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Author Topic: is it important to change mind about freewill ?  (Read 11823 times)

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odading

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Re: is it important to change mind about freewill ?
« Reply #20 on: November 18, 2011, 01:24:26 PM »

We MUST all LEARN to HATE the character flaws and evil in our hearts
Dear DougE6.... I'm sorry... but really .. this is a very "difficult situation" for me....

suppose, God's Will the athlete to win by tomorrow. In order to fulfill His Will - so with His Will - He made the athlete to train hard today, and to every little things the athlete do today just as long as to support the athlete wins by tomorrow.

Then... where is "the must" ?
The athlete won't possible (or need not) to think "he must"... isn't God's Will have made him to do everything today in order he wins tomorrow ?

very sorry for my stupidity...  :'(
and thank you for your enlightenment.

regards,
odading.
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odading

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Re: is it important to change mind about freewill ?
« Reply #21 on: November 18, 2011, 01:32:09 PM »

Kat was very wise to turn thoughts away from thinking about what does not exist--free will--and turning them towards what DOES exist--the sovereignty of God.
Yes, she did. And I'm learning now, that it's not the "freewill" but it's only a "will"... :)

Quote
There's only so much the mind of man can understand about the ways of God.  We really begin to learn these things in and through obedience.  If you want to do good, then try to do good and see if you can.  Try it as an experiemnt if you're not yet ready to commit.  You'll learn more than the forum can 'teach' you.
This is a wise advice also for me. I think I can not rush everything.... I need to give myself "more time" to my understanding about how God "works" :)

Thank you so much Dave for your input.

regards,
odading.
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Dave in Tenn

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Re: is it important to change mind about freewill ?
« Reply #22 on: November 18, 2011, 01:56:10 PM »

You're welcome.  And if you choose to do the experiment, the rest of us scientists may want to hear the results.   :D
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Heb 10:32  But you must continue to remember those earlier days, how after you were enlightened you endured a hard and painful struggle.

JohnMichael

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Re: is it important to change mind about freewill ?
« Reply #23 on: November 18, 2011, 02:14:45 PM »

God is responsible for evil, for good, for the way the world is, for the way people are, and for everything. God doesn't make man sin. However, God did create man's heart exceedingly weak. Thus, God is responsible.

Man is accountable for his choices because man desires to sin, to do evil, and to be carnal (those desires come from that exceedingly weak heart).
I've just search an online bible with "responsible" keyword. Why the verse use "responsible" not "accountable" ?

Quote
There's a slight difference between accountable and responsible.

Accountable: subject to the obligation to report, explain, or justify something

Responsible: chargeable with being the author

Notice how one is the controlled and the other is the controller?
In a real life can I make the analogy something like : The boss is responsible - his staff is accountable (which mean his staff doesn't need to be responsible to himself and his boss ? (very sorry... as I don't quite get the meaning of "accountable").

Anyway... thank you for your respond John.

regards,
odading.

Hi Odading,

In regards to your first question, what verse are you referring to?

As to your second question, yes that analogy would work. Here's another analogy: A parent and child. A child does something wrong. The parent is responsible because the child is the parent's procreation. The child is accountable for whatever he/she did wrong. If a child steals candy from a candy store, the parent has to pay for it. The child, however, is accountable because the child is the one who stole the candy. Because of the child's actions, the child may be banned from going to that store anymore. God is the parent (our Heavenly Father), and we are the child.

Hope this helps.

In Him,
John
« Last Edit: November 18, 2011, 02:23:34 PM by JohnMichael »
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Kat

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Re: is it important to change mind about freewill ?
« Reply #24 on: November 18, 2011, 02:29:30 PM »


Hi Odading,

I took a few excerpts from the Biblestudy ‘FREE WILL’ IS AN OXYMORON.

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,5154.msg40741.html#msg40741 ----

From: the Nazarene.com (In italics)

The Principle of Cause and Effect underlies all scientific thought, ancient and modern, and was enunciated by the Essenic Teachers in the earliest days. While many and varied disputes between the many schools of thought have since arisen, these disputes have been principally upon the details of the operations of the Principle, and still more often upon the meaning of certain words. The underlying Principle of Cause and Effect has been accepted as correct by practically all the thinkers of the world worthy of the name. To think otherwise would be to take the phenomena of the universe from the domain of law and Order, and to relegate it; to the control of the imaginary something which men have called “chance.”  

Comment: This is a pretty profound statement right there. What scientist or who do you suppose discovered or propagated this law of ‘cause and effect?’ What kind of knowledge and information would it take? What kind of scientific instrumentality would it require, to nail down this principle? Any ideas? A mathematician maybe? How long do you think they knew about this? Who do you think the first person was that came along and said, ‘do you know that everything in the universe that we see happen, had a cause.’? How long ago do you think that might have been?
 
About 425 BCE, Greek philosopher Socrates propounded the foundational of western philosophy and western thought. Socrates stated that we live in a world governed by law, whether we understand the principles behind it or not. It was later known as the ‘Socratic Method of Argument.’ It was from this premise that Socrates argued all his other philosophies. It was based on this one solid fundamental principle. Later it was known as the ‘Socratic Law of Causality,’ today called ‘The Law of Cause and Effect.’ It is nearly 25 centuries old and it was one of the reasons that Socrates was put to death. Just like declaring the earth revolves around the sun, rather than the sun around the earth.  

