> General Discussions
Will We Ever 'See' the Father?
Dave in Tenn:
I just want to raise a few points, then I'll shut up. I don't claim to have a depth of understanding or 'secret' information that nobody else has. I just want to 'testify'.
As I said earlier, the Trinity paper is not just to 'refute' Trinitarianism. There are truths about Father and Son in there that go far beyond that.
We've also been given a deeper and higher understanding of creation and of the role of the Son as Creator.
There are many other things in the other papers that Glorify the Son.
I don't mean to pound on anybody--as I said, I don't have the answers to perplexing Theological questions. But in my time on the forum, I've seen any number of posts that sound like either 1. Some left-over 'theo-illogical' assumptions about the Greatness of the Son or the relative significance of His creation (as if it were no more than creating an angel or a zebra). Or 2. some lessening of His stature as if one is in a hurry to 'meet' Jesus just so he/she can get access to the Father--like making friends with Chelsea Clinton just to meet Bill. Is that the way things are described? I don't think so.
Anyways, what Ray has promised in this paper is that many of us will never again look on the SON the same way. My reading of B-T and the opening of Scripture it has brought about has been preparing me for that. So I'll reiterate--maybe it's a good idea to refresh some understanding different from the theologies in the Trinity Paper, the Nashville '08 (and subsequent) materials, and other places too numerous to mention (and cumbersome to post links to) with a thought past the immediate 'exposing those who contradict' and towards the hearing of sound doctrine.
Sorry to be so preachy. I'm in this with all of you.
Shutting up now.
John from Kentucky:
Jesus said:
"I and the Father are one." John 10:30
"...He who has seen me has seen the Father..." John 14:9
When you are in a quiet place by yourself, ask God what these verses mean.
Deborah-Leigh:
Love, in all fullness, is all that needs to be. ;D
mavis92379:
I think the answer to this is Yes. However there are a few concepts that Im not sure about. We know that God will be "all in all" but does that mean that each will apprehend the same ? Its kinda hard to argue agaisnt all in all but ......
Ray teaches that just because we shall " be like him " does not mean we shall be EXACTLY the same as him. I think that the glory of Christ will always be greater than anyones and I also feel that one star will always differ from another star in glory - So it is in the resurrection......
Will some see and apprehend Christ and His Father more than others after God is " all in all " ??
Im not really sure I fully understand this concept of " all in all " yet ! I should actually say I dont have a clue as to what this is implying. Does it mean that that ALL will see ALL of God ? Im not sure !
Kat:
Hi Mavis,
--- Quote ---Im not really sure I fully understand this concept of " all in all " yet ! I should actually say I dont have a clue as to what this is implying. Does it mean that that ALL will see ALL of God ? Im not sure !
--- End quote ---
I will just tell you how I see it. The elect will fully receive a new life in the Spirit at the first resurrection, now we just have the begettal.
Rom 8:11 But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give LIFE to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.
1Co 15:44 It is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
I believe when we receive this LIFE at the first resurrection is when we will fully be born into the kingdom and at that time we become all in God and perfectly One with God as Jesus is One with the Father.
John 17:20 And I do not pray for these alone, but for those also who shall believe on Me through their word,
v. 21 that they all may be one, as You, Father, are in Me, and I in You, that they also may be one in Us, so that the world may believe that You have sent Me.
So we are beginning to have this Oneness that Jesus has with the Father as we are now begotten with the Holy Spirit, but I believe when we are born into the kingdom, that it means we will be perfected and we will not sin anymore, we will be perfectly in tune with the Father's will, just like Jesus Christ is.
John 5:30 I can do nothing of My own self. As I hear, I judge, and My judgment is just, because I do not seek My own will, but the will of the Father who has sent Me.
So then I think those born into the kingdom will be all/wholly in God.
--- Quote ---We know that God will be "all in all" but does that mean that each will apprehend the same ? Its kinda hard to argue against all in all but ......
Ray teaches that just because we shall " be like him " does not mean we shall be EXACTLY the same as him. I think that the glory of Christ will always be greater than anyones and I also feel that one star will always differ from another star in glory - So it is in the resurrection......
--- End quote ---
Yes I do believe that Christ will always have the identity of the first born and One we will look up to. I don't think we will loose our identities either, in spirit we will all be together in perfect harmony and Oneness. But as Ray was talking about in his latest paper, we would all still have our own individuality, as it seems that is the purpose of this life, He gives us this great variety of life experiences, to create in us uniqueness and individual character traits for a purpose. Just think about it, God does not make anything in vain, with such a variety of personalities and abilities God is creating an army to serve every need that might arise in the judgment of the rest of mankind in the LOF.
When all things in heaven and earth are perfected in judgment and then they too will be brought into this Oneness with God. Then when every last one has reached this Onesness with God, He will be all/wholly in all.
1Cor 15:28 But when all things are subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also will be subject to Him who has subjected all things to Him, so that God may be all things in all.
--- Quote ---Will some see and apprehend Christ and His Father more than others after God is " all in all " ??
--- End quote ---
I think we have just 'began' to apprehend who and what God is when He gave us the Holy Spirit indwelling while we are still in this flesh, but we are greatly limited in what we can know. So then at resurrection into the kingdom we will of course be brought to another much higher level of understanding.
But consider this. God 'the Father' is an eternal being, what does eternal mean? I don't think we can know that, but we do understand He always existed, but do we think this eternal being was always in the form of a man?
At some point God birthed wisdom and has perfect knowledge and the concept that there is right and wrong and that He would be perfectly righteous. Then at some point He determined to make a creation and He used this wisdom He had so painfully developed to decide on this incredible intricate and wonderful form of a man to make beings into in this creation.
This God was a Being that had always lived, we know from Jesus Christ somewhat of who this God is, He does tell us He exists. But Jesus tells us we can not see Him or hear His voice, because He is invisible, that's what this eternal Being is invisible Spirit. I don't think we can comprehend that.
So this God decided to have a creation and He thought it all the way through first and He knew there would need to be some One that these beings, that would be created, could relate to and look too and worship, but He was invisible, and He knew it would literally be impossible for a physical created being to relate to Him as He was. So why didn't He just make Himself visible, so we could see Him? He DID and that is where Jesus Christ comes in, at least He is a perfect representation of the Father.
Col 1:15 who is the image of the invisible God, the First-born of all creation.
He is what the eternal Being designed and brought forth in an image of a man, He is "the first-born" in the image of a man, so when all the beings to come were created they would have this God to relate to.
Well I kind of got carried away there, but I hope something I said might help.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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