Will We Ever 'See' the Father?

[thetruth]

Imanuel God with us?

[Kat]

Hi thetruth,

Mat 1:23  Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.

Yes indeed Christ is God and as for the topic of this thread 'Wiil we ever 'see' the Father,' Christ answered that for us.

John 14:8  Philip said to Him, Lord, show us the Father, and it is enough for us.
v. 9  Jesus said to him, Have I been with you such a long time and yet you have not known Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father. And how do you say, Show us the Father?
v. 10  Do you not believe that I am in the Father and the Father in Me? The Words that I speak to you I do not speak of Myself, but the Father who dwells in Me, He does the works.
v. 11  Believe Me that I am in the Father and the Father in Me, or else believe Me for the very works themselves.
John 14:6  Jesus said to him, I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life; no one comes to the Father but by Me.
v. 7  If you had known Me, you would have known My Father also. And from now on you know Him and have seen Him.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[John from Kentucky]

Hi thetruth,

Mat 1:23  Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.

Yes indeed Christ is God and as for the topic of this thread 'Wiil we ever 'see' the Father,' Christ answered that for us.

John 14:8  Philip said to Him, Lord, show us the Father, and it is enough for us.
v. 9  Jesus said to him, Have I been with you such a long time and yet you have not known Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father. And how do you say, Show us the Father?
v. 10  Do you not believe that I am in the Father and the Father in Me? The Words that I speak to you I do not speak of Myself, but the Father who dwells in Me, He does the works.
v. 11  Believe Me that I am in the Father and the Father in Me, or else believe Me for the very works themselves.
John 14:6  Jesus said to him, I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life; no one comes to the Father but by Me.
v. 7  If you had known Me, you would have known My Father also. And from now on you know Him and have seen Him.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

Let me see if I am getting this right.

If you see Jesus, then you see the Father.

The Words Jesus spoke were not Jesus' Words but the Father's.

The Works Jesus did were actually done by the Father.

One could conclude that They are One and the Same.  That there are not two Gods but only One God, which is what the OT says.

The two witnesses, the Old Testament scriptures and the New Testament scriptures say the same thing.

It looks like God can chew gum and skip rope at the same time.  He could run the universe (and beyond) while at the same time being on the earth as Jesus.

It appears Jesus the Word is how the Father represents Himself to His creation.  The Word comes from the Father and it is by the Word that everything is created and maintained and saved.

I think all of us are going to have to retake God 101 again.  We missed out a lot the first time around.

[Kat]

Well yes that is what I was saying, it seem so simple when you put it like that.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[DougE6]

I will put no horse in this race, I am happy just to know Jesus and His Father, the details will be made clear to all in due time. I just have one  observation..this seems familiar like to the Oneness Pentecostals, the Jesus Only sect of Christendom.  maybe some things are just too difficult to know. Like how electrons can be particles and waves both at one time... I do think the writer of Ecclesiastes had it just right when he said....

The thing that hath been, it is that which shall be; and that which is done is that which shall be done: and there is no new thing under the sun.
Ecc 1:10  Is there any thing whereof it may be said, See, this is new? it hath been already of old time, which was before us.

[Dave in Tenn]

The thing that hath been, it is that which shall be; and that which is done is that which shall be done: and there is no new thing under the sun.
Ecc 1:10  Is there any thing whereof it may be said, See, this is new? it hath been already of old time, which was before us.

Could be that statement applies very well to John 14:8  "Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us." and some of us these days.  I always feel better in good company.

[Deborah-Leigh]

Right on Dave!

Rev 3:12  Him who overcomes I will make him a pillar in the temple of My God, and he will go out no more. And I will write upon him the name of My God, and the name of the city of My God, the NEW JERUSALEM, which comes down out of Heaven from My God, AND MY NEW NAME...

Rev 21:5  And He sitting on the throne said, BEHOLD, I MAKE ALL THINGS NEW.    And He said to me, Write, for these words are true and faithful.

What's anyone going to believe...the old or the new~ 

Arc

[lilitalienboi16]

What just drives me nuts about the Father BEING Jesus, completely, is that Jesus said His Father is greater than Him, we also know Jesus has a beginning yet the Father does not. Jesus has got to be a seperate entity or being, maybe thats it.. maybe it isn't contradictive, like light being both a wave and a particle at the same time. Maybe Jesus is His own being but the Father is Jesus and the Father is also His own being. Two are one.

Maybe? DJklafjsd89fya89sdfuy My head hurts. lol.

[Kat]

Hi Alex,

We know that the being that became known as Jesus Christ is God and did come out from the Father, because He said so.

John 16:28  I came forth from the Father, and have come into the world. Again I leave the world and go to the Father.

Jesus stated "I and the Father are one!" (John 10:30) In perfect unity of spirit and mind, an exact reflection of the Father.

1Ti 2:5  For God is one, and there is one Mediator of God and of men, the Man Christ Jesus,

Jesus Christ came out of the Father to be His perfect Representative, as a image we can see, because God the Father is "invisible."

Col 1:15  who is the image of the invisible God...

