Judgment in the Next Age

[mharrell08]

FYI: http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,13330.msg117338.html#msg117338

In light of this recent email question and reply from Ray, these scriptures came to mind:

1 Cor 2:9-10  But, according as it is written, That which the eye did not perceive, and the ear did not hear, and to which the heart of man did not ascend -- whatever God makes ready for those who are loving Him. Yet to us God reveals them through His spirit, for the spirit is searching all, even the depths of God. [CLV]

Eph 3:20  Now to Him who is able to do exceedingly abundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power that works in us

These two statements from Paul came to mind because they speak of incredible blessings from God for us, believers. Far more than we can even ask or THINK. As in, no matter what we could possibly think of, individually or collectively, God will surpass it in blessing us. WOW!


Then these passages came to mind, scriptures that testify of loving thy neighbor (not just brethren in the faith):

Matt 5:43-44  Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy. But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you...

Mark 12:30-31  thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment. And the second is like, namely this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these.

Rom 13:8  Owe no one anything except to love one another, for he who loves another has fulfilled the law.

Gal 5:14  For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this: "You shall love your neighbor as yourself."

James 2:8  If you really fulfill the royal law according to the Scripture, "You shall love your neighbor as yourself," you do well

Now, neither Jesus or His apostles place a limit on these commandments. They don't state 'love they neighbor for the age' or anything like that. These are continually, ongoing commandments.

Ray has taught from the scriptures that Jesus and His Elect will judge the world in righteousness, not just Jesus (http://bible-truths.com/lake12.html - under header 'God's Ministers are Flames of Fire'). So when the person asks in the email, 'what is God's punishment for sinners?', it is better phrased as 'What is God AND His Elect's punishment for sinners?'

The point I am getting at is this: If we are to love our neighbor AND God has stored for us so great a blessing we cannot even think about it AND Jesus will use US to judge the world, why do we worry about how 'severe' of judgment those in the world will receive?

Do we think Jesus will have us do cruel or malicious acts to those in judgment? That He would have us act in a way that does not show 'love to thy neighbor'? Paul tells us that we will receive a BLESSING (not a curse or difficult chore) from God beyond our comprehension! I would surely think this great blessing would include how we are to judge the world.

Getting saved is the hardest thing in the world for us as human beings. And as we 'love our neighbors' we want them to believe and dwell in Christ...and what did Paul say about God giving us beyond what we can even ask or think?

Eph 3:20  ...Him who is able to do exceedingly abundantly ABOVE all that we ask or think...

God's going to go above and beyond anything we can even hope for, including how we will 'judge the world'. We will continue to 'love our neighbor' and 'love our enemy'...even while we place them through judgment. Love will be the greatest force involved in judging the world...far more than we can even begin to ask or think.


Just a random thought I had,

Marques

[indianabob]

Brother Marques,
Your random thoughts are well stated and helpful.
Thank you for sharing and caring.
Indiana Bob

[Duane]

As usual God, I believe, will provide, thru you, the answers for which I was searching!  My sister is real troubled by the fact that "all will be saved" so is the punishment going to be sufficient punishment to punish the "wicked"??   Why not live wickedly in this life if you are going to obtain salvation "in the end" anyway?!  Isn't that a terrible attitude that certainly DOESN'T encompass "loving your neighbor"?  She doesn't trust God to be JUST in punishng those SHE believes should be harshly punished!  No literal HELL means no ETERNAL punishment that she thinks people deserve!  I can't wait to read Ray's article!  Duane

[swanny21]

Hello everyone, Neil here from Bundaberg in Australia with my first post. Please forgive me for being brief in my responses, I find it very difficult to put my thoughts into words.

In my opinion,  "judgement" = "forgiveness".

Great topic

Neil

[Samson]

Excerpt's From God Judges the World in a Pond. (found below)

THE SAINTS SHALL JUDGE THE WORLD

The called and chosen were born to be Judges:

    "Or are you not aware that the saints [the manifested Sons and Daughters of God] shall JUDGE THE WORLD? And if the world shall be judged by YOU, are you unworthy to judge the smallest matters?" (I Cor. 6:2).

