We will be changed

[dave]

On some much of the word that is being expressed of The Kingdom message I am in line with. Yet on some, I have not found a witness in the Word of God. This subject I am about to raise is one that I have not received witness to in the Word.  Much is said about it using words that I do not find in the Bible, I see why and how the expressions are used, in me (my mind) but I do not find evidence that it is so. I post this in hopes that I may receive confirmation or?with me.

Much is said in the world of Christianity about it. I have come to believe that just about everything that is produced by orthodox Christianity and religion is fabricated for itchy ears, control, and enlargement of a congregation [and money]. 

The phrases "spiritual body/bodies" and "glorified body/bodies," I cannot find in the Bible. Yet much is said about the subject and that we will receive at a future time.  With the exception for ICor. 15:44 and he speaks of a body or "one body."

1Co 15:51 Behold, I tell you a mystery: We all shall not sleep, but we shall all be changed,
Mystery: a secret (through the idea of silence imposed by invitation) so this mystery is something that has invitation to its value.
"but we shall all be changed," Changed: to make different from a primary word; "else."
That is "different."

1Co 15:52  in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
In that moment....we shall be made different...something else.
Paul in no way does not speak of a "spiritual body" that we will be changed to, nor does he speak of a "glorified body." He speaks of being "changed" to something different.

What we are changed to I believe as it is said by Paul.
1Co 12:20  But now they are many members, but one body.
Eph 4:3 endeavoring to keep the unity of the spirit with the tie of peace:
Eph 4:4 one body and one spirit, according as you were called also with one expectation of your calling;"
Eph 4:5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism,
Eph 4:6 one God and Father of all, Who is over all and through all and in all."

I believe that we, those who are growing in Christ, perhaps, feel there is going to be some kind of individuality when we are changed from this many member body when we are changed to ONE BODY.
Thank you. Peace and Love Through Jesus

[Dave in Tenn]

I won't attempt to explain, but I do want to put the assertion that 'spiritual bodies' are not in the Scripture to rest:

1Co 15:35  But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?
1Co 15:36  Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:
1Co 15:37  And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain:
1Co 15:38  But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.
1Co 15:39  All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds.
1Co 15:40  There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.
1Co 15:41  There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.
1Co 15:42  So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
1Co 15:43  It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
1Co 15:44  It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

Maybe that makes the rest of your point moot.

[Akira329]

Hope the scriptures Dave gave you eases your doubt.
As for your other comments:

I believe that we, those who are growing in Christ, perhaps, feel there is going to be some kind of individuality when we are changed from this many member body when we are changed to ONE BODY.
Thank you. Peace and Love Through Jesus

You quote 1 Corinthians 12:20
1Co 12:20  But now are they many members, yet but one body.
How does this verse explain to you that being many doesn't make one body???
Your own body serves as an example, read verses 14 - 20

I'm not going to quote all these verses in chapter 12 but this one should help you understand:
1Co 12:12  For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ.

Hope this helps
Antaiwan

[Kat]

Hi Micah7:9,

The phrases "spiritual body/bodies" and "glorified body/bodies," I cannot find in the Bible. Yet much is said about the subject and that we will receive at a future time.

The mystery of the Scriptures is not laid out there for everyone to see. But for those that He gives eyes to see He will show us how to put the Scriptures together to learn these things, as Ray does. We know that Christ had great glory before He came into the flesh as God of the OT and we also know that Christ recieved that glory back when He returned to heaven after His resurrection.

John 17:5  And now Father, glorify Me with Yourself with the glory which I had with You before the world was.

Now in 1 John we can see that we will be like the resurrected Christ in all His glory.

1John 3:2  Beloved, now we are children of God, and it has not yet been revealed what we shall be. But we know that when He shall be revealed, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is.

This is certainly speaking of the gloried Christ and we will be "like Him," spirit. Jesus Christ Himself explained what is needed to be actually born into the kingdom.

John 3:5  Jesus answered, Truly, truly, I say to you, Unless a man is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

"The Spirit" spoken of here is the Holy Spirit given/begotten to the few chosen Elect as an earnest in this life (2 Cor 1:22).

v. 6  That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
v. 7  Do not marvel that I said to you, You must be born again.

Christ goes on to explain exactly what He mean by "born of the Spirit."

John 3:8  The Spirit breathes where He desires, and you hear His voice, but you do not know from where He comes, and where He goes; so is everyone who is born of the Spirit.

This is clearly not a physical body He is speaking of that those born into the kingdom. Also this would explain how upon resurrection the Elect will all rise up to meet Him in the air.

1Th 4:17  Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air. And so we shall ever be with the Lord.

