> General Discussions
Luke 23:34 - Ray's comments added, last post
DougE6:
Isa 55:6 Seek ye the LORD while he may be found, call ye upon him while he is near:
Jer 29:13 And ye shall seek me, and find me, when ye shall search for me with all your heart.
Mat 6:33 But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.
Mat 7:7 Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you
Col 3:1 If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God.
1Pe 3:11 Let him eschew evil, and do good; let him seek peace, and ensue it.
1Pe 3:12 For the eyes of the Lord are over the righteous, and his ears are open unto their prayers: but the face of the Lord is against them that do evil.
Rom 2:6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
Rom 2:7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
Jas 4:7 Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.
Col 3:12 Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering;
Col 3:13 Forbearing one another, and forgiving one another, if any man have a quarrel against any: even as Christ forgave you
Rom 13:14 But put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not provision for the flesh, to fulfil the lusts thereof.
2Co 10:5 Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;
Rev 3:15 I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot.
Rev 3:16 So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.
IF YOUR UNDERSTANDING OF THE TOTAL SOVEREIGNITY OF GOD CAUSES YOU TO PUT LESS AND LESS IMPORTANCE ON SCRIPTURES LIKE THESE ABOVE, EVEN SECRETLY, DEEP IN YOUR HEART, AND YOUR UNDERSTANDING CAN CAUSE YOU TO NOT ATTEMPT TO OBEY THEM OR ONLY TRY HALF HEARTEDLY BECAUSE THEY SOUND LIKE ‘FREE WILL’ TO YOU, THEN YOUR UNDERSTANDING IS FLAWED.
I see no qualifier IN ANY SCRIPTURE WHATSOEVER that we need to wait till we are personally convinced God is motivating us. If you are not motivated, then REPENT your heart is wrong and you better seek God just like those scriptures tell you to do, and just like those scriptures attest, God will reward those who earnestly seek Him. Not ONE of us is PRIVY to the workings of God behind the scenes. So stop acting like you are, just because you see through a glass darkly and now think you are so wise; and can see some of His workings; start obeying all those scriptures!
JohnMichael:
Doug,
(1) Show me two Scriptures that say that Man can follow any of His commandments WITHOUT the influence of God.
(2) Show me two Scriptures that say that Man can repent WITHOUT the influence of God.
Otherwise, a personal agenda is being pushed over Scriptural Truth. No one is saying that man has nothing to do. No one is saying that man can just sit back, sipping his iced Tea, and watch God do all the work. No one is saying that man has no part to play.
There is a time and a place for everything. There is a time to be zealous and a time to be meek. There is a time to preach and a time to be taught. God decides; not man.
I'm not saying any of this out of condemnation - only the desire to help.
In Him,
John
(1) Man cannot follow God's commandments without God
Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
Jer 13:23 Can the Ethiopian change his skin, or the leopard his spots? then may ye also do good, that are accustomed to do evil.
Jer 2:22 For though thou wash thee with nitre, and take thee much soap, yet thine iniquity is marked before me, saith the Lord GOD.
(2) Man cannot repent without God
Rom 2:4 Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?
Job 33:27 He looketh upon men, and if any say, I have sinned, and perverted that which was right, and it profited me not;
Job 33:28 He will deliver his soul from going into the pit, and his life shall see the light.
Job 33:29 Lo, all these things worketh God oftentimes with man,
Job 33:30 To bring back his soul from the pit, to be enlightened with the light of the living.
Rom 3:25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
Rom 3:26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.
bluzman:
Thank you JohnMichael for your last post. You have said what I was trying to get across in my earlier post, and I wasn't clear with my words or thoughts. I am going through, I believe, and not for the first time either, a feeling of abandonment by God.
It is a very heartbreaking experience when family, friends or coworkers ostracize a person, but very devastating when applied to Higher Spiritual things. Perhaps my thinking is totally wrong and this is my own delusion. I hope so.
I do care and think about all of you.
May God be with you, Bluzsman
DougE6:
Hi John
Thank you for saying this
--- Quote ---No one is saying that man has nothing to do. No one is saying that man can just sit back, sipping his iced Tea, and watch God do all the work. No one is saying that man has no part to play.
--- End quote ---
The reason I come on as strong as I do, is because these words are rarely found here on this site. And I understand that, because the truth of God's total sovereignity is such a new experience for most! But I see/and know that the exact things you described above are the natural human tendency. You mean God is doing everything? So if I feel like lusting, that is God doing it? How ridiculous. And I do not believe God wants us to lose ANY ZEAL in our fervor or efforts in light of understanding His sovereignity. TRUTH is supposed to SPUR you on, to help you run the race with victory not accepting defeat. I do NOT object AT ALL to the constant refrain, that All is of God. ITS TRUE! However, I do feel the direct statements that say God is the one who raped little children, are not the true understanding. I think Ray has made that clear.
I don't think any of the verses I quoted above has any qualifier on them, at all. They all spiritually match one another, pretty close. There is nothing in the text that says, Jer 29:13 And ye shall seek me, and find me, when ye shall search for me with all your heart, IF YOU CAN DETERMINE THAT IT IS OF GOD RIGHT NOW> IF YOU DONT FEEL LIKE IT< WELL THEN RIGHT NOW< APPARENTLY IT IS NOT OF GOD RIGHT NOW SO SIT ON THE COUCH AND SIP ICE TEA, don't bother trying> so don't bother trying to seek Him. These are simple commands of fact, they need no qualifiers.