So when we see Jesus, we see the Father, as He was brought into being to exactly represent the Father, in every way an extension of Him. Though there was a point in time when Jesus came into being, whereas the Father has always existed.

I do not claim to have this all figured out, but at this point this is what I am thinking.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[indianabob]

Great study folks, lots to consider and maybe even too much for me.

Two small points: John mentioned that Genesis says God made man in the image and likeness of God.\

I have read somewhere that the better translation would be that God is "making" man in His image.
If true that would indicate that we will be in His image when God is finished working with us and if so that would leave it open as to what God's image means as far as shape etc. It could mean loving character rather than having legs for mobility on the physical earth.

Second: someone wrote that familiarity could breed contempt if we were too close to the Father and the example of the men around the President was given. I don't believe that idea would apply to our view of or our relationship with God. God is so marvelous and having no beginning in time and so forth that we who had a beginning and are aware of it, would always be in awe of God no matter how close we became or how long we were in His presence.

Just my thoughts, Bob

I have always perceived the spiritual plane of existence to have form, colors, sounds etc.  Nothing in our physical existence is better or exceeds spiritual existence.

The earthly things in the Tabernacle in the Wilderness were patterned after spiritual or heavenly forms.

The Cherubim in Ezechiel 1 have a form.  Mankind in the earlier civilizations made images of the Cherubim similar to the descriptions in Ezechiel.

Yahweh allowed Moses to see his back parts and some of His glory, but not His face.  If Yahweh had no form, what was the purpose of letting Moses think He had form?

Jesus was the express image of the Father.  Jesus told one of His apostles that if he had seen Jesus then He had seen the Father.  If you are the image of something, then that something must have some image too.

In Genesis, God made man in the image and likeness of God.  As Ray has pointed out recently, the Hebrew words for image and likeness---mean image and likeness--not something formless.

Finally, when you cut through all the crap the various religions teach, the fundamental truth of the scriptures is that the Father is reproducing Himself after His Own Kind.  What will God's children look like?  Duh!  Maybe like the Father?  This basic form of mankind---a torso, two arms and hands, two legs and feet, a neck, and a head---there is something about this design--this is not the first time it has been to the rodeo--it is patterned from something else---I believe it is patterned after the Father, but this pattern, on the spiritual level, does not limit Him in any way.

And yes, one day, I believe we will see Him as He is.  Where do I get this from?  Here a little, there a little, line upon line---with the Spirit whispering in my ear.

[Deborah-Leigh]

What ever you say ABOUT God, may POINT to God, yet, is not, and can not, BE God.

[Deborah-Leigh]

The scientists religious feeling takes the form of a rapturous amazement at the harmony of natural law which reveals an intelligence of such superiority that in comparison with it all systematic thinking of human beings is an utterly insignificant reflection. This feeling is the guiding principle of my life and work ....Albert Einstein

[mharrell08]

FYI - http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,13773.0.html

More food for thought...

[lilitalienboi16]

FYI - http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,13773.0.html

More food for thought...

Ray says in the email;
"And since the Father is God,when we see the Father in Christ, we see God in Christ, WE SEE GOD.  That may be as close as we ever come to actually seeing God.  I will be covering this in more detail if I ever finish my paper:  "Solving the Enigma fo God."

I hope the "seeing" in rays statement about God is the key word, in other words, seeing God with our PHYSICAL EYES as He is invisible spirit, as ray put it. I don't know how well it sits with me to believe I will never EVER see (whether with physical eyes or spiritual eyes) God, just mirror images of Him, for all eternity...

However ray does add the "close as we EVER" implying from my understanding, that we will never ever, with spiritual eyes, new bodies or physical eyes, see God... arggg

[Kat]

You know Alex, I think God the Father considered this very feeling that you are having about not being able to 'see' Him... that is why He gave us Jesus Christ!

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[Dave in Tenn]

I just want to raise a few points, then I'll shut up.  I don't claim to have a depth of understanding or 'secret' information that nobody else has.  I just want to 'testify'.

As I said earlier, the Trinity paper is not just to 'refute' Trinitarianism.  There are truths about Father and Son in there that go far beyond that.

We've also been given a deeper and higher understanding of creation and of the role of the Son as Creator.

There are many other things in the other papers that Glorify the Son.

I don't mean to pound on anybody--as I said, I don't have the answers to perplexing Theological questions.  But in my time on the forum, I've seen any number of posts that sound like either 1.  Some left-over 'theo-illogical' assumptions about the Greatness of the Son or the relative significance of His creation (as if it were no more than creating an angel or a zebra).  Or 2. some lessening of His stature as if one is in a hurry to 'meet' Jesus just so he/she can get access to the Father--like making friends with Chelsea Clinton just to meet Bill.  Is that the way things are described?  I don't think so.

Anyways, what Ray has promised in this paper is that many of us will never again look on the SON the same way.  My reading of B-T and the opening of Scripture it has brought about has been preparing me for that.  So I'll reiterate--maybe it's a good idea to refresh some understanding different from the theologies in the Trinity Paper, the Nashville '08 (and subsequent) materials, and other places too numerous to mention (and cumbersome to post links to) with a thought past the immediate 'exposing those who contradict' and towards the hearing of sound doctrine.