A physical body will not rise up to meet Christ in the air. Hope this helps.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[dave]

Im not trying to argue your points I know what you are saying, I have believed it for many moons, still my asking is for someone[ha] to tell me just what is one?
I see the concept Paul teaches of a many member body here in the earth realm, but where is the many member in one in heavenly realm? I have been listening to Rays audio, Is Jesus God and related audio, and Ray says it all comes down to ONE.
How many is  one Spirit, one Body, one faith, one baptism, one Lord?
Should I be one with Him, what is the need of me or I when we will be like Him, one with Him.
Joh 10:30  I and the Father are one.'

Thank you all for your comments. As I said Im not trying to cause discord, just troubled on this subject.

[mharrell08]

Im not trying to argue your points I know what you are saying, I have believed it for many moons, still my asking is for someone[ha] to tell me just what is one?
I see the concept Paul teaches of a many member body here in the earth realm, but where is the many member in one in heavenly realm? I have been listening to Rays audio, Is Jesus God and related audio, and Ray says it all comes down to ONE.
How many is  one Spirit, one Body, one faith, one baptism, one Lord?
Should I be one with Him, what is the need of me or I when we will be like Him, one with Him.
Joh 10:30  I and the Father are one.'

Thank you all for your comments. As I said Im not trying to cause discord, just troubled on this subject.

Multiple individuals can be thought of as one collective body. Jesus and the Father are one, but not literally the same entity. Jesus was dead but the universe didn't collapse on itself. The Father continued to sustain it.

Just because we are going to be 'one' with God doesn't mean we lose our individual personalities. Having an individual personality is not our problem, having a flawed/sinful personality is.

[Marky Mark]

Im not trying to argue your points I know what you are saying, I have believed it for many moons, still my asking is for someone[ha] to tell me just what is one?
I see the concept Paul teaches of a many member body here in the earth realm, but where is the many member in one in heavenly realm? I have been listening to Rays audio, Is Jesus God and related audio, and Ray says it all comes down to ONE.
How many is  one Spirit, one Body, one faith, one baptism, one Lord?
Should I be one with Him, what is the need of me or I when we will be like Him, one with Him.
Joh 10:30  I and the Father are one.'

Thank you all for your comments. As I said Im not trying to cause discord, just troubled on this subject.

One in unity of Spirit is what we are to be in Christ and the Father.Just as the Father and Son are of one Spirit so shall we be in that same Spirit of oneness.All of Gods people will be members of the body of Christ by having the same mind as Christ and the Father, in unity,in one,all in all.

Jesus is the head of the body and we are to be the parts of that body which will make up the whole of it,together with the Father and Son,as members of the whole body,the church.The unity [or oneness] of the whole is that one Spirit with ONE mind.When we abide in the doctrines of our Lord we then are all of one faith.

Deu 6:4 Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD:

Zec 14:9  So will Yahweh become king over all the earth,—In that day, shall there be one Yahweh, and, his Name, be one.

Rom 15:6 That ye may with one mind and one mouth glorify God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.

2Co 13:11 Finally, brethren, farewell. Be perfect, be of good comfort, be of one mind, live in peace; and the God of love and peace shall be with you.

Phi 1:27 Only let your conversation be as it becometh the gospel of Christ: that whether I come and see you, or else be absent, I may hear of your affairs, that ye stand fast in one spirit, with one mind striving together for the faith of the gospel;

Phi 2:2 Fulfil ye my joy, that ye be likeminded, having the same love, being of one accord, of one mind.

1Pe 3:8 Finally, be ye all of one mind, having compassion one of another, love as brethren, be pitiful, be courteous:


Hope this helps some.

Peace...Mark

[Kat]

Hi Micah7:9,

Should I be one with Him, what is the need of me or I when we will be like Him, one with Him.

John 17:21  I pray that they may all be one. Father! May they be in Us, just as You are in Me and I am in You. May they be one, so that the world will believe that You sent Me.
v. 22  I gave them the same glory You gave Me, so that they may be one, just as You and I are one:
v. 23  I in them and You in Me, so that they may be completely one, in order that the world may know that you sent Me and that you love them as You love Me. (GNB)

God will bring us all to be one - united - complete - mature - of the same mind, as part of His body/family/kingdom. This is what it will be when we are perfected/born into the kingdom and have the mind of Christ, but not to the exclusion of the individual we have become.

The experiences we have in this life are for a grand purpose, to give us knowledge about the things we go through in this life. This experience/knowledge that we have gained will not be thrown away, but put to very good use when we enter God's kingdom. We are learning love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control to have these qualities of spirit when we judge the world. We are being put through different experiences to become individuals with different gifts/talents/abilities. Someone may have dealt alot with anger issues, another with alcohol abuse and all manners of other difficulties, so God's will have a whole family of perfected judges at His ready.