Comment: I interject the thought here, suppose we do have free will. What good is it? Can you tell me something in your life that it has done for you that‘s good? It’s worthless, it’s worse than worthless, it’s pinning your hopes on something that doesn’t exist.

Here are more quotations from this paper.  

As a result, physicists, neuroscientists and computer scientists have joined the heirs of Plato and Aristotle in arguing about what free will is. Whether we have it and if not, why we ever thought we did in the first place.
 
Mark Hallett, (researcher with the National Institute of Neurological Disorders and Strokes) said, “If Free will does exist, it’s a perception, not a power or a driving force. People experience free will. They have the sense they are free.

  
Comment: It’s a feeling, nothing but a feeling.
  
The more you scrutinize it, the more you realize you don’t have it.

In other words, he said we feel like we have it, we feel like we have this thing called free will. I mean you get up in the morning, you say I’ll have coffee and reach over an have that to eat. This is all free, see. Why is it free? Because we PERCEIVE it to be free. When you look at it carefully though, what does this scientist say, the more you look at it and scrutinize it, you realize you don’t have it. It doesn’t exist, it’s a figment of your imagination, it’s an allusion, it’s an idol of the heart. It’s something you wish you had and you want to have and whether you do or you don’t, you’re going to say you do. That’s what it is, it’s an allusion at best.  

That is hardly a new thought (the German philosopher Arthur Schopenhauer said), as Einstein paraphrased it, that a human can very well DO what he wants, but cannot WILL what he wants.

Comment: Have I not said that through out my papers. Have I not said that if a man lusts after a little girl, he can figure out a way to corner her, steal her away, kidnap her, have sex with her and cut her head off. Can he do that? Can he not do what he DESIRES to do? Yes he can.  

This is so profound. This is coming from Arthur Schopenhauer;

That a human can very well ‘do’ what he wants, but cannot ‘will’ what he wants.

I’m telling you there is more truth in that statement than most theologians have ever gleamed from the Bible in there entire lives. You can choose what you desire, what you want, how can you do that? The human brain, the human mind has the ability. It is beyond any computer, it is so fabulous and marvelous, it is beyond comprehension. That it can gather information and data and analyze it and make decisions regarding it. It can do that, there is no doubt that it can do that. But that it can do that without a cause, is total hog wash and unscriptural heresy and demeans the very sovereignty of God. It’s tantamount to saying, I know we are here, I know we exist, but no God made us.
  
Everything has a cause. Your thoughts, your choices have a cause and the second you take away the cause, you don’t have a choice. So the idea, that you have a freedom that has no cause to make choices, is insane, it is stupid.  
v
v
So if human actions cannot be caused and are not random, then it must be what, some kind of weird magical power?

This is a scientist talking here. Dr.Wegner (of Harvard) said;

I think that exposing free will as an illusion, would have little effect on people’s lives or on their feelings of self-worth. Most of them would remain in denial.

Isn’t that the truth, they just deny it and say, ‘oh well my pastor teaches this and your just a scientist and I don’t believe you.’ He (Wegner) said;

It’s an illusion, but it’s a very persistent illusion; it keeps coming back. Comparing it to a magician’s trick that has been seen again and again. Even though you know it’s a trick, you get fooled every time. The feeling just doesn’t go away.  

It’s amazing, even when people are educated that this can not exist, like a magician’s trick, they still go out from this Bible study and think some how they do have free will anyway, because it APPEARS that way. I mean the magician really did pull a rabbit out of a hat, and you know it’s a trick, he showed you how he did it. But when he does it, it still ‘appears’ like he did something magical and you believe it.
v
v
This is what should humble everyone of us. We are no better that anyone else! Except by the grace of God, that is the only reason!

Why don’t we all have leukemia? The grace of God.  
Why aren’t we all blind? The grace of God.  
Are there blind people? Yes. Why isn’t it us? Grace of God, no other reason.  

God determined who we were, when we would be born, where, and under what circumstances. What sins we would commit, what sins we wouldn’t commit, it’s all predetermined of God. Why? Because God is sovereign, that’s why. He is in control of everything!  

But people despise the Word of God. I show people a scripture and they despise it. “I create evil…” ‘No He doesn’t, it means calamity.’ There are words that mean calamity, there are words translated in the Hebrew that mean calamity, ‘RA’ is not one of them. In Isaiah 45:7 it’s ‘RA’ the same word translated over 600 times ‘evil’ that’s what He created.
 -------------------------------------------------------------

There is so much to learn on all this, it takes a lot of study and pray to unlearn all these false ideas.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

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Dave in Tenn

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Re: is it important to change mind about freewill ?
« Reply #25 on: November 18, 2011, 03:39:17 PM »

Here are two links to audio recorded at a bible-study where Ray taught extensively on the subject.  I hope 'listening' is easier on you than reading.  Either way, it is worth the headache.   :D

Part 1:  http://bible-truths.com/audio/Bible%20Study%208_03_08%20Pt%201.mp3

Part 2:  http://bible-truths.com/audio/Bible%20Study%208_03_08%20Pt%202.mp3
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Heb 10:32  But you must continue to remember those earlier days, how after you were enlightened you endured a hard and painful struggle.

