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Paul The 13th Apostle?

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Rene:

--- Quote from: jong on July 12, 2011, 02:18:33 AM ---
The Bible-truths website have increased my knowledge tremendously but a lot of understanding is based on Paul's epistles & teachings. I am very confused, can anybody shed any light,


--- End quote ---


Jon,

I also would like to welcome you to the forum, but I'm confused as to why you are so confused?

The Apostle Paul's inspired writings make up a huge portion of the New Testament, so why would the truths we are learning not be comprised of a large part of his teachings?  Maybe you need to explain more about your religious journey and maybe we will know more about where you are coming from.

We would love to help you clear up your confusion. :)

René

mharrell08:

--- Quote from: jong on July 12, 2011, 02:18:33 AM ---Was Paul an apostle of Christ as he claimed to be in his writings? Even Rev 21:14 says there are only 12!

If not, should Paul's teachings be included in the bible at all? Can he a false apostle mentioned in Rev 2:2
--- End quote ---


That's an assumption Jon. Revelation 21:14 does not say there are only 12 apostles.


Paul referred to himself as the least of all apostles, because of his past actions:

1 Cor 15:9  For I am the least of the apostles, who am not worthy to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God.


But Paul considered all the people he was used to convert to Christ as his sign of apostleship:

1 Cor 9:2  If I am not an apostle to others, yet doubtless I am to you. For you are the seal of my apostleship in the Lord

2 Cor 12:12  Truly the signs of an apostle were accomplished among you with all perseverance, in signs and wonders and mighty deeds


Did not Jesus say you shall 'know them by their fruits'? And that one who is not against us, is for us?

Matt 7:14-15  Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves. You will know them by their fruits...

Luke 9:49-50  John answered and said, Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name; and we forbad him, because he followeth not with us. And Jesus said unto him, Forbid him not: for he that is not against us is for us


Hope this helps,

Marques

Joel:
The definition of the word apostle--One sent on a mission. seems to fit the service that the Lord himself intended for Paul.

Acts 9:15-16
But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel.
For I will shew him how great things he must suffer for my name's sake.

We can read the rest of Acts, and Paul's writings to know that the Lord meant what he said concerning him, and all things came true to the last detail.

Joel

jong:
Hi All,

Thanks for the warm welcome  :)

My own philosophy is to really understand what I believe, and to find out more about what I believe.
The teachings of Ray has so far allowed me to understand deeper the messages of the Good News & the glorious plans God has for each one of us.

Then I chanced upon the possibility of St. Paul being a false prophet and that is why I sought help from the seniors here. Maybe answers to the following questions might help clear up some doubts ;)

1. We are told to test whoever call themselves apostles.

Revelation 2:2 I know thy works, and thy labour, and thy patience, and how thou canst not bear them which are evil: and thou hast tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars:

2. Paul condones/allows the eating foods sacrificed to idols in 1 Corinthians 8. Yet in Revelation, Jesus rebukes churches for eating foods sacrificed to idols.

Revelation 2:14 "But I have a few things against you, because you have there those who hold the doctrine of Balaam, who taught Balak to put a stumbling block before the children of Israel, to eat things sacrificed to idols, and to commit sexual immorality.

Revelation 2:20 "Nevertheless I have a few things against you, because you allow that woman Jezebel, who calls herself a prophetess, to teach and seduce My servants to commit sexual immorality and eat things sacrificed to idols

3. Benjamite wolf prophecy

Genesis 49:1 And Jacob called his sons and said, "Gather together, that I may tell you what shall befall you in the last days:

Genesis 49:27 "Benjamin is a ravenous wolf; In the morning he shall devour the prey, And at night he shall divide the spoil."

Rom 11:1, Phil 3:5 ....Paul is of the tribe of Benjamin. Initially (in the morning), he started out murdering Christians , then later (in the night) dividing the church along Jew-Gentile lines.

Ezekiel 22:25-28 ...The "conspiracy of prophets" who "violates the Law," and who teach the people to "hide their eyes from the Sabbath," and to no longer discern clean food from impure food, etc. These wolves are associated with those who "have false visions" and "divine" lies in the Lord's name.

4. Is Paul, actually Apollonius?

Acts 21:38 "Are you not the Egyptian who some time ago stirred up a rebellion and led the four thousand assassins out into the wilderness?"

Either Paul went by the name of Apollonius or the Roman commander knew about  Apollonius the Egyptian false prophet  and  what  Apollonius looked like. Google and find out the many coincidences between the life & teachings of Apollonius & Paul.

IF (a very big IF) the teachings of Paul were excluded from the New Testament, would we still come to the same conclusions that we have all learnt under Ray?

Thank you all for any further insights,
Jon

G. Driggs:
Seems eating or not eating meat sacrificed to idols is a moot point.

1Co 8:4  In this matter, then, of eating food offered to idols, we know that an idol is nothing (has no real existence) and that there is no God but one. [Deut. 6:4.]

