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Roman 5:12
Kat:
Hi Micah7:9,
--- Quote ---Man/woman/Adam in Gen.3 "disobeyed" what he was charged not to do in Gen. 2:17 and that when he did he would begin dying, not physically but as every person Ive read or listened to calls "spiritual death," yet I have yet to find anywhere in the Bible where "spiritual death" is located and mentioned as spiritual death; I understand what it is, but well Ive been here before so Ill leave that.
--- End quote ---
This part about "spiritual death," I think this is the premise of the church that man is a spiritual being to start with and falls from grace when they sin. Here is their teaching of the fall of man starting with Adam in a nutshell.
The Fall of Man
An expression probably borrowed from the Apocryphal Book of Wisdom, to express the fact of the revolt of our first parents from God, and the consequent sin and misery in which they and all their posterity were involved.
There is a spiritual death in trespasses and sins, i.e., the death of the soul under the power of sin (Rom_8:6; Eph_2:1, Eph_2:3; Col_2:13).
(Easton's Bible Dictionary)
Man is not a spiritual being from his beginning and revolts, but a carnal fleshly being right from the start. The only way the soul will die is if the person dies, then their spirit (breath of life) returns to God and the body deteriorates back into the earth, which combined makes the soul.
Rom 8:6 For to be carnally minded is death...
Eph 2:1 And He has made you alive, who were once dead in trespasses and sins...
Col 2:13 And you, being dead in your sins...
These Scriptures all state what our condition is from birth, we are carnal, yes spiritual dead and blind to the truth. Until God draws us to Him and gives us the Holy Spirit, we will remain carnal/flesh/spiritually dead to the day that we physically die. That is how it is for the 'many' in the world, all are carnal "sold under sin" right from the day we are born.
Rom 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am carnal, sold under sin.
Rom 7:15 For that which I do, I know not. For what I desire, that I do not do; but what I hate, that I do.
Rom 7:23 but I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind (Paul's converted mind), and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin being in my members.
Rom 7:24 O wretched man that I am! Who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
Yes who shall deliver any of us from this body of death? We all know the answer to this.
Rom 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord!
Jesus Christ indwelling is what gives us spiritual LIFE, it only is given to the 'few' for now the rest 'many' will not be given this life in Jesus Christ until they are resurrected back to physical life in the next age.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
dave:
Amen Kat.
daywalker:
--- Quote from: Kat on June 15, 2011, 10:16:31 AM ---
Hi Micah7:9,
--- Quote ---Man/woman/Adam in Gen.3 "disobeyed" what he was charged not to do in Gen. 2:17 and that when he did he would begin dying, not physically but as every person Ive read or listened to calls "spiritual death," yet I have yet to find anywhere in the Bible where "spiritual death" is located and mentioned as spiritual death; I understand what it is, but well Ive been here before so Ill leave that.
--- End quote ---
This part about "spiritual death," I think this is the premise of the church that man is a spiritual being to start with and falls from grace when they sin. Here is their teaching of the fall of man starting with Adam in a nutshell.
The Fall of Man
An expression probably borrowed from the Apocryphal Book of Wisdom, to express the fact of the revolt of our first parents from God, and the consequent sin and misery in which they and all their posterity were involved.
There is a spiritual death in trespasses and sins, i.e., the death of the soul under the power of sin (Rom_8:6; Eph_2:1, Eph_2:3; Col_2:13).
(Easton's Bible Dictionary)
Man is not a spiritual being from his beginning and revolt, but a carnal fleshly being. The only way the soul will die is if the person dies, then their human spirit returns to God and the body deteriorates back into the earth.
Rom 8:6 For to be carnally minded is death...
Eph 2:1 And He has made you alive, who were once dead in trespasses and sins...
Col 2:13 And you, being dead in your sins...
These Scriptures all state what our condition is from birth, we are carnal, yes spiritual dead and blind to the truth. Until God draws us to Him and gives us the Holy Spirit, we will remain carnal/flesh/spiritually dead to the day that we physically die. That is how it is for the 'many' in the world, all are carnal "sold under sin" right from the day we are born.
Rom 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am carnal, sold under sin.
Rom 7:15 For that which I do, I know not. For what I desire, that I do not do; but what I hate, that I do.