GaryK

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Re: is it important to change mind about freewill ?
« Reply #26 on: November 19, 2011, 05:06:12 PM »

Douge6:

“Remember we are all volunteers,  WE DO CHOOSE to DO our sins,

God doesn't FORCE us to sin.”




John from Kentucky:

 “In all things, big and small, good and evil, life and death---

God rules and is the Cause behind everything that is.

There is a scripture that says birds do not die without His say.

Another scripture says the hairs on our head are numbered by God.

Those two scriptures show that

God micromanages all things to the smallest degree.”



Dave in Tenn:

Our choices are all caused by something or someone

And even the causes are caused through things we have no control over in our pasts and our present--our ancestry, our geography, history, etc. etc. etc. 

These causes stretch all the way back to the Mind of God

in creation.  And He knows the end from the beginning.  He is the first 'cause' and continues to 'cause'.”



Douge6:

God being in control of all things, is actually the bottom line,

in the proper understanding of how events transpire in this universe.”




John Michael:
 

God is responsible for evil, for good, for the way the world is,

for the way people are, and for everything.

God doesn't make man sin.”




Douge6:

God

has created an individual path for us all to walk in,  This individual path includes sinful hearts, hearts that are at our core, hearts that we need to have revealed.  Exposed. Changed. Re-created like to be like Jesus heart.

Through the process of having us make choices,

even choices that could not be chosen in any other way,

is God's way of making us into His image.”




Kat,

from Ray:

God determined

who we were, when we would be born, where, and under what circumstances.

What sins we would commit, what sins we wouldn’t commit,

it’s all predetermined of God. Why? Because God is sovereign,

that’s why. He is in control of everything!”

=========-------------==========



and yet "god doesn't force us to sin" or "make man sin".........................>?

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Dave in Tenn

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Re: is it important to change mind about freewill ?
« Reply #27 on: November 19, 2011, 06:53:40 PM »

Mat 26:31-35  Then said Jesus to them, "All of you will be turned away from me this night: for it is said in the Writings, 'I will put to death the keeper of the sheep, and the sheep of the flock will be put to flight.'  But after I am come back from the dead, I will go before you into Galilee."
 
But Peter made answer and said to him, "Though all may be turned away from you, I will never be turned away."

Jesus said to him, "Truly I say to you that this night, before the hour of the cock's cry, you will say three times that you have no knowledge of me."

Peter says to him, "Even if I am put to death with you, I will not be false to you."  

So said all the disciples.


Jesus knew what would happen.  Peter (and the others) denied that they would do what He said, denying therefor that HE DID know.

Mat 26:69-75  Now Peter was seated in the open square outside the house: and a servant-girl came to him, saying, "You were with Jesus the Galilaean."

But he said before them all that it was false, saying, "I have no knowledge of what you say."

And when he had gone out into the doorway, another saw him and says to those who were there, "This man was with Jesus the Nazarene."

And again he said with an oath, "I have no knowledge of the man."

And after a little time those who were near came and said to Peter, "Truly you are one of them; because your talk is witness against you."

Then with curses and oaths he said, "I have no knowledge of the man."  And straight away there came the cry of a cock.

And the word of Jesus came back to Peter, when he said, "Before the hour of the cock's cry, you will say three times that you have no knowledge of me."  And he went out, weeping bitterly.


Jesus knew it would happen.  He said it would happen.  It did happen.  It still does.  That's our hope.  Why did Peter deny the Lord from His perspective?  To fulfill the prophecy.  God does His will all the time.  Why did Peter deny the Lord from his own perspective?  Because he was weak, in a word.  God hasn't fashioned us strong.  Haven't we got enough examples in Scripture, teachings of Scripture as well as our own life and observations that testify to this?

Just a reminder that this wasn't the end of Peter:

Act 2:14 (and following):  But Peter, getting up, with the eleven, said in a loud voice..."Men of Israel, give ear to these words: Jesus of Nazareth, a man who had the approval of God, as was made clear to you by the great works and signs and wonders which God did by him among you, as you yourselves have knowledge, Him, when he was given up, by the decision and knowledge of God, you put to death on the cross, by the hands of evil men: But God gave him back to life, having made him free from the pains of death because it was not possible for him to be overcome by it. 

The sovereignty of God is everywhere in Scripture.  Free-will is nowhere.  I had to 'pretend' for a while that it was so, before I could see that it was.  For the record, this isn't easy for me either, though it's not so much the doctrine anymore as the 'obedience' or the ramifications of the Doctrine in my own life.  There are no surprises for God.  There are plenty of surprises for our carnal minds.  

Anyways, for whatever it's worth, there's the sermon.
  
« Last Edit: November 19, 2011, 07:36:00 PM by Dave in Tenn »
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Heb 10:32  But you must continue to remember those earlier days, how after you were enlightened you endured a hard and painful struggle.

DougE6

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Re: is it important to change mind about freewill ?
« Reply #28 on: November 19, 2011, 07:07:23 PM »


Hi gk

That was a very creative and well designed post! Just to answer the question I think was posed to me. I simply do not like the word "forced" I think Ray has said something very similar, that he does not like that word in these situations either,  in emails.  I think the word "forced" has connatations that we weren't going along with our choices, that we are making our choices against our own will.  By definition, our will is making the choices! We aren't making choices AGAINST our will.

