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Author Topic: is it important to change mind about freewill ?  (Read 11805 times)

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odading

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Re: is it important to change mind about freewill ?
« Reply #60 on: November 24, 2011, 02:58:01 PM »

If YOU caused something to happen, wouldn't YOU know in advance that it would?
when I give a food to my cat ---> this in my understanding that "I cause something to happen". Before the cat do anything to his food, I already know that the cat won't eat ---> this in my understanding that "I foreknown".

So, when I bind the cat's mouth first - then I give a food to my cat ---> and I say to my friend : "look... although I give a food to this cat, he won't eat it" .... it's NOT foreknown in my understanding ... :)

When Jesus tell "Peter will deny" :
it's not God made Peter to deny first - then God make a danger situation for Peter.
But God know that His LAW-cause&effect will make a danger situation first, then before Peter commit his act of denial - God foreknown that Peter will deny.
And for me this is sooo sovereign ... :)

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We can't do anything without Him.  We don't exist without Him.  That's what Sovereignty means to me.  
I agree with this.

Each moment in my life, past-present-future - I do believe that there is ONE thing I'm very sure about God sovereignty... His Grace of life.

I won't be able to type this now - if God's WILL that I die now instantly.
The things I have - the plan to do something for tomorrow, etc - will be NOTHING without His Grace of life.

His Grace IS NOT : I see (because He loves me), other blind (because He loves him not) - I have (because He loves me), other have not (because He loves him not), it's not like that for me ---> as even in my deep trouble - still I think I should be grateful for His Love : the grace of life.


So the question is, how come mr.X can have the same believe of that kind Sovereignty in purple while at the same time mr.X don't believe that God personally infiltrate each human of their daily activities in exact second ?

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I'm inclined to leave the thread open for a while longer, but we're reaching the end of what we are here to do, and able to do.
Dave, I would like to thank you very much for your time, enlightenment, patience, respond to me and the space you gave in this forum.

regards,
odading.
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odading

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Re: is it important to change mind about freewill ?
« Reply #61 on: November 24, 2011, 04:01:12 PM »

So God has mercy upon whom He will have mercy and whom He wills, He hardens. But when I tell people that this is how God operates, they find fault with it. They say that isnít fair. They say we are mere puppets if this is the way God operates. How can God blame and punish people for doing what God Himself caused them to do in the first place?
Dear Kat,

I still haven't got an answer about the potter&vessel in Jeremiah.

At one time I will suddenly speak concerning a nation or kingdom, that I will pluck up and break down and destroy it; And if [the people of] that nation concerning which I have spoken turn from their evil, I will relent and reverse My decision concerning the evil that I thought to do to them.

At another time I will suddenly speak concerning a nation or kingdom, that I will build up and plant it; And if they do evil in My sight, obeying not My voice, then I will regret and reverse My decision concerning the good with which I said I would benefit them.

Now therefore say to the men of Judah and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem, Thus says the Lord: Behold, I am shaping evil against you and devising a plan against you. Return now each one from his evil way; reform your [accustomed] ways and make your [individual] actions good and right.

But they will say, That is in vain! For we will walk after our own devices, and we will each do as the stubbornness of his own evil heart dictates.


Do you believe and sure - all the Christian freewiller (even after they heard the words in purple) have said and/or will say something like the verse above in red ?


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Can we believe that Jesus could have told Peter the following:

"And Jesus said unto him [Peter] Verily I say unto you, That this day, even in this night, before the cock crow twice, thou shall deny me thrice, but then again, maybe you wonít deny Me three times, seeing that you have a free will that does not need to deny Me even once. It doesnít depend on what I say, or circumstances brought about by My Father, or what God declares, but rather on your own free will."
Well I don't ... :)

the same that I don;t believe Jesus could have told Peter the following:
"And Jesus said unto him [Peter] Verily I say unto you, That this day, even in this night, before the cock crow twice, thou shall deny me thrice, because God made you to say that regardless you are under oppression or not.  ;D

or :
because God made you are under oppression, then God will put fear on you - God made you are afraid to go to jail - THEN finally God made you deny and then God will make you cry, it's not you who cry faithfully - it's just God who made you cry

but for me it is possible :
because you'll be under oppression, you are afraid that you're going to jail - so you will deny me.  ;D

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It is blasphemy.
Is the orange one which still possible for me - blasphemy ??

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It is idiocy to state that man has a free will that is not made or caused to do as it does
Dear Kat, below is my first post - try to explain that even freewiller has a possibility to realize everything he does will be subjected to His LAW-cause&effect :

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So freewill is always under His LAW-cause&effect.
"god" in people who decided what to do and it will be always subjected to His LAW-cause&effect
But now I know, I can not call that is a freewill. It's just a free will....

and if God's WILL to make others to think it's idiocy then it will be :)

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God knows in advance that something WILL be a certain way, and yet it doesnít have to be that way?
God said that in Jeremiah.

Finally, is it important to change mind about freewill ?
How important ? and Why ?

Thank you very much, Kat.
For your patience, kind, time, and responds.

regards,
odading.
« Last Edit: November 24, 2011, 04:11:40 PM by odading »
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lilitalienboi16

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Re: is it important to change mind about freewill ?
« Reply #62 on: November 24, 2011, 06:27:02 PM »

If YOU caused something to happen, wouldn't YOU know in advance that it would?
when I give a food to my cat ---> this in my understanding that "I cause something to happen". Before the cat do anything to his food, I already know that the cat won't eat ---> this in my understanding that "I foreknown".

