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Adam and Eve
Revilonivek:
I would like answers regarding the Adam and Eve's story. I have questions:
In Genesis, God states he deems everything perfect. How can something fail if they are already perfect? God created a perfect world, He created Adam and Eve and deemed them perfect in every way. How can they sin if they are perfect? How can perfectness fail?
Why expect Adam and Eve to obey well if they do not know the difference between Good and Evil yet?
Eve was not warned by God not to eat the fruit from tree of Good and Evil, only Adam- Why kick her out?why condemn her and the rest of the females to have painful childbirth experiences because she disobeyed? You punish if they know the difference between good and evil, not before. bible states she ate it because she thought it looked good, pleasing to the eye to eat. That's the only reason she ate it. She didn't think it was wrong to eat of it because she doesn't understand right and wrong. she only ate it because it looked good to eat.
It is only then, After they ate the fruit ,they understood the difference between Good and Evil and covered themselves. Satan told the truth about what would have happened if they did. He told them they would think like gods, and know the difference between Good and Evil. God only told Adam that he would die if he ate from the tree of good and evil. Satan told them in depth of what would happen if they did. It's like messing with creatures that know nothing of good and evil. Eve only ate it because it looked good to eat... soo innocent and she gave it to Adam because she wanted to share...
How can something deemed perfect fail if God deemed them perfect in the first place. How can they sin if they have no knowledge of good and evil? why punish them? Can you still sin without knowing the difference between good and evil and be held accountable for it? Unless they already had the understanding beforehand? My question is.. Why condemn them when they did not know the difference between Good and Evil?
It just doesn't make sense.
It's been on my mind and would like answers from the wise ones to put these thoughts to rest.
Many thanks to all who can help me with this.
Denise
mharrell08:
--- Quote from: Revilonivek on July 04, 2011, 02:01:17 PM ---I would like answers regarding the Adam and Eve's story. I have questions:
In Genesis, God states he deems everything perfect. How can something fail if they are already perfect? God created a perfect world, He created Adam and Eve and deemed them perfect in every way. How can they sin if they are perfect? How can perfectness fail?
--- End quote ---
The scriptures never say God created a perfect world. God deemed what He created to be 'good' including Satan. Everything was good for it's intended purpose, not good in and of themselves.
--- Quote from: Revilonivek on July 04, 2011, 02:01:17 PM ---Why expect Adam and Eve to obey well if they do not know the difference between Good and Evil yet?
--- End quote ---
God never expected Adam & Eve to be anything more than what they were: sinners. As Paul said, without the law, there is no transgression. One cannot be found at fault if there is nothing to be in obedience to. No one realizes the degree they need God until they fall hopelessly short of His glory.
--- Quote from: Revilonivek on July 04, 2011, 02:01:17 PM ---Eve was not warned by God not to eat the fruit from tree of Good and Evil, only Adam- Why kick her out?why condemn her and the rest of the females to have painful childbirth experiences because she disobeyed?
--- End quote ---
Eve was not being picked on. She knew very well that she was not to eat of the tree as she told the serpent herself.
Childbirth, while extremely painful, brings a mother closer to her child than anyone can imagine. Something no man will ever understand. I don't think too many women would trade the bond they have with their child for anything in the world.
--- Quote from: Revilonivek on July 04, 2011, 02:01:17 PM --- You punish if they know the difference between good and evil, not before. bible states she ate it because she thought it looked good, pleasing to the eye to eat. That's the only reason she ate it. She didn't think it was wrong to eat of it because she doesn't understand right and wrong. she only ate it because it looked good to eat.
--- End quote ---
She was tempted and ate of the fruit from all the sins of the world described in 1 John 2:16 (lust of the flesh, lust of the eye, pride of life). She knew the commandment from God to not eat of the tree but she was drawn away by her own lusts, as would any other person.