Doug
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Kat

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Re: is it important to change mind about freewill ?
« Reply #29 on: November 19, 2011, 08:54:35 PM »


Here is a few places where Ray speaks on this.

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,12957.msg113684.html --------

Aug. 2008 Bible study

                                                    FREE WILL

This really is an amazing concept. It’s been argued by theologians and philosophers for thousands of years. I mean going back further than the Christians faith; Plato, Aristotle - they all dealt with this thing of free will and so on.

Why do you think it is such a hard concept for people to understand? Why can’t they get it? [Comment: We make our own choices all day long.] Okay, so you think because it feels like we have free will? [Yes.] We don’t actually feel something hindering us, nobody actually twist our arm to make a decision. I mean we just kind of do it spontaneously, therefore we think nothing caused it. We may even think something may of influenced it, you know. But something actually causes it. Nothing made you think what you thought? Nothing made you do what you did? But of course it did.

We have to be careful about words, because words can make us very prejudice. We can say for example, someone is inspired to write a beautiful song. They were inspired, right? Or we could say somebody forced them to write a song… forced them. Well that’s not the same connotation is it, being inspired and being forced? But the truth of the matter is they both cause the song to be written, didn’t they? Yeah. So they are both a cause.

So the word 'cause' is not good or evil, I mean it’s just what it is. It can cause something happy, it can cause something sad. I mean the word ‘cause’ itself has no moral bias to it. So that’s true, people don’t feel like they are being coerced, therefore they think they have free will. But they don’t know what it is.


http://bible-truths.com/email14.htm -------------------------------

We choose all day long. God asks us to choose. The human brain has the ability to weigh data and make a choice. I nor the Scriptures deny this fact. What I AND THE SCRIPTURES do deny, is that man has the ability to make "UNCAUSED" choices. For that is what "free" will is all about--UNCAUSED choices, and I and the Scriptures both agree that this is a physiological impossibility. 

If something always MAKES OR CAUSES you to choose what you do, then you and your data-processing-brain are not "free" or out of the realm of "causality" to do anything, BUT what a cause made you choose. You can say the cause forced, made or soften to influenced, or inspired, but the end result is always the same: ALL OF OUR CHOICES ARE INFLUENCED, INSPIRED, OR CAUSED to happen by billions of circumstances beyond our knowledge or control.

Therefore King Nebuchadnezar was CAUSED to see that it is God and God alone who rules in the kingdoms of individual men and corporate men.  God said that it was HE, GOD, who CAUSED [MADE] the king of Assyria do the warring and slaughter that the king thought he himself had the ability to do.

Jesus said He could no NOTHING except what the Father gave Him to do AND TO EVEN SAY, and Jesus said that without Him, we also, CAN DO NOTHING.

Here is what the Scriptures say 

"For it is GOD which works in you both TO WILL AND TO DO of His good pleasure" (Phil. 2:13).
-------------------------------------------------------------------------

mercy, peace and love
Kat

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odading

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Re: is it important to change mind about freewill ?
« Reply #30 on: November 19, 2011, 09:38:45 PM »

In regards to your first question, what verse are you referring to?[
Sorry for the delay... :)

it's in Genesis 44:31 and Numbers 30:15

Quote
As to your second question, yes that analogy would work. Here's another analogy: A parent and child. A child does something wrong. The parent is responsible because the child is the parent's procreation. The child is accountable for whatever he/she did wrong. If a child steals candy from a candy store, the parent has to pay for it. The child, however, is accountable because the child is the one who stole the candy. Because of the child's actions, the child may be banned from going to that store anymore. God is the parent (our Heavenly Father), and we are the child.

Thank you for your explanation, John.

regards.
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odading

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Re: is it important to change mind about freewill ?
« Reply #31 on: November 19, 2011, 09:44:35 PM »

Why don’t we all have leukemia? The grace of God.  
Why aren’t we all blind? The grace of God.  
Are there blind people? Yes. Why isn’t it us? Grace of God, no other reason.  
I assume the one "not lucky" - they don't get grace of God ?

Quote
There is so much to learn on all this, it takes a lot of study and pray to unlearn all these false ideas.

mercy, peace and love
Kat
Yes.... I have to be honest, it still sooo difficult for me ...  :'(

Thank you Kat for your explanation and support.

regards.
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odading

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Re: is it important to change mind about freewill ?
« Reply #32 on: November 19, 2011, 09:50:35 PM »

Here are two links to audio recorded at a bible-study where Ray taught extensively on the subject.  I hope 'listening' is easier on you than reading.  Either way, it is worth the headache.   :D

Part 1:  http://bible-truths.com/audio/Bible%20Study%208_03_08%20Pt%201.mp3

Part 2:  http://bible-truths.com/audio/Bible%20Study%208_03_08%20Pt%202.mp3
Thank you Dave for the links.
I still haven't got time to download it and listen, but if God's Will then I will (most of my Muslim friends do that phrase :))

regards,
reko
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Re: is it important to change mind about freewill ?
« Reply #33 on: November 19, 2011, 10:08:03 PM »

Quote
But how can people be responsible if everything is God's Will and everything is His responsibility ?

