truly, we would not be judged.
v. 32  But when we are judged by the Lord, we are disciplined so that we may not be condemned along with the world.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

daywalker:

--- Quote from: HopeinChrist480 on May 29, 2011, 07:12:36 AM ---You will find that I may in fact do this from time to time as the effects of heresy that I've heard most of my life haven't fully left as of yet. Most of the time, all I need is a reminder to get back-on-track.

--- End quote ---

Well, you're definitely not alone here! We are all emptying out our closet daily.  :D ;D

judith collier:
Hi all.
Just came back from Nev. after a stay with my sister and brother-in-law. She mentioned her husband was considering joining a church. He has never attended anything Christian what-so-ever. He observed many good works by a church group.
So, like an idiot i talked to him. This man is 64 yrs. old and a lawyer so I never stood a chance to begin with, that's how bright I am. Dear God i mentioned the word "sin" and he about came unglued. but, thanks to training here and the holy Spirit I quickly remembered I cannot "save" anybody and I quickly reversed my tactics.
So, thanks to this thread I do not feel so bad because i said, "well, let's call it "missing the mark". I felt like I was a coward but better to let God have a go with him than me. I let the whole subject go, but i will pray for him to find the "Truth" which is Christ!
love, judy

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