Not sure if Paul was condoning the eating of meat sacrificed to idols, but maybe he was saying it does not matter except to those that might be weak in some way. Didn't Jesus say something similar?

Mar 7:15  There is nothing from without a man, that entering into him can defile him: but the things which come out of him, those are they that defile the man.
Mar 7:16  If any man have ears to hear, let him hear.

Eating or not eating, drinking or not drinking certain things is just another one of them traditions of the Babylonian Church. It wont make or break you. If you eat or dont eat thats fine.

1Co 8:8  Now food [itself] will not cause our acceptance by God nor commend us to Him. Eating [food offered to idols] gives us no advantage; neither do we come short or become any worse if we do not eat [it].

Here some really good info from Ray about the physical traditions of the Church, please read.

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,6310.0.html

HOW THE CHURCH PLAYS ‘RELIGION’

When I was in the Worldwide Church of God every year we celebrated Passover and we partook of ‘real’ unleavened bread and ‘real’ wine… not leavened bread and grape juice. 
Then we also, to out do all the other churches, we would line up all the chairs around the parameter of the hall.  Then we had plastic wash basins and warm water and a towel for every person.  Then one person would wash the person sitting down feet and they would dry off, get up and put their shoes on.  Then the one that had washed their’s would sit down and they would wash their feet.  And they would dry off and put their shoes back on.  We did this once a year. 
Why did we do that?  To fulfill the commandments, so that we could feel righteous and holy and better than others.  Did people do that everyday of their life?  NO.  Why?  Because they didn’t know what it meant.  Well they knew what it meant, but they didn’t think about it everyday.  Because well you only do it once a year, so I’ll think about it when it’s time to do it.

That is NOT what Jesus meant when He said we should wash one another’s feet. 
That is NOT what Jesus meant by partaking of His body and His blood either.  That one day out of the year, we eat a little wafer and drink a little grape juice.  That is not what He meant that is NOT keeping Passover or the Lord’s Supper.
Cutting off the foreskin of a man’s penis is NOT circumcision.  You say, ‘well it represents carnality and so on.’  Well what do women cut off?  Are there no carnal women?  What do they cut off and how do they live by this? 

I made a list of physical rituals that carnal-minded Christians like to do, according to their faith.  Well depending on which religion, but sooner or later everybody does some of this.  The physical letter of the law can, in fact, deceive you. 
Tithing - pseudo tithing
Religious pilgrimages
Circumcision
Holy Day observance
Clean and unclean foods
Prayer cloths
Foot-washing
Fasting
Alter calls
Water baptism
Making vows
Anointing oil
Burning incense
Doing penance
Speaking in gibberish
Lighting candles
Pictures
Icons
Idols
Holy water
Holy smoke
Confession
Last rights
Sign of the cross
Rosary beads
Wearing phylacteries
The Lord’s Supper
Sabbath keeping
New moons
Prayer wheels
Religious junk

TBN every month if you send them money they will send you a piece of religious trinketry.  This month it was a little plastic egg that you can open up the top half of it, like two little doors and there is a little tiny Joseph, Mary and a little baby inside there.  Isn’t that cute, that’s precious.  Every month they’ve been doing this, for some 30+ years, let’s see 30 x 12 that’s close to 400 now.  Can you imagine that somebody has 400 pieces of such religious junk.  Where do they put it all?  If you gave me 400 such pieces of trinketry junk, I mean it will cover the whole floor and all the tables in here.  It’s total nonsense. 
Why do they do that?  Why do they offer you a piece of junk if you send them $50 or $100 or $1000?  Why do they do that?  Because people like religious junk.  It makes them feel godly, religious, holy or something, you see. 
It’s physical, it’s tangible like;
Physical circumcision
Physical baptism
Physical communion
Physical fasting
Physical food and drink laws
Pseudo tithing
Physical prayer
Physical church and worship services
Physical Sabbath keeping
Like ALL physical rituals, it’s a shadow of better things…

Heb 10:1  For the law having a shadow of the good things to come,

They represent something better.  They are almost there to deceive those that are stubborn and will not obey God.  They point to something grand, to those who do understand. 

So then are all these things done away?  Should we cut them out of the Bible and throw them away, as though they were useless?  NO.  No because they serve a purpose. 

But here’s the thing,  we just read where the things of the law are the shadow of better things to come.  Not the actual image itself.  So we are to come out of the shadow!  When you come out of the shadow you will automatically come into the light.  Because if there were no light, there would be no shadow.  I mean you don’t come out of a shadow at midnight, because there is no light to cast a shadow.  When you come out of the shadow, you come into the light.
--------------------

As for Revelation and what Jesus says in it, Ray goes into great detail in many of his papers to show (using Scriptures) them to be parables and not literal.

Oh and welcome to the forum! :)

Peace,

G.Driggs

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