    "And I saw thrones and they sat upon them, and JUDGMENT was given unto them [the saints, the manifested Sons of God]..." (Rev. 20:4).

Every man will be judged and the Saints will do the judging:

    "And the sea gave up the dead which were in it: and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were JUDGED EVERY MAN according to their works" (Rev. 20:13).

JUDGES, LORDS, PRIESTS AND KINGS

The called and chosen were born to be Judges, Lords, Priests and Kings:

    "If we suffer, we shall also REIGN with Him..." (II Tim. 2:12).

    "And has made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall REIGN on the earth" (Rev. 5:10).

We are the church of the Living God, and what is the church in relation to Christ?

    "And has put all things under His feet, and gave Him to be the Head over all things to the church, Which IS HIS BODY, the fullness of Him that fills all in all" (Eph. 1:22-23).

    "For we are members of HIS BODY, OF his flesh, AND OF his bones... This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and THE CHURCH [the heavenly, not the carnal church]" (Eph. 5:30 & 32).

Whatever Christ does, WE DO ALSO, because we ARE HIS BODY! Yes, WE, the manifest Sons and Daughters of God, will JUDGE THE WORLD!

But are the saints ready, equipped, and experienced to actually judge the world by the mere fact that they accept Jesus as the Priest, Lord, King, and Judge of the world? We are part of this world until God takes us out of it. We too have need of a Priest, a Lord, a King, and a Judge.

All too many Christians accept Jesus as their Priest, Lord, King, and Judge in ceremony only. In fact, I doubt that many accept Jesus as their "JUDGE" even in a ceremonial way, let alone by actual experience OF that judgment in their daily lives.

We must first be judged ourselves if we are to became the judges of the great sea of humanity.

No one with a carnal mind ever desires the judgments of God. We aren't told exactly how much threat, entreaty, force or persuasion Jesus used on the disciples to get them to take their boat into the sea, but we know for sure from the word itself, that it took more than a casual suggestion that they go. Likewise, we read that those who must go through the lake of fire, are

    "...CAST into the lake of fire...,"

    "...CAST into the lake of fire..." (Rev. 20:10, 15).

They will not want to go voluntarily. And so it is true that:

    "It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God" (Heb. 10:31)

But it is still far better to be "in the hands of the Living God" than to be anywhere else! Even the of worst of scoundrels who have ever lived will fare far better in the hands of the Living God than anywhere else.

The Church thinks that this verse says, "It is a fearful thing to fall UNDER THE FEET of the Living God" rather than, "It is a fearful think to fall INTO THE HANDS of the Living God."

It sounds to me like His disciples DIDN'T WANT TO GO! Jesus didn't just say: "You go on, fellows, and I'll catch up with you later." No, He COMPELLED them to go! They obviously didn't want to go. The sea was probably ALREADY turbulent and scary, and I am sure they realized the further they went from shore the worse it would be. They were afraid to go, but Jesus "COMPELLED" them to go; they had to go! And so they went.

Do you not see yourself in this scene? Do you not picture yourself being compelled by our Lord to enter the dark and scary trials of this life? Do you not feel TOSSED by the frightening trials and tribulations of this life?Do you not see yourself in this scene? Do you not picture yourself being compelled by our Lord to enter the dark and scary trials of this life? Do you not feel TOSSED by the frightening trials and tribulations of thi

    God tells us WHERE this judgment will take place:

    "...they were judged every man according to their works," and "whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into THE LAKE OF FIRE" (Rev. 20:13 & 15).

Therefore, we, the Saints, the Body of Christ, the consuming fire ministers of God, the saviours of Mt. Zion, the manifested Sons and Daughters of God, along with our Head, Jesus Christ, also ARE THE LAKE OF FIRE!

THERE IS NO LITERAL LAKE, AND THERE IS NO LITERAL FIRE. Jesus Christ and His Body of Saints ARE THE LAKE OF JUDGING, PURIFYING, CONSUMING SPIRITUAL FIRE!!!

The lake of fire is a metaphor written in symbols that stand for what is being symbolized, not the symbols themselves. The lake of fire is composed of Jesus Christ the Judge of the world, Christ's divine spiritual fire and brimstone, and the Sons of God who are the body of Christ who are also FLAMES OF FIRE (Heb. 1:7).