Rom 7:23 but I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind (Paul's converted mind), and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin being in my members.
Rom 7:24 O wretched man that I am! Who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
Yes who shall deliver any of us from this body of death? We all know the answer to this.
Rom 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord!
Jesus Christ indwelling is what gives us spiritual LIFE, it only is given to the 'few' for now the rest 'many' will not be given this life in Jesus Christ until they are resurrected back to physical life in the next age.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
--- End quote ---
--- Quote from: micah7:9 on June 15, 2011, 10:43:01 AM ---
Amen Kat.
--- End quote ---
Yes, Amen Kat!
I just wanted to add a few more verses. It is common (thanks once again to the Church) for people to mistake "aionios life" as being a synonym for "immortality", and therefore something that can only be received in the next life. However, God's Word gives us the definition of "aionios life" and it also assures us that we can receive it now, in this life, as well as the next one:
John 17:3 And this IS life aionios: that they might know you, the one true God, and Him whom You did send, Jesus Christ.
1 John 5:20 And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know Him that is true, and we are in Him that is true, even in His Son Jesus Christ. This IS the true God, and aionios-life.
1 John 5:11-12 And this IS the testimony: God has given us aionios-life, and this (aionios) life is in his Son. He who has the Son has (aionios) life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have (aionios) life.
And having this "aionios life" (i.e. knowing the One True God, and Jesus Christ, His Son) within us is what causes us to overcome evil and live godly:
Titus 2:11-12 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present age
Contrast that statement with this one:
1 Timothy 5:6 The widow who lives for pleasure is dead although she is still alive.
Those of us with our spiritual thinking caps on understand this is speaking of being spiritually dead, and we also understand that this verse is not limited to actual "widows" but to ALL who "live for pleasure". This is what it means to have NO "aionios life" within us.
Furthermore, through the Apostle John's testimony we can understand what Christ meant when He prophesied of the day when He will say to the many who "call Him Lord", "Depart from Me... I never KNEW you!" He is telling them they have NO "aionios life" IN them:
1 John 3:14-17 We know that we have passed from death to life, because we love our brothers. Anyone who does not love remains in death. Anyone who hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that NO murderer has aionios life IN HIM. This is how we know what love is: Jesus Christ laid down his life for us. And we ought to lay down our lives for our brothers. If anyone has material possessions and sees his brother in need but has no pity on him, how can the love of God be IN him?
"Aionios Life" means to KNOW God and His Son. Anyone who does not possess "aionios life" IN them, does not KNOW God or His Son. And knowing God (i.e. having "aionios life" in us) also manifests the Love of God in us. No wonder Jesus said He is "the Life" and there is no other way but THROUGH Him, and no wonder Paul said that "aionios life" was a gift of God only received through Christ (Romans 6:23). How can one have "aionios life" and NOT KNOW CHRIST if knowing Him is the very definition of "life aionios"?
**Sorry, Kat, guess that was a little more than a few verses.. I gotta little carried away... :D ;D
Daywalker 8)
dave:
I wished I had not put this in the post, " yet I have yet to find anywhere in the Bible where "spiritual death" is located and mentioned as spiritual death; I understand what it is, but well Ive been here before so Ill leave that." It has nothing to do with my query. In fact I will remove it.
mharrell08:
--- Quote from: micah7:9 on June 15, 2011, 10:10:50 AM ---I am sure it is, but my question would be, if it so obvious, why didn't Paul call it that?
--- End quote ---
He does, just further along in the passage. I'll quote starting from verse 12:
Rom 5:12-19 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned— (For until the law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those who had not sinned according to the likeness of the transgression of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come. But the free gift is not like the offense. For if by the one man’s offense many died, much more the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abounded to many. And the gift is not like that which came through the one who sinned. For the judgment which came from one offense resulted in condemnation, but the free gift which came from many offenses resulted in justification.
For if by the one man’s offense death reigned through the one, much more those who receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.) Therefore, as through one man’s offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man’s righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life. For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so also by one Man’s obedience many will be made righteous.
Paul refers to Adam's actions as 'transgression', 'offense', 'one who sinned', & 'disobedience'.
Also, can you explain your point in a simple manner so I can understand? I'm just a little confused on what you are trying to say.
Thanks,
Marques
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