God is responsible for evil, for good, for the way the world is, for the way people are, and for everything. God doesn't make man sin. However, God did create man's heart exceedingly weak. Thus, God is responsible.

Man is accountable for his choices because man desires to sin, to do evil, and to be carnal (those desires come from that exceedingly weak heart).

There's a slight difference between accountable and responsible.

Accountable: subject to the obligation to report, explain, or justify something

Responsible: chargeable with being the author

Notice how one is the controlled and the other is the controller?

Hope this helps; In Him,
John

Very nicely put john! Thank you! :)
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1 Cor 1:10 "Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment."

GaryK

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Re: is it important to change mind about freewill ?
« Reply #34 on: November 19, 2011, 10:13:23 PM »




To the original poster, I'm not attempting to steal your thread but allow me the flexibility for a few questions of my own since they are about free-will...........sort of.


Hi Dave.    I’m not arguing that God isn’t omniscient.   You’re right, scripture is full of details supporting same.   

No problem there.



Hi Kat, thanks for bringing that out and, yes indeed, understanding that there is no free-will is a hard concept for so many,  it has been for me and I’ve never pretended otherwise on this forum.   It remains so.   

But still, that’s not really what I’m attempting to nail down here.  I think I understand the cause and effect, and, just as Dave said going back to God’s mind during creation, or before.   

Got no problem with cause and effect.

But, it just seems rather contradictory to say that God controls everything by cause and effect, including our will to choose good or bad……depending on HIS will…..so we choose to sin by a designed weakened spiritual state which God installed in all humans………yet………he doesn’t cause us to sin.   I get lost, right there in that last sentence.    Makes no sense to me.   God is responsible, yes, and we are accountable, yes……..but……..if I COULD choose to do good I would.   But I don’t because of the weakened spiritual state, heart, mind…whatever…that HE implemented. 

To me, he’s responsible and accountable for the cause and the resulting choice and the resulting sin, just as much as I am accountable to commit a sin.



Hi Doug, yes the word ‘force’ is strong and Ray has certainly deflated that idea that we are forced.

It’s interesting that you bring up the ‘will’ of man.   I’m not arguing that it isn’t our will that is making choices.  Of course it is.

But.

Ray also says in his free-will series that our will……..will……...always be in accordance with the will of God, and in that manner no one has ever gone against God’s purpose, his will, yes, we all do, but not his purpose……if our will, that choice that we make, good or bad, is in accordance with his will, the desired action and resulting consequence, is certainly how he wished it to be, then, we sin because he desired us to do so to bring about the desired outcome.    To me he is just as much responsible for the cause of the sin as we are. 

That isn't about free-will, it's about cause of the sin.  He designed all things, sin included.   He designed us weak, we choose to sin, his will wants our will to choose to sin, he causes us to sin.  Looks simple enough to me.  He doesn't like us to sin, but he wants us to do so.

Otherwise, by our own free-will (which we don’t have) we could choose to do other than his will, and that is not to be.



This isn’t about ‘free-will’ it’s about....who causes what.....and to me if God is the cause of all things, let’s pin the tail on the donkey rather than give him an out and say he doesn’t 'cause' us to sin.  I see it as he did, does, will..etc.

I need desperately to understand this very thing, this is my crux,  because you have no idea the hatred I have for God right now and the teetering back and forth on the loss of belief that he even exists.  Here’s why.   I’m putting blame on God for historical vile acts from way back when, to now, to yonder and I see it as he’s guilty of it all.  To say he doesn’t cause mankind to sin and bring about vile acts and their domino consequences is hollow, that he doesn’t manipulate the lives of so many humans from some to good guys to others are bad guys, is simply non-sense to me.  I see it as he certainly does.   He will have mercy and whom he chooses and that includes giving knowledge, giving lifes good things whether they realize it or not now in this age or the next.   Others are instruments of destruction.   At his will.    That’s fine to say he has mercy on those who are blessed, I’m sure they feel that way if they ever have the thought in their head.    But what about those who aren’t so blessed?   What about those who he’s manipulated their lives in such a way that there are no ‘bennies’, just hard times from birth to death.   Where’s the mercy for them.   There are people who simply don't understand their own choices that cause actions that results in long-lasting hardship(s) directly for themselves and others who are in their circle of life.  If God is brave, let him......give them...... understanding that they HAVE NO CHOICE but to carry out his orders, rather than they be in constant wonderment as to why things are they way they are and just exactly who's in charge.

It’s all connected, at least to me, I just can’t see the lines to the dots.

Apology for the wall of words, just trying to express myself in a cordial yet continuous manner to get to the root of this deep valley.
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lilitalienboi16

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Re: is it important to change mind about freewill ?
« Reply #35 on: November 19, 2011, 10:13:54 PM »

Douge6:

“Remember we are all volunteers,  WE DO CHOOSE to DO our sins,

God doesn't FORCE us to sin.”




John from Kentucky:

 “In all things, big and small, good and evil, life and death---

God rules and is the Cause behind everything that is.

There is a scripture that says birds do not die without His say.

Another scripture says the hairs on our head are numbered by God.

Those two scriptures show that

God micromanages all things to the smallest degree.”