And the whole world will be judged BY US! After death, all the dead will be resurrected, they will all be judged, they will have to pass through the purifying lake of fire, they will have to PASS THROUGH US! WE will be their judge along with our Lord.

    "Know ye not that the SAINTS SHALL JUDGE THE WORLD?"

And so, the GREAT SEA OF HUMANITY will be judged in the safety and security of the LAKE OF SAINTS!


Below are specific points that stood out for the Discussion started By Marques from this Thread & the above excerpt's of Ray.

1) And the whole world will be judged BY US! After death, all the dead will be resurrected, they will all be judged, they will have to pass through the purifying lake of fire, they will have to PASS THROUGH US! WE will be their judge along with our Lord.

2) No one with a carnal mind ever desires the judgments of God. We aren't told exactly how much threat, entreaty, force or persuasion Jesus used on the disciples to get them to take their boat into the sea, but we know for sure from the word itself, that it took more than a casual suggestion that they go. Likewise, we read that those who must go through the lake of fire

3) We have already proved that "the fire shall try every man's work" in I Cor. 3:13 is a spiritual match with Rev. 20:13 & 15 where "they were judged every man according to their works ... in the lake of fire" And in both cases the "fire" is God's SPIRIT. God's spirit burns spiritual character flaws out of the hearts of mankind in a similar way in which literal fire burns up and abolishes wood, straw, and stubble. And since we are the Body of Christ and we too are made "flames of fire," then we also judge the deeds of men's hearts

4) And the whole world will be judged BY US! After death, all the dead will be resurrected, they will all be judged, they will have to pass through the purifying lake of fire, they will have to PASS THROUGH US! WE will be their judge along with our Lord.

5(part A): Quote's from Marques initial Post: Do we think Jesus will have us do cruel or malicious acts to those in judgment? That He would have us act in a way that does not show 'love to thy neighbor'? Paul tells us that we will receive a BLESSING (not a curse or difficult chore) from God beyond our comprehension! I would surely think this great blessing would include how we are to judge the world.
5(part B): God's going to go above and beyond anything we can even hope for, including how we will 'judge the world'. We will continue to 'love our neighbor' and 'love our enemy'...even while we place them through judgment. Love will be the greatest force involved in judging the world...far more than we can even begin to ask or think.

          Very Good Topic Marques, Thanks, Samson.

[indianabob]

Duane,
One thought comes to mind reference your sister and other like her.
If she is not called in this life then she is still living under the written law.
Also are all others who are not called living under the written law.
That is why they should not live wickedly.

We who are called in this life are no longer living under the written law IF
so be that we live according to the spirit of love.
So, I suppose that you could think of your sister's situation as that of suffering under the provisions of the law however it may be applied in her situation.
And also everyone else who is not living according to the spirit of love, BECAUSE they have not yet been called of God to receive a new heart of understanding.

Isn't that why we are admonished to remain in Christ and to not fall away and bring ourselves once again under the written law?

Just thinking out loud. Correction welcome
Bob

As usual God, I believe, will provide, thru you, the answers for which I was searching!  My sister is real troubled by the fact that "all will be saved" so is the punishment going to be sufficient punishment to punish the "wicked"??   Why not live wickedly in this life if you are going to obtain salvation "in the end" anyway?!  Isn't that a terrible attitude that certainly DOESN'T encompass "loving your neighbor"?  She doesn't trust God to be JUST in punishng those SHE believes should be harshly punished!  No literal HELL means no ETERNAL punishment that she thinks people deserve!  I can't wait to read Ray's article!  Duane

[Kat]

I think some people may be confused by a judgment that will be brought about by a 'lake of fire.' All the symbolism make it hard to imagine the literal application.

Rev 20:15  And if anyone was not found having been written in the Book of Life, he was cast into the Lake of Fire.

We know from Ray's teaching that the resurrection of the rest of the dead will be back to a physical life. These people will be resurrected with the same character, the good and bad that they died with, if they were liars, thieves, cheaters or murderers that what they will be raised up as. These physical people will be "cast into the lake of fire," that will be the earth under Christ's rule. This world will be a very different place with Christ ruling it. No longer will people be able to sneak around and do things in secret, the Elect will always know what is going on. People will not be able to lie, the Elect will know if you are lying or cheating or stealing or doing or saying anything wrong.