--- Quote from: Revilonivek on July 04, 2011, 02:01:17 PM ---It is only then, After they ate the fruit ,they understood the difference between Good and Evil and covered themselves.
--- End quote ---
They already understood what was good (to not eat of the tree) and what was evil (to eat of the tree). What they began to realize is what it means to give into their flesh. That's why they were ashamed, not from a lack of clothes. They were husband & wife, they had already seen each other's privates.
--- Quote from: Revilonivek on July 04, 2011, 02:01:17 PM ---Satan told the truth about what would have happened if they did. He told them they would think like gods, and know the difference between Good and Evil. God only told Adam that he would die if he ate from the tree of good and evil. Satan told them in depth of what would happen if they did.
--- End quote ---
God told Adam & Eve they would die while Satan said 'you shall NOT surely die'. That's not teaching in depth, that is a bold-face lie Satan told.
They began to realize the shame of who & what they were...God does not feel shame for what He is. So no, that was another lie from Satan when he said Adam & Eve would 'be like God'.
--- Quote from: Revilonivek on July 04, 2011, 02:01:17 PM --- It's like messing with creatures that know nothing of good and evil. Eve only ate it because it looked good to eat... soo innocent and she gave it to Adam because she wanted to share...
--- End quote ---
She was deceived, but still drawn by her own lusts. Accountable but not responsible...and certainly not innocent.
--- Quote from: Revilonivek on July 04, 2011, 02:01:17 PM ---How can something deemed perfect fail if God deemed them perfect in the first place.
--- End quote ---
He never deemed anyone or anything recorded in Genesis as 'perfect'.
--- Quote from: Revilonivek on July 04, 2011, 02:01:17 PM ---How can they sin if they have no knowledge of good and evil? why punish them?
--- End quote ---
Broke the commandment to not eat of the tree as well as drawn by their own lusts. But God didn't create them to punish them, but to teach (chastise). To conform them to His image.
--- Quote from: Revilonivek on July 04, 2011, 02:01:17 PM --- Can you still sin without knowing the difference between good and evil and be held accountable for it?
--- End quote ---
Yes, we are all accountable when we are drawn away by our own lusts/temptations. No one is forced to sin, no matter how much knowledge they have.
--- Quote from: Revilonivek on July 04, 2011, 02:01:17 PM --- Unless they already had the understanding beforehand? My question is.. Why condemn them when they did not know the difference between Good and Evil?
It just doesn't make sense.
--- End quote ---
Again, God didn't create the human race to condemn it, but rather, to save it.
John 3:17 God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.
But God chastises every son (and daughter) that He receives:
Prov 3:11 ...do not despise the chastening of the LORD, Nor detest His correction.
Heb 12:5 ...you have forgotten the exhortation which speaks to you as to sons: “My son, do not despise the chastening of the LORD,Nor be discouraged when you are rebuked by Him"
--- Quote from: Revilonivek on July 04, 2011, 02:01:17 PM ---It's been on my mind and would like answers from the wise ones to put these thoughts to rest.
Many thanks to all who can help me with this.
Denise
--- End quote ---
Read the articles on the site. It's always easy to see when a forum member has not taken the time to read Ray's papers. There are no stupid questions, but there are redundant ones which have been answered through & through in Ray's papers. I'm not saying that to be harsh, just speaking the truth.
If you truly want to stop 'wrestling' with these thoughts and beliefs, read the site and continue to ask God to open your understanding.
Hope this helps,
Marques
Revilonivek:
Help me work through something, if you would.
What exactly does the Tree of Good and Evil do to us? How does it change our nature, before and after you eat the fruit?
According to Genesis, Adam and Eve disobeyed God by "eating from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil" by giving into their lusts. It was THEN that their eyes were open, realized their "nakedness" and was ashamed.