Dave in Tenn:

Our choices are all caused by something or someone.  

And even the causes are caused through things we have no control over in our pasts and our present--our ancestry, our geography, history, etc. etc. etc.  

These causes stretch all the way back to the Mind of God

in creation.  And He knows the end from the beginning.  He is the first 'cause' and continues to 'cause'.”



Douge6:

God being in control of all things, is actually the bottom line,

in the proper understanding of how events transpire in this universe.”




John Michael:
 

God is responsible for evil, for good, for the way the world is,

for the way people are, and for everything.

God doesn't make man sin.”




Douge6:

God

has created an individual path for us all to walk in,  This individual path includes sinful hearts, hearts that are at our core, hearts that we need to have revealed.  Exposed. Changed. Re-created like to be like Jesus heart.

Through the process of having us make choices,

even choices that could not be chosen in any other way,

is God's way of making us into His image.”




Kat,

from Ray:

God determined

who we were, when we would be born, where, and under what circumstances.

What sins we would commit, what sins we wouldn’t commit,

it’s all predetermined of God. Why? Because God is sovereign,

that’s why. He is in control of everything!”

=========-------------==========



and yet "god doesn't force us to sin" or "make man sin".........................>?



Because of our exceedingly weak hearts that God created (responsible!) when we sin we absolutely wanted to commit the sin in our hearts (We are accountable.)

There was no forcing on God's part because when we actually did commit the act of sinning, we absolutely wanted to do it. It was really us doing the sin, US making that choice, we really wanted it! We are that spiritually weak. It takes God's strength, His spirit, for us to do any good because without Him, we basically volunteer to sin, "sinning machines!"

An example I once heard and think is powerful is this;

We are like the earth, the earth is void of light on its own. If you take away the sun, the earth is dark. The earth doesn't produce any light on it's own, its rather the sun that shines the light into the earth, illuminating every dark place. Just like if you remove God's light from our hearts, we are dark.

« Last Edit: November 19, 2011, 10:19:59 PM by lilitalienboi16 »
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1 Cor 1:10 "Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment."

DougE6

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Re: is it important to change mind about freewill ?
« Reply #36 on: November 19, 2011, 11:54:32 PM »

lilitalienboi;

IMHO wonderful summation, your paragraph. Hits the nail on the head.

gk. Your deep questions about the goodness of God grieves me. It grieves me because you are struggling so mightily and I like you. I like you even though I have never met you. Your questions are actually going deep into what the character of God is. You would only be very angry at God, if you felt He was unfair or unreasonable or mean. How do you know that He is? I ask that very sincerely. You and me and none of us have seen the outcome of God's plans.

lets agree that God is making a family. Lets say in making a family Jesus is the prototype. Lets say since God gave Jesus everything He is and has, the inheritance that is awaiting the "finished products" meaning when God is done creating us into His image is UNIMAGINABLY WONDERFUL AND BEYOND WHAT CAN POSSIBLY BE IMAGINED.

We all need faith that what is currently happening and what has happened on this earth is absolutely necessary, that this is the best way for God to accomplish this task. We just have to believe that. 

I could produce a bunch of quick responses and they may be just too trite for you, even if they work for me. I could say that we all, the human race, NEED to have great evil being committed so we all could know collectivelly, just how great evil can be. I think that may be very important before we become what we are to be.  We may need to know how deep forgiveness and love can be to forgive and reconcile any and all atrocities ever committed, both the victim and the perpetrator.

Please also, do not forget, that in the person of Jesus, as Jesus was emptied of divine powers and was a man, that God is NOT asking us to go through anything that He Himself was not willing to experience! The scriptures testify that Jesus felt and experienced the worst of the pains and sorrows of this earth...so how could one really claim God is unfair?  If He is eventually going to put full divine nature in you as in Jesus, with all that implies, and He also suffered greatly to do this, is the pain of this earth something we can blame Him or hold against Him if He knows it is necessary to get us there? What/where His is now?!

Paul said..these light and momentary sufferings are not worthy of being compared to the glory that will be revealed in us! NOT WORTHY. And how much pain did Paul suffer? More than probably anyone on this earth has, ever.

We all need faith in the goodness of God. We all need faith in our destiny.  The world, the flesh and the devil conspire to rob us of our faith. Do not let that happen to you.  Forget about worrying about free will and causation. worry about something much deeper. Your judging of the motives of God! That kind of thinking without faith as we live in this pain stricken world, will leave you hopeless and angry and bitter. Do not let that happen to you.  Let the plans of God and faith in His goodness soften your heart, as we all need soft hearts.  Please don't fall into the trap of the athiest, the athiest believes He is better than God, as He would NEVER subject the human race to what the human race has been subjected to. They feel more righteous than God. That is not a good place to be.

God is the only one that can use evil without impure motive. He is the only one who can make everyone whole and complete and completely Filled with God Himself, so God can be ALL in ALL. Pain is absolutely essential for the spiritual growth that God intends for us to experience.  You MUST rise above the world, the flesh and the Deivl. You must!
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Kat

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Re: is it important to change mind about freewill ?
« Reply #37 on: November 20, 2011, 12:32:09 AM »


Hi Gary,

I can understand that this is harder for some to comprehend than others. I have been very blessed to be able to accept this idea rather easily of God's sovereignty and our not having free will. But here are a few places where Ray speaks on some of the point you mentioned, maybe something will just come together and help your understanding a bit.

http://bible-truths.com/email2.htm#freewill2 -------------------------

There are MANY things that God does that we as mortals are  NOT TO IMITATE! God "makes war in righteousness"--we cannot. God KILLS and brings back to life again--we cannot.