1Co 3:12  And if anyone builds on this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble ,
v. 13  each one's work shall be revealed. For the Day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try each one's work as to what kind it is.
v. 14  If anyone's work which he built remains, he shall receive a reward.
v. 15  If anyone's work shall be burned up, he shall suffer loss. But he shall be saved, yet so as by fire.

Can you see how it will be a tormenting/fiery experience for a lot of people who were able to get away with their sinful behavior in this life. At that time they will have their every action supervised and "revealed," because the judgment "Day shall declare it," the real intent of the heart will be laid bare/naked. They will not get away with anything or cause any harm, "they shall not hurt nor destroy in all My holy mountain." The meek and humble will live in peace.

Isa 11:4  But with righteousness He shall judge the poor, and shall decide with uprightness for the meek of the earth. And He shall strike the earth with the rod of His mouth, and with the breath of His lips He shall slay the wicked.
v. 5  And righteousness shall be the girdle of His loins, and faithfulness the girdle of His heart.
v. 6  Also the wolf shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the cub lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them.
v. 7  And the cow and the bear shall feed; their young ones shall lie down together; and the lion shall eat straw like the ox.
v. 8  And the suckling child shall play on the hole of the asp, and the weaned child shall put his hand on the adder's den.
v. 9  They shall not hurt nor destroy in all My holy mountain; for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of Jehovah, as the waters cover the sea.

Yes it will be a difficult and even rough on some to keep them from doing evil, if they could. But it will be a world where Christ will enforce His rule and the people will be taught the right way to live.

Isa 26:9  With my soul have I desired thee in the night; yea, with my spirit within me will I seek thee earnestly: for when Thy judgments are in the earth, the inhabitants of the world learn righteousness.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[cjwood]

Hello everyone, Neil here from Bundaberg in Australia with my first post. Please forgive me for being brief in my responses, I find it very difficult to put my thoughts into words.

In my opinion,  "judgement" = "forgiveness".

Great topic

Neil

hi ya neil.  welcome to the forum.  nice to have another aussie in the family. 

claudia

[G. Driggs]

This all sounds like some badly needed "tough love".

Pro 3:11  My son, despise not the chastening of the LORD; neither be weary of his correction:
Pro 3:12  For whom the LORD loveth he correcteth; even as a father the son in whom he delighteth.

Heb 12:5  And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him:
Heb 12:6  For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.

Heb 12:7  As you endure this divine discipline, remember that God is treating you as His own children. Who ever heard of a child who is never disciplined by its father?
Heb 12:8  If God doesn't discipline you as He does all of His children, it means that you are illegitimate and are not really His children at all.

I like the additional information and the inclusion of "all of His children" the Hebrew writer gives in verse 7 and 8. Sad that "the many" make the loving (albeit painful) correction of the Father into something evil.

Good thread and good responses.

G.Driggs

[Deborah-Leigh]

Hello everyone, Neil here from Bundaberg in Australia with my first post. Please forgive me for being brief in my responses, I find it very difficult to put my thoughts into words.

In my opinion,  "judgement" = "forgiveness".

Great topic

Neil

Hi Neil

Welcome to the Forum!

IMO Forgiveness needs mercy! Mercy needs love and God IS Love!

Arc

[onelovedread]

Whew. Why do some people need to make such long postings. Can't the point be made succinctly? We're already impressed by your knowledge. Just think I'll stir things up a bit as my day's boring.

[mharrell08]

Whew. Why do some people need to make such long postings. Can't the point be made succinctly? We're already impressed by your knowledge. Just think I'll stir things up a bit as my day's boring.

No problem John

I think Paul simplifies it well:

1 Tim 1:12-16  I thank Christ Jesus our Lord who has enabled me, because He counted me faithful, putting me into the ministry, although I was formerly a blasphemer, a persecutor, and an insolent man; but I obtained mercy because I did it ignorantly in unbelief. And the grace of our Lord was exceedingly abundant ('Him who is able to do exceedingly abundantly above all that we ask or think' - Eph 3:20), with faith and love which are in Christ Jesus. This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am chief. However, for this reason I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might show all longsuffering, as a pattern to those who are going to believe on Him

The number of people who sin 'ignorantly in unbelief' far outweighs those 'who have trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace' [Heb 10:29].