--- Quote ---There is a time and a place for everything. There is a time to be zealous and a time to be meek. There is a time to preach and a time to be taught. God decides; not man.
--- End quote ---
Very true. And I think it is time for someone to be zealous for the other side of the coin to balance out WITH the plain plumb true fact that God wants you-all- to seek Him with your whole heart. No matter what. And no doctrine should/will discourage you in any way from doing this. You have to have both points of view in mind always, the absolute, and the relative. We know the absolute by what actually happens, but we have to give our sweat blood and tears as Jesus did. YES WE DO>
GaryK:
--- Quote from: DougE6 on August 25, 2011, 11:05:06 PM ---
Isa 55:6 Seek ye the LORD while he may be found, call ye upon him while he is near:
Jer 29:13 And ye shall seek me, and find me, when ye shall search for me with all your heart.
Mat 6:33 But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.
Mat 7:7 Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you
Col 3:1 If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God.
1Pe 3:11 Let him eschew evil, and do good; let him seek peace, and ensue it.
1Pe 3:12 For the eyes of the Lord are over the righteous, and his ears are open unto their prayers: but the face of the Lord is against them that do evil.
Rom 2:6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
Rom 2:7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
Jas 4:7 Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.
Col 3:12 Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering;
Col 3:13 Forbearing one another, and forgiving one another, if any man have a quarrel against any: even as Christ forgave you
Rom 13:14 But put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not provision for the flesh, to fulfil the lusts thereof.
2Co 10:5 Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;
Rev 3:15 I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot.
Rev 3:16 So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.
IF YOUR UNDERSTANDING OF THE TOTAL SOVEREIGNITY OF GOD CAUSES YOU TO PUT LESS AND LESS IMPORTANCE ON SCRIPTURES LIKE THESE ABOVE, EVEN SECRETLY, DEEP IN YOUR HEART, AND YOUR UNDERSTANDING CAN CAUSE YOU TO NOT ATTEMPT TO OBEY THEM OR ONLY TRY HALF HEARTEDLY BECAUSE THEY SOUND LIKE ‘FREE WILL’ TO YOU, THEN YOUR UNDERSTANDING IS FLAWED.
I see no qualifier IN ANY SCRIPTURE WHATSOEVER that we need to wait till we are personally convinced God is motivating us. If you are not motivated, then REPENT your heart is wrong and you better seek God just like those scriptures tell you to do, and just like those scriptures attest, God will reward those who earnestly seek Him. Not ONE of us is PRIVY to the workings of God behind the scenes. So stop acting like you are, just because you see through a glass darkly and now think you are so wise; and can see some of His workings; start obeying all those scriptures!
--- End quote ---
Son, are you talking to me? If so, read on. If not, rise above.
Normally I try to rise above and cause no stumble. Today I’ll make an exception, for you.
Don’t you hand-feed me, like popcorn, scripture as if you’re in judgment of the intent of my heart. You don’t have the experience and you’re not qualified, not yet anyway. And don’t be preaching and shouting, I hear you fine enough.
You have a good way with words Doug, they’re polished. Polish is a pretty covering, but skin deep. My words usually kink, jostle and splatter their way through and every now and then, like a miracle, they join up to make a complete sentence. Sometimes, hell, they even make a little sense.
This will be one of those times, so pay attention.
The use of the word ‘IF’ has both positive and negative implications. And don’t roll your eyes as if you knew the difference, you didn’t.
Negative:
Matthew 4:3 And when the tempter came to him, he said, ---If--- thou be the Son of God, command that these stones be made bread.
6And saith unto him,--- If--- thou be the Son of God, cast thyself down: for it is written, He shall give his angels charge concerning thee: and in their hands they shall bear thee up, lest at any time thou dash thy foot against a stone.
9And saith unto him, All these things will I give thee, ---if--- thou wilt fall down and worship me.
9 words: “thirst comes from God even--- if--- that is true,”
Those last 9 are your words Doug. I’m talking to you.
Positive:
“But there are spiritual principals in the bible that God has left us, and if God has not opened up your understanding, I’ll give you these spiritual principals, but you’ll still go out of here and say, “I don’t know what Ray is talking about.” But if He opens your understanding and only God can do it, and then you’ll say, “I know what he’s talking about now.”
How Hard is Getting Saved? by L. Ray Smith
People scramble a lifetime ping-ponging on a two letter word……“IF”. That small word enslaves and destroys. Ray, in 30 or so papers and countless emails, has exemplified the positive side of the word “IF” and extricated more than one soul-slave from the prison of ‘NEGATIVE ---IF---‘. That’s what that man does, and, I see that as the backbone of BT.
Careful on your use of the word “IF” Doug, not knowing the how of it can be destructive.
If I offend you, good, you won’t hear an apology. What you will hear is advice from a seasoned veteran.
Psalms 23:4 “Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death I will fear no evil: for thou art with me; thy rod and thy staff they comfort me.
If I didn’t make a difference showing you what the word “IF” can do, during your walk, you’ll find it isn’t “---if---thou art with me.
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