Sorry to be so preachy.  I'm in this with all of you.

Shutting up now.

[John from Kentucky]

Jesus said:

"I and the Father are one."  John 10:30

"...He who has seen me has seen the Father..."  John 14:9

When you are in a quiet place by yourself, ask God what these verses mean.

[Deborah-Leigh]

Love, in all fullness,  is all that needs to be. 

[mavis92379]

I think the answer to this is Yes. However there are a few concepts that Im not sure about. We know that God will be "all in all" but does that mean that each will apprehend the same ? Its kinda hard to argue agaisnt all in all but ......

Ray teaches that just because we shall " be like him " does not mean we shall be EXACTLY the same as him. I think that the glory of Christ will always be greater than anyones and I also feel that one star will always differ from another star in glory - So it is in the resurrection...... 

Will some see and apprehend Christ and His Father more than others after God is " all in all " ??

Im not really sure I fully understand this concept of " all in all " yet ! I should actually say I dont have a clue as to what this is implying. Does it mean that that ALL will see ALL of God ? Im not sure !

[Kat]

Hi Mavis,

Im not really sure I fully understand this concept of " all in all " yet ! I should actually say I dont have a clue as to what this is implying. Does it mean that that ALL will see ALL of God ? Im not sure !

I will just tell you how I see it. The elect will fully receive a new life in the Spirit at the first resurrection, now we just have the begettal.

Rom 8:11  But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give LIFE to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.

1Co 15:44  It is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

I believe when we receive this LIFE at the first resurrection is when we will fully be born into the kingdom and at that time we become all in God and perfectly One with God as Jesus is One with the Father.

John 17:20  And I do not pray for these alone, but for those also who shall believe on Me through their word,
v. 21  that they all may be one, as You, Father, are in Me, and I in You, that they also may be one in Us, so that the world may believe that You have sent Me.

So we are beginning to have this Oneness that Jesus has with the Father as we are now begotten with the Holy Spirit, but I believe when we are born into the kingdom, that it means we will be perfected and we will not sin anymore, we will be perfectly in tune with the Father's will, just like Jesus Christ is.

John 5:30  I can do nothing of My own self. As I hear, I judge, and My judgment is just, because I do not seek My own will, but the will of the Father who has sent Me.

So then I think those born into the kingdom will be all/wholly in God.

We know that God will be "all in all" but does that mean that each will apprehend the same ? Its kinda hard to argue against all in all but ......

Ray teaches that just because we shall " be like him " does not mean we shall be EXACTLY the same as him. I think that the glory of Christ will always be greater than anyones and I also feel that one star will always differ from another star in glory - So it is in the resurrection...... 

Yes I do believe that Christ will always have the identity of the first born and One we will look up to. I don't think we will loose our identities either, in spirit we will all be together in perfect harmony and Oneness. But as Ray was talking about in his latest paper, we would all still have our own individuality, as it seems that is the purpose of this life, He gives us this great variety of life experiences, to create in us uniqueness and individual character traits for a purpose. Just think about it, God does not make anything in vain, with such a variety of personalities and abilities God is creating an army to serve every need that might arise in the judgment of the rest of mankind in the LOF. 

When all things in heaven and earth are perfected in judgment and then they too will be brought into this Oneness with God. Then when every last one has reached this Onesness with God, He will be all/wholly in all.

1Cor 15:28  But when all things are subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also will be subject to Him who has subjected all things to Him, so that God may be all things in all.

Will some see and apprehend Christ and His Father more than others after God is " all in all " ??

I think we have just 'began' to apprehend who and what God is when He gave us the Holy Spirit indwelling while we are still in this flesh, but we are greatly limited in what we can know. So then at resurrection into the kingdom we will of course be brought to another much higher level of understanding.

But consider this. God 'the Father' is an eternal being, what does eternal mean? I don't think we can know that, but we do understand He always existed, but do we think this eternal being was always in the form of a man?

At some point God birthed wisdom and has perfect knowledge and the concept that there is right and wrong and that He would be perfectly righteous. Then at some point He determined to make a creation and He used this wisdom He had so painfully developed to decide on this incredible intricate and wonderful form of a man to make beings into in this creation.

This God was a Being that had always lived, we know from Jesus Christ somewhat of who this God is, He does tell us He exists. But Jesus tells us we can not see Him or hear His voice, because He is invisible, that's what this eternal Being is invisible Spirit. I don't think we can comprehend that.

So this God decided to have a creation and He thought it all the way through first and He knew there would need to be some One that these beings, that would be created, could relate to and look too and worship, but He was invisible, and He knew it would literally be impossible for a physical created being to relate to Him as He was. So why didn't He just make Himself visible, so we could see Him? He DID and that is where Jesus Christ comes in, at least He is a perfect representation of the Father.

Col 1:15  who is the image of the invisible God, the First-born of all creation.

He is what the eternal Being designed and brought forth in an image of a man, He is "the first-born" in the image of a man, so when all the beings to come were created they would have this God to relate to.

Well I kind of got carried away there, but I hope something I said might help.

mercy, peace and love
Kat