Because God has chosen to create and USE evil for a divine purpose, we have no right to judge God as BEING evil. He is not. Neither is it a SIN on God's part to make mortals WHO DO SIN. A sin is a mistake, a lack, lawlessness. God is NONE OF THESE!

Your suggestion that because God chooses to NOT DO or NOT BE certain things, that that somehow LIMITS Him is ludicrous. Listen carefully to what I am about to say:  A Being (God) Who has the POWER AND ABILITY to be and do ANYTHING AND EVERYTHING HE WISHES, IS NOT LIMITED!!!  The fact that God chooses to not only tell the truth, but is, in fact, the embodiment of TRUTH, and never lies, in no way diminishes God or limits God.  I am surprised that you cannot see and understand this?  God IS AND DOES everything that He wishes--that, my friend, is TOTAL SOVEREIGNTY!!!


http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,4702.0.html ------------

OF COURSE we have a "choice." We, in fact, have made MILLIONS of our OWN choices. Every choice you make is YOUR CHOICE.  Whose do think it is?  When you decide to have apple pie for desert, who makes that choice?  If you change your mind and decide that you will rather have cherry pie, who changed your mind and made the new choice? Did that choice come out of SOME ONE ELSE'S mind and mouth?  Did something FORCE YOU AGAINST YOUR WILL to choose apple pie when you really really wanted blueberry pie? Well?  No, of course not. You CHOSE which desert YOU preferred, did you not? Yes, of course you did. Can a "robot" choose which kind of pie it wants? No, of course not, and even if it did, it wouldn't have been based on a thousand and one emotions, circumstances, appearances, price, past memories of which pie taste the best, etc. etc., etc., etc., etc., would it?  We make all our own choices and we make them from our heart. We always choose that which WE prefer to choose. God does not FORCE US AGAINST OUR WILL to choose something we do not want to choose, and that is true for choices we really don't want to make in the first place, but circumstances dictate that we must or should.      

        Now it is true that the final choice we made is the ONLY choice that we could have made, but so what?  It is, after all, THE ONE WE WANTED TO MAKE.  Can you now understand it?

        Do you still think you are a robot?  I hope not. It takes a lot of thought and meditation to wrap your mind around this powerful spiritual truth.


http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,2477.0.html ------

"Free Will" does not exist because it is a physiologicaly impossibility and the Scriptures CONDEMN any such vanity-crazed
idea.  Have you ever heard of the law of "cause and effect."  It means for every effect there is a CAUSE.  This IS scientific. Therefore all of your thoughts and actions ARE CAUSED by something. Usually something that you are not even aware of, but being caused nonetheless.  This "cause" is what is responsible for your thoughts and actions. And once something is "caused" to happen, it could not have been otherwise.  God is the FIRST CAUSE of all law and matter.  I use the Scriptures to prove to Christians that they have no free will, as they claim to actually believe the Scriptures.  I would not use the Scriptures to prove to an athiestic evolutionary scientist that he has no free will. There I would use scientific law.


http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,4680.0.html -------------

Of course we have a will and of course we make millions of our own choices, but the fact of the matter is, neither is FREE to think or do anything that is not first CAUSED BY SOMETHING.  We "sin" because the pulls and trials, and tests, and temptations of our environment CAUSE our hearts to desire and commit sin, because our "deceitful hearts" (Jer. 17:17) ARE NOT FREE FROM CAUSALITY TO RESIST SIN.  The ONLY way to resist sin is by the power of God's Holy Spirit, and if it takes the power of God's Holy Spirit to resist sin, then obviously we do not have a free will which can decide to do in on its own.  It is a humbling experience to realize that God Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth is actually, and factually, and literally, more powerful than we are. NO MAN will tell God He doesn't want to repent when God tells him: "NOW is the time for you to repent, and YOU WILL REPENT"!!


http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,1493.0.html --------

God plainly speaks at times and at others He speaks in mysteries. Here is a plain statement from God that explains the mystrious ones:  "For My thought ARE NOT your thoughts, neither are your ways My ways, says the Lord.  For as the heavens are higher than the earth, SO [in like manner] are My ways HIGHER than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts"  (Isa. 55:8-9).
 
Now there IS the answer, yet we will not accept that answer because we don't understand that answer.  Why then do you and most of the world have a problem with God and His operation of things, and I don't?  Why do you use the "CONTRADICTION" and I don't.  Is there any way to bridge this dichotomy of God's thoughts and our thoughts?  Yes there is:  "Let this MIND BE IN Y-O-U, which was also in Christ Jesus..."  (Phil. 2:5).
 
Without the mind of God, we will never understand the spiritual things of God.  They will ALWAYS seem like "foolishness" to the carnal mind. "But the natural man receives NOT the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are SPIRITUALLY DISCERNED"  (I Cor. 2:14).
 