This is the process that in His wisdom He knows will bring about what He desires for His family. I see this as a glorious plan, beyond our wildest imagination in scope of possiblities.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[dave]

I have been studying all those verses and others as well. I see and understand the many member body that Paul speaks of; those who make up the the body of Christ now here on earth. How it must be the whole body working together as one. Yet this Body of many, here To Day, is to mature and grow into The Christ (Son) the Overcomer and for that it will be the mind of Christ Jesus(one mind) that must be fully grown in that body. So there are no individual minds working in this body, only one. So when we are ALL in ALL where is the individual in all this?
I dont know, Im with you all, thats what Ive been taught and have accepted a long time. But it just seems the Lord is taking a people that will HEAR (not saying thats me especially) to a higher understanding of ONE.. when all is finished or complete. I am probably being misunderstood.
Peace and Love Through Jesus

Thanks Kat that bears some study.

[mharrell08]

So there are no individual minds working in this body, only one. So when we are ALL in ALL where is the individual in all this?

Who says there are no individual minds working in one body?

[dave]

So there are no individual minds working in this body, only one. So when we are ALL in ALL where is the individual in all this?

Who says there are no individual minds working in one body?

Well arent we to have the mind of Christ?

1Co 1:10 Now I am entreating you, brethren, through the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all may be saying the same thing, and there may be no schisms among you, but you may be attuned to the same mind and to the same opinion."

[Kat]

1Co 2:11  It is only our own spirit within us that knows all about us; in the same way, only God's Spirit knows all about God.
v. 12  We have not received this world's spirit; instead, we have received the Spirit sent by God, so that we may know all that God has given us.
v. 13  So then, we do not speak in words taught by human wisdom, but in words taught by the Spirit, as we explain spiritual truths to those who have the Spirit.
v. 14  Whoever does not have the Spirit cannot receive the gifts that come from God's Spirit. Such a person really does not understand them, and they seem to be nonsense, because their value can be judged only on a spiritual basis.
v. 15  Whoever has the Spirit, however, is able to judge the value of everything, but no one is able to judge him.
v. 16  As the scripture says, "Who knows the mind of the Lord? Who is able to give him advice?" We, however, have the mind of Christ. (GNB)

This is Paul speaking now "we, however, have the mind of Christ." The mind of Christ is from His Spirit indwelling that gives us eyes to see these spiritual truths. But now we also still have the pull of the carnal flesh, that will not be the case when we are spirit and fully born into the kingdom.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[dave]

1Co 2:11  It is only our own spirit within us that knows all about us; in the same way, only God's Spirit knows all about God.
v. 12  We have not received this world's spirit; instead, we have received the Spirit sent by God, so that we may know all that God has given us.
v. 13  So then, we do not speak in words taught by human wisdom, but in words taught by the Spirit, as we explain spiritual truths to those who have the Spirit.
v. 14  Whoever does not have the Spirit cannot receive the gifts that come from God's Spirit. Such a person really does not understand them, and they seem to be nonsense, because their value can be judged only on a spiritual basis.
v. 15  Whoever has the Spirit, however, is able to judge the value of everything, but no one is able to judge him.
v. 16  As the scripture says, "Who knows the mind of the Lord? Who is able to give him advice?" We, however, have the mind of Christ. (GNB)

This is Paul speaking now "we, however, have the mind of Christ." The mind of Christ is from His Spirit indwelling that gives us eyes to see these spiritual truths. But now we also still have the pull of the carnal flesh, that will not be the case when we are spirit and fully born into the kingdom.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

Amen!

[mharrell08]

Well arent we to have the mind of Christ?

1Co 1:10 Now I am entreating you, brethren, through the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all may be saying the same thing, and there may be no schisms among you, but you may be attuned to the same mind and to the same opinion."

Yes, and to have the mind of Christ means to have the same mindset or type of thoughts. Not to share the same single mind. People won't lose their personality or individuality...those things are not sins to have. It's the way people think that needs to be cleansed.

[John from Kentucky]

Let me throw a monkey wrench into the discussion.

In another thread called "Re: Did you catch this?", Kat quoted a recent email from Ray.  In discussing The Father and Jesus, Ray said, "I say IF they are separate Beings with separate personalities."

Ray is moving far ahead of most of us and even some of his past writings.

If the Father and Jesus are not separate, but are indeed One God.  Well that changes a lot of my understandings of things concerning God.  What Ray is currently studying has profound ramifications.  I wonder how open minded some of us will be to where the Spirit and the Scriptures may be taking us.