Thanks,

Marques

[onelovedread]

Hey Marques
I hope you do not think that my comment was directed at you as your responses and postings are constantly on point. I don't consider you to be a person who beats around the bush. That said, I appreciate your postings and your 'tough love' to the forum which is meant to keep things going without 'drama'. However, in my opinion which does not count for much, there are some posters who have to almost write a book to make a simple point. I suspect that all or most of us have bibles so do we need to again produce an entire passage, when a simple citation could work?
I appreciate your last posting in which you made even greater effort to be succinct. I wasn't criticizing you though.
john

[mharrell08]

No worries 

[arion]

However, in my opinion which does not count for much, there are some posters who have to almost write a book to make a simple point. I suspect that all or most of us have bibles so do we need to again produce an entire passage, when a simple citation could work?

Something to keep in mind John is that some of us don't have the verbal tools to be brief, punctual and to the point.  I am one like that in the which sometimes it takes me several paragraphs to collect my thoughts in a way that makes sense.  We all need to give each other the grace and the space to be whom God is crafting us to be.  It's most likely that people are not being 'long winded' in talking down to others or just like to hear ourselves speak but that we lack at times the verbal skills to boil it all down briefly.  We have to bear with them and you with us as we are all in this together.

[Duane]

Some people prefer the "flow of consciousness" technique where they talk and talk or write and write until they finally feel their thought is adequately covered -somewhere-among the words.  Others, me included, would rather keep mulling things thru our minds
until it condenses itself into a succinct written/spoken form.  The "others" sometimes need patience with the other style!

May we all grow together regardless of style.

[onelovedread]

Arion and Duane, point taken and I agree that perhaps I should be more patient and tolerant; and less irascible:)
Hey you guys are my family so I'm allowed to squabble and be petulant, right. No matter what I may say I want everyone on the forum to know I appreciate and respect you all. I feel honored when you guys comment on something I've posted. Just letting you know.

[indianabob]

Thanks for that Duane,
I too like to edit my prose before pressing send.
I have in past sent email that I regretted later. I hadn't anticipated the irritation that my message conveyed to others. So, for me "flow of consciousness" is not as productive as carefully considered messages which by the way also help me to improve my own understanding.
One limitation with careful editing is that I don't respond to as many topics.

Indiana Bob

Some people prefer the "flow of consciousness" technique where they talk and talk or write and write until they finally feel their thought is adequately covered -somewhere-among the words. 

Others, me included, would rather keep mulling things thru our minds until it condenses itself into a succinct written/spoken form. 

The "others" sometimes need patience with the other style!

May we all grow together regardless of style.

[olasupo jacobs]

2Co 1:3  Blessed be God, euen the Father of our Lord Iesus Christ, the Father of mercies, and the God of all comfort,
2Co 1:4  Who comforteth vs in all our tribulation, that we may be able to comfort them which are in any trouble, by the comfort, wherewith we our selues are comforted of God.

1Co 11:31  ForG1063 ifG1487 we would judgeG1252 ourselves,G1438 we should notG3756 be judged.G2919
1Co 11:32  ButG1161 when we are judged,G2919 we are chastenedG3811 ofG5259 the Lord,G2962 thatG2443 we should notG3361 be condemnedG2632 withG4862 theG3588 world.G2889

Its imperative that you only give what u have....Christ would be a righteous judge because he's been tempted in every way like we are and he's come out clean...scriptures affirm that he's able to help them who are going thru all temptations. In like manner the saints won't be able to judge the world in the next age if they haven't been thru judgment themselves in this age(NOW) ... where would they learn compassion, loving their enemies & neighbours, overcoming evil with good and all virtues etc  there is no short cut to become an OVER COMER other than the way Jesus overcame the world...its not a walk in the park, the LOF option i believe would be more difficult than this present scenario where we have to judge ourselves.  To all forum members keep d good work and be comforted- Olasupo Jacobs, Nigeria