My point I'm trying to ask about is... I am trying to understand the nature of the fruit from the Tree of Good and Evil. It does not make SENSE. If adam and Eve know how to obey, They must know what is right, and what is wrong. Disobeying is a form of evil. They know it was wrong to disobey.. unless they disobeyed without understanding that it was wrong.. Im trying to figure this out... WHat is the nature of the fruit from the tree of good and evil? what does it do to us? what makes it different before u eat, and after you eat..
According to Genesis... before they ate the fruit- They were not ashamed with their "nakedness" but after they ate the fruit, They became aware of what is improper and what's not, and saw nakedness was wrong, and became ashamed.. proceeded to cover themselves. Unless, They use to have a glow that covers their privates and when that glow was gone, they realized they did something wrong and covered themselves..maybe?
Unless, they already knew the difference between Good and Evil before they ate the fruit, it was just a test to see if they can resist the temptation? If that is the story.. why call the tree, knowledge of good an evil? why just call it a tree with delicious fruit that is forbidden by God to eat? Why call it Tree that holds the Knowledge of Good and Evil?
Satan even said the truth. He said the fruit would open our eyes, and think as like gods. Granted, he lied about the dying part, but he gave partial truth though.
Bear with me, more questions..
Was satan already branded a deceiver, at the time, Adam and Eve was in the garden, or was he branded a deceiver only after he seduced Adam and Eve in sinning? Here's another question in the same parameter. Satan was communicating with Eve through a serpent. Don't you think Eve would have found this odd that a snake could communicate, unless all animals in the garden can communicate with you back then? She didn't find that odd at all when they communicated.. Unless he was in the form of a person that was branded a serpent after the fact? You would be freaked out and run to Adam if an animal talks to you. Right?
Thanks for your help.
Denise
daywalker:
Hello Denise,
As Marques has already stated, Ray answers many of these questions in his articles, especially in his Lake of Fire series. In Part 2, he specifically talks about Adam and Eve, and the whole Garden scenario. If I were you, I'd start on part 1 and read through it all. From the "Tree of the knowledge of Good and Evil" to "Adam and Eve" to "nakedness" to "Satan the adversary" and the "existence of Evil"--all these are discussed thoroughly and with many, many scriptures:
http://bible-truths.com/lake1.html
Reading these articles will be one of the best things you've ever done for yourself; I speak from experience. ;)
Peace...Daywalker 8)
--- Quote from: Revilonivek on July 05, 2011, 09:46:11 AM ---Help me work through something, if you would.
What exactly does the Tree of Good and Evil do to us? How does it change our nature, before and after you eat the fruit?
According to Genesis, Adam and Eve disobeyed God by "eating from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil" by giving into their lusts. It was THEN that their eyes were open, realized their "nakedness" and was ashamed.
My point I'm trying to ask about is... I am trying to understand the nature of the fruit from the Tree of Good and Evil. It does not make SENSE. If adam and Eve know how to obey, They must know what is right, and what is wrong. Disobeying is a form of evil. They know it was wrong to disobey.. unless they disobeyed without understanding that it was wrong.. Im trying to figure this out... WHat is the nature of the fruit from the tree of good and evil? what does it do to us? what makes it different before u eat, and after you eat..
According to Genesis... before they ate the fruit- They were not ashamed with their "nakedness" but after they ate the fruit, They became aware of what is improper and what's not, and saw nakedness was wrong, and became ashamed.. proceeded to cover themselves. Unless, They use to have a glow that covers their privates and when that glow was gone, they realized they did something wrong and covered themselves..maybe?
Unless, they already knew the difference between Good and Evil before they ate the fruit, it was just a test to see if they can resist the temptation? If that is the story.. why call the tree, knowledge of good an evil? why just call it a tree with delicious fruit that is forbidden by God to eat? Why call it Tree that holds the Knowledge of Good and Evil?
Satan even said the truth. He said the fruit would open our eyes, and think as like gods. Granted, he lied about the dying part, but he gave partial truth though.
Bear with me, more questions..