The matter seems to come down to: Are the Father and Jesus two separate beings?  Two minds?  Two wills?  Two Gods?

Or, are They One God?  One Mind?  One Will? One Personality?

This matter puzzles me greatly.  I wish Ray hadn't got me thinking on this subject.  It makes the mind go round and round.  I am greatly anticipating reading Ray's scriptural analysis of this issue.

[Kat]

Hi John,

The matter seems to come down to: Are the Father and Jesus two separate beings?  Two minds?  Two wills?  Two Gods?

Or, are They One God?  One Mind?  One Will? One Personality?

I can see how this appears to be one or the other, but maybe not. Here is a excerpt from the March Bible study.


http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,12896.0.html -------------

Did Jesus Christ say, I and My Father are one person? (John 10:30) No.

But here is what the Bible does say. In Genesis 11, this is the people speaking.

Gen 11:4  And they said, Go to, let US build US a city and a tower, whose top may reach unto heaven; and let US make US a name...

Everybody knows what that means, "us," right? There is a whole bunch of people saying that, "let us." Everyone understood the pronoun 'us' and what it stands for.

Gen 11:6  And the Lord said, Behold, the PEOPLE (multiple people, hundreds of thousands of people) is ONE...

Singular, all these people, "is one," Hebrew 'echad,' meaning unified or one.

v. 6 ...and they have all one language.

The next Lord, which is translated from Yahweh, this is not God Elohim. Now pay strict attention here. I thought if anybody has ever caught this, I've never heard of anybody catch this.

Gen 11:6  And the LORD (Yahweh, not Elohim) said...
v. 7   Go to, let US...

Now we have Yahweh saying "let Us." So what is going on?

I'll just say here the fact that God in the Old Testament most often uses the singular pronoun, He or Me or Mine, does not negate the fact that at other places it does use the plural.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[John from Kentucky]

Hi John,

The matter seems to come down to: Are the Father and Jesus two separate beings?  Two minds?  Two wills?  Two Gods?

Or, are They One God?  One Mind?  One Will? One Personality?

I can see how this appears to be one or the other, but maybe not. Here is a excerpt from the March Bible study.


http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,12896.0.html -------------

Did Jesus Christ say, I and My Father are one person? (John 10:30) No.

But here is what the Bible does say. In Genesis 11, this is the people speaking.

Gen 11:4  And they said, Go to, let US build US a city and a tower, whose top may reach unto heaven; and let US make US a name...

Everybody knows what that means, "us," right? There is a whole bunch of people saying that, "let us." Everyone understood the pronoun 'us' and what it stands for.

Gen 11:6  And the Lord said, Behold, the PEOPLE (multiple people, hundreds of thousands of people) is ONE...

Singular, all these people, "is one," Hebrew 'echad,' meaning unified or one.

v. 6 ...and they have all one language.

The next Lord, which is translated from Yahweh, this is not God Elohim. Now pay strict attention here. I thought if anybody has ever caught this, I've never heard of anybody catch this.

Gen 11:6  And the LORD (Yahweh, not Elohim) said...
v. 7   Go to, let US...

Now we have Yahweh saying "let Us." So what is going on?

I'll just say here the fact that God in the Old Testament most often uses the singular pronoun, He or Me or Mine, does not negate the fact that at other places it does use the plural.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------

mercy, peace and love
Kat

Hi Kat,

Yes, I remember that from the March bible study.  But Ray seems to be moving on from that study.  Your quote from Ray's recent email, "I say IF they are separate Beings with separate personalities",is a very interesting quote.  You quoted Ray accurately.

Yes, a most interesting journey do we go.  "Trailing clouds of glory do we come." (Wordsworth)

No one can answer my questions except God or a teacher sent by Him.

John

[Kat]

Hi John,

The March Bible study and the resent emails seems to be coming from the same study Ray is doing now. I can see how these things connect very well. But as Ray has stated several times there is so much more to these things.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[lilitalienboi16]

Maybe I'm very simple minded but I don't personally have a hard time understanding the relationship between the Father and the Son, our God. Maybe its because I was never taught this trinity thing, maybe its because I was never told how to look at our Father and our Savior.

I always think of this verse when I think of the relationship between the two.

Genesis 2:24 Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh.

Matthew 19:5 And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh?

How many people? TWO. How many flesh? ONE.

How many beings? TWO (Father and Son). How Many minds, Gods, bodys? ONE!

Maybe i'm oversimplifying things... i don't know.

God bless,

Alex

Edit: What does Yahweh mean, according to ray? I know Elohim is plural form of God, I think. thanks

[dave]

lilitalienboi16  alex. I like what you said somewhat my understanding as well. Yahweh, I beleve is Jehovah.