That is wrong, you can give your cat the food but if he doesn't smell or see it, it won't cause him to want to eat it. Your cats desire to want to eat food is firstly and foremost caused by his apatite in which his desire to eat certain foods is controlled by sophisticated inner biological workings that you as a human have no control over yet which God created and has full control over. Furthermore, it is possible that if your cat were hungry enough, that despite the fact of him not liking the cat food (which I'm assuming is the case based on your example and conclusion.) that he would still eat it, so as a human, you foreknew nothing and were in fact wrong.

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So, when I bind the cat's mouth first - then I give a food to my cat ---> and I say to my friend : "look... although I give a food to this cat, he won't eat it" .... it's NOT foreknown in my understanding ... :)



How is it not foreknown he won't eat it? You bound his mouth, of course he can't eat it. That is DEFINITELY foreknown.

You're not making sense, sorry to be blunt but I've been patient in just not saying anything directly to you because you are very contradictive but... sorry, You seem to be ignoring everything everyone is telling you.

Yes it's foreknown that your cat won't eat his food if you bind his mouth. You are forcing him not to be able to eat. That is a CAUSE, YOUR FORCE (of perhaps the use of a rope to tie his mouth shut), which provents him from eating.You know he won't eat before you even place the food infront of him because his mouth is bound shut. You could even ask your friend if the cat will eat the food and your friend will say; "No he won't because you tied his mouth shut." Is your friend a magician now too?

All that aside, it is dangerous to use humanly interactions as a comparison to God and His ways, not saying it can't be done, but in your case, your example is flawed, at least in your conclusion.

>.>
« Last Edit: November 24, 2011, 06:39:18 PM by lilitalienboi16 »
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1 Cor 1:10 "Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment."

Revilonivek

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Re: is it important to change mind about freewill ?
« Reply #63 on: November 24, 2011, 07:11:19 PM »

From all the conversations about  will,  IT does show how well God knows humans..extremely well. Too well that he knows what we'll do or react  or what it takes to accomplish in certain situations and so on. HE knows his humans. After all he did create us... He should know his creations. How they function, through and through.

You made an excellent point about what God said to Jeremiah...IT does indicate that we do have a role to play when it comes to God's own law, cause and effect. He is hinting that we do have a power to change from the original path of cause and effect path. We can all accept that God is the ultimate causer of everything we experience. IT's our heart that needs to learn to do what's good and morally right and ignore the carnally minded heart that humans possess before knowing God.  I feel that understanding and knowing God is essential to our spiritual development... and everything, such as this.. would make sense... its' just a matter of clicking.

My quest is to know God.. It still hasn't clicked for me yet.. Ive read about what he's done. It is just not enough to really know God. Does anyone know who God is? Be nice if anyone does. Everyone can say about what he's done. That's easy. But, really... WHO IS GOD. How do we envision him? How do we understand God as God? Is he pure energy that is required by everything to function and nothing without it can function? What if Energy is God? or maybe he is even greater than Energy.. I cannot fathom who God is.. I cannot say I know God unless I can understand God.... WHO is God? I just wish everything would just make sense.... and CLICK.... It just hasn't yet.. it's soo frustrating... anyway.. just my 0.02 cents :) sorry about the rambling.....

Kind regards,

Denise
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Dave in Tenn

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Re: is it important to change mind about freewill ?
« Reply #64 on: November 25, 2011, 03:07:18 AM »

Cause and effect are always in play and sovereign God is the ultimate 'causer/placer' of everything.

The sovereignty of God is sure.  It seems to me to make absolutely no difference whether  God's 'causing' a particular act is 6 billion years old, two-thousand years old, or 30 seconds old.  The 'effect' is sure.  I don't believe anybody has access to that information in all instances.  It's not against the forum rules to persist in disagreement with statements made by members of the forum.    

But this does not mean that God is 'winging it' or making it up as he goes along.  The foreknowledge of God makes it impossible for anything to happen differently than the way He knew it would.  He knows the END FROM the BEGINNING.  He knows things from the Foundation of the world.  Of course the choices of each man (caused and foreknown) become part of the 'cause' to produce the 'effect' in the future from that point.  This doesn't dillute the will of God, but amplify it.  

You may not believe that God is choosing one individual over another at any moment, but Scripture is full of examples where He does.  It's lip-service to say God is Sovereign yet 'scold Him' for doing what He does.

So I see you somewhere 'in the middle'.  And if you haven't been just jerking us around, you've learned a few things, hopefully.  To get back to your original question:  It's helpful to understand that free-will doesn't exist because will is not free.  It's 'worship in Spirit and in Truth' to recognize what is true about the sovereignty of God.  It is impossible to learn what is true about the Sovereignty of God without much scriptural exposure--and that takes time, and more than time.  It is not necessary for you to 'imagine' the way God causes the same as any other person may 'imagine' it, providing you don't break what IS true and discernable.  You have as much a right to be wrong as any other imagineer--including me.   :D

Thanks also for your patience.  I think we've gone as far as we can and maybe farther than we ought.          
« Last Edit: November 25, 2011, 11:58:33 PM by Dave in Tenn »
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Heb 10:32  But you must continue to remember those earlier days, how after you were enlightened you endured a hard and painful struggle.
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