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Author Topic: is it important to change mind about freewill ?  (Read 11804 times)

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odading

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is it important to change mind about freewill ?
« on: November 17, 2011, 02:49:18 PM »

Dear members,

Please first let me introduce you a bit of me.
I haven't baptized yet (there for I'm not truly Christian), I don't have any base from other religion, and I don't read Bible except when I need to read while having a discussion and finally I'm not from English speaking country and Christian majority country.

I've read "The Myth of "Free Will" Exposed - Part A", but not all - as the English is too hard for me which then made my headache ... :)

In short, I do believe about freewill.
bible-truths.com against it.

Below is a bit "story" about my understanding of freewill :

God made LAW - cause&effect.
By this law - He gave human a freewill.
Freewill is known only when human commit action.
So freewill is always under His LAW-cause&effect.

Of every people daily activities, it's not God personally Will - infiltrating human to act this or that - but "god" in people who decided what to do and it will be always subjected to His LAW-cause&effect.

IMHO, God not personally WILL which made me to decide to wear a blue shirt (rather than the white one), and get wet when out of house because it rains suddenly and I don't bring the umbrella, so I change the wet one to a white shirt.

One thing I do believe that it is God's Will.... : my life.
So in everything which happened to me, good or bad, happy or sad - I'm always trying to remember His Love, and be grateful for His Will that I'm still alive till the day and do daily activities. (everything I did, I possessed etc - is nothing by the time He take my life).

Another thing is when He personally Will to someone.
If I may say, something like miracle - Saulus for example,
or even me - when one day I'm baptized and become Christian... :)

There are some goodness I see in freewill.
people become responsible
people can not reason : "oh ... I'm a prostitute because God's Will"
people learn
people want to change to good
poeple can not judge other : "it's wasting time to preach this bad people - God's will they are bad"

So that's a little "story" of my understanding about freewill.

My question,
do I have to force this my understanding : "God gave me freewill and BE responsible !" to change to "I don;t have freewill, God gave me illusion power" - if so at least member of this Forum won't think that I'm wrong ?

and how do I even force it when the force itself is none in me because God's will ?
It is God's Will that I am wrong.

Any kind of respond will be greatly appreciated.
Thank you in advanced.

regards.
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octoberose

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Re: is it important to change mind about freewill ?
« Reply #1 on: November 17, 2011, 03:39:44 PM »

Welcome to the forum. We're glad to have you.
 I know others will write more eloquently than I to answer your questions and comments but I just wanted to let you know this is a great place to ask those questions. Your English is very good and I applaud your diligence in learning both another language, and being a seeker into the Truths of God.
 It's hard for us to not believe in free will when we feel that we are in control, that we are making the decisions. Most people do believe that, but most people are taking God's place in their lives. When you continue to read Ray's article you'll see that we make Choices and that is different than free will. Choices though, are caused by something, something that we have no control over, and that is part of the myth of free will. Even then, the Bible tells us that we are "called to account" for our actions, so what we do is very important. God doesn't "make us sin". We are sinning machines, we volunteer for it and He did make us with a sinful nature from the very beginning.
 God draws us to Himself, and the word draw actually means drags us. If He's drawing me, where's the free will?
 I have two golden retrievers. They make choices all day long (Am I going to wait here on the deck, or am I going to chase that rabbit?) But their choices do not interfere with my will for them. I decide what they eat, when they eat, when they go to the doctors, I bring them to classes on doggy behavior. I give love, I give treats, I withhold treats, etc. Now, this example can only go so far because I am not Sovereign God, I am only human. But my dogs act the way we humans do- they respond to what they know within the life I have set up for them and the nature that God has given them. We're kind of like that.
 Ray also speaks on baptism. I struggle with that myself, but I know that no physical ritual makes us spiritual. When the Bible uses the word 'baptizo' it is speaking of immersion. The definition does not mean immersed in water, just immersed. They were immersed in the Holy Spirit and that is a work of God, not human hands. Yes, I am baptized, but that didn't "save me". That saving takes places over my life and into the next.
 Keep reading, keep asking. You'll see we like to wrestle with things on this forum. You are just like us, a creation of God and seeker so don't think you can't ask or that we judge you. Having you here is a gift.
 Have a lovely day,
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Extol

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Re: is it important to change mind about freewill ?
« Reply #2 on: November 17, 2011, 03:45:27 PM »

Hi Odading,
Free will is the freedom of humans to make choices that are not determined by prior causes or by divine intervention. By that definition, one does not even need to believe in God to see that there’s no such thing as free will!

Maybe there was no specific cause that day—the temperature, for example--that made you choose the blue shirt instead of the white one. But there are many causes for you having the shirts in the first place. Think of all the people that had a part in getting the shirt to you: farmer, cotton picker, salesman, truck driver, clerk, manager, cashier... You can start with the farmer. He wanted to grow cotton because he wanted to feed his family. He chose to grow cotton because he lives in a good climate for that. Then the people who bought his cotton bought it because they wanted to make shirts (because they wanted to feed their families). Go on and on down the line, and you’ll see there are many causes which brought you the shirt.

You can say more about this, too. Why do we wear shirts at all? Because we want to keep warm, and because we want to cover our nakedness. But why shirts? Why don’t we wear fish tanks? Because our bodies