As it is absolutely Scripturally true that man has no free will, and therefore is always subject to the higther powers that be, when people begin to see this truth, they often balk at it and feel that God is unfair and that man is being judged for things that God MADE HIM DO AGAINST HIS WILL.  When in reality, NOTHING COULD BE FURTHER FROM THE TRUTH!!
 
Most of the human race has always believed that it possesses "free will."  And so as long as any man believes this falsehood, he is operating in his own little world with absolutely no grudge against God for his personal decisions.  But when he begins to see that he has no free will, he then does begin to think that he has a justifiable grudge against God for MAKING HIM SIN.  He was wrong when he thought that he had free will, and he is just as wrong when he thinks that the only alternative is that God MAKES HIM SIN AGAINST HIS OWN WILL.
 
I have stated many times that God DOES NOT MAKE OR FORCE ANYONE TO SIN AGAINST HIS OWN WILL--MAN DESIRES TO SIN, WANTS TO SIN, AND THEREFORE VOLUNTEERS TO SIN.  God did not FORCE or MAKE Eve eat of the forbidden fruit. Her own DESIRES caused her to lust and eat of the forbidden fruit.
And so the real question is: "Does God have the right to make mankind subject to the desires of their own heart?"  Think about it, as I have, for a few thousand hours, and maybe God will grant to you the spiritual understanding of this matter.
 
Hundreds of totally deceived and spiritually blind Christians have told me that: "God does not want robots to love Him--He desires people to love Him by their OWN FREE WILL."  Oh really?  And can the carnal mind indeed love God by its own nature; its own heart; its own desires?  NO IT CAN'T.  And so the very thing that Christians demand as necessary for our love for God to be genuine, is the very thing that totally disqualifies it from being genuine.  The natural mind is totally incapable of  loving God:  "For the carnal mind is enmity [deep-seated HATRED] AGAINST GOD..." (Rom. 8:7).
 
It all starts with God, not with us:  "We love Him [God] because He FIRST LOVED US"  (I John 4:19).
 
God created mankind spiritually WEAK--subject to the lusts and sins of his own heart, so that man will learn that he CANNOT love God first;  he cannot obey spiritual laws and commandments;  he cannot please God;  he cannot accomplish anything of lasting value through his wicked and deceitful heart. (Jer. 17:9).  And therefore God's ways will justify His means.  The rewards and the blessings are not even to be compared with the glory that God is creating in the human race (Rom. 8:18).
 
And so here is the answer to your question:
 
BEFORE spiritual conversion man FALSELY THINKS that he has free will and is for all intent and purpose a god unto himself.
 
AFTER spiritual conversion man will be eternally thankful that God never gave us such a foolish concept as "free will," or he would never ever reach the marvelous heights of power and glory that God has in mind for him.
 
And presently, you and some few others, are in between these two extremes of human understanding. I will pray for God to grand to you a "spirit of wisdom" so that you will comprehend and apprehend the marvelous and mysterious working of our God.

God be with you,
Ray

« Last Edit: November 20, 2011, 12:34:31 AM by Kat »
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cjwood

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Re: is it important to change mind about freewill ?
« Reply #38 on: November 20, 2011, 01:18:33 AM »

i was thinking about this the other day after reading the original post and replies.  thinking about it as i was driving along the texas hill country.  thinking about the most common denominator in all of the replies, and the truths they conveyed.  then i thought, no matter who, what, when, where, how, why, etc... everything we do or say, wear or eat, and all the rest of it; it happens as it does because He has known all along that it would happen that way.  from the beginning.  even that we might wear a blue shirt on whichever day we wear a blue shirt.  ya, He knew we would.  our Creator is in all the details.  whether we see it or not that way.

claudia
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odading

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Re: is it important to change mind about freewill ?
« Reply #39 on: November 20, 2011, 07:46:38 AM »

Douge6:

“Remember we are all volunteers,  WE DO CHOOSE to DO our sins,

God doesn't FORCE us to sin.”
For the purple one, within my own understanding.... that's what I call : "God let it happen".

What do you think about this ?

As also in my analogy, although it's time for the dog to eat - and I've prepared his food, but when he doesn't want to eat - then I don't force feeding him... and let him choose not to eat.

Quote
God rules and is the Cause behind everything that is.


Our choices are all caused by something or someone.


As in my understanding, no matter what I choose will be always under His LAW-cause&effect ?


Quote
God is responsible for evil, for good, for the way the world is,

for the way people are, and for everything.
this one is difficult for me... as it is still hard for me to have to believe that God's responsible for what human do ... :)

God doesn't need to tell Adam not to eat the fruit - because whatever it is, Adam will eat the fruit. But still God told Adam not to eat the fruit... why ? IMHO He wants human to (also) be responsible.

Quote
it’s all predetermined of God. Why? Because God is sovereign,
and yet "god doesn't force us to sin" or "make man sin".........................>?
The word "predetermined" also difficult for me to understand.

A. Is it because He knew - that human will sin, but He let it happen
B. Or is it because He deliberately made it - that human will sin

I realized both A and B doesn't matter much....
but oh well.... I'm just human who curious ..:)

in B is in Rome and A is more like in Jeremiah. (in the potter&vessel example)

For all my lovely and kind responder, thank you very much once again.

regards,
reko.
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