Was satan already branded a deceiver, at the time, Adam and Eve was in the garden, or was he branded a deceiver only after he seduced Adam and Eve in sinning? Here's another question in the same parameter. Satan was communicating with Eve through a serpent. Don't you think Eve would have found this odd that a snake could communicate, unless all animals in the garden can communicate with you back then? She didn't find that odd at all when they communicated.. Unless he was in the form of a person that was branded a serpent after the fact? You would be freaked out and run to Adam if an animal talks to you. Right?
Thanks for your help.
Denise
--- End quote ---
Kat:
Hi Denise,
I will explain this the way that I understand it. The story of Adam and Eve is a real literal thing that happened, therefore not a parable. God uses it as a type and shadow to explain about all humanity that follow right in their footsteps.
--- Quote ---What exactly does the Tree of Good and Evil do to us? How does it change our nature, before and after you eat the fruit?
--- End quote ---
I believe this was a literal tree, but it represented something much greater and that is life and how we live it, good and evil. It was a test for them and it shows that as with them no human being can or will obey, but all will follow their own lusts.
Psa 14:3 All have gone aside, together they are filthy; there is none who does good, no, not one.
Rom 3:23 for all have sinned and come short of the glory of God,
All humans are born with a carnal human nature, it's not something that happens at some point, we are born that way.
Rom 8:7 because the carnal mind is enmity against God, for it is not subject to the Law of God, neither indeed can it be.
So we 'eat of the fruit' so to speak, as we live our lives and experience good and evil. God has deemed it necessary for all humanity to experience this physical life to gain and learn from personal experience about good and evil. So for now this age is for this carnal experience that we all are having, it's for a backdrop, a backdrop of darkness. Only a very few are being chosen out and given God's Holy Spirit to have their eyes opened to the truth/light in this age.
--- Quote ---Was Satan already branded a deceiver, at the time, Adam and Eve was in the garden, or was he branded a deceiver only after he seduced Adam and Eve in sinning? Here's another question in the same parameter. Satan was communicating with Eve through a serpent. Don't you think Eve would have found this odd that a snake could communicate, unless all animals in the garden can communicate with you back then?
--- End quote ---
Satan is a spirit and can not be seen, therefore God speaks of him in terms that we can relate to. Here is what Ray says about him.
http://bible-truths.com/lake2.html ----------------
Is this really describing something physical?
[Ray's reply]
Satan is a spirit being, seeing that he has been around for thousands of years. He is called a devil, serpent/snake, dragon, etc. We are not exactly sure what a dragon looks like, but supposedly it is in the reptile family as are snakes.
Nowhere that I can think of, did Satan ever appear visibly to anyone. Therefore his serpent/dragon qualities (or lack thereof) must be spiritual. Satan is a SPIRITUAL SNAKE. He has the secret, stealth qualities of a snake moving unseen in the dark. Although he is "like" [in certain characteristics] a roaring lion, he is not a lion, but "as" a lion he goes about seeking whom he may devour [Gk: 'swallow up' as in 'swallow a camel']. Spiritually devour/swallow.
So, did Eve talk with a literal, physical, snake, face to face, in the garden? I don't think so.
------------------------------------------------------------------
John 8:44 You are of the Devil as father, and the lusts of your father you will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and did not abide in the truth because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks of his own, for he is a liar and the father of it.
Satan from the beginning was created as he is, he did not turn into the devil. So it was not a literal snake, Eve was tempted and drawn away by her own lustful carnal human nature.
I think you are trying to jump way ahead on these things. If you really want to gain a good understanding of these things you need to read all the articles that Ray has written. There are bits and pieces all through them that you will gleem as you go to build your understanding of these things. Getting a condensed answer here will not give you all that we had to read through to come to the understanding that we have. There are no short cuts, the time and effort it takes is just a necessary part of being approved to God.
2Tim 2:15 Study earnestly to present yourself approved to God, a workman that does not need to be ashamed, rightly dividing the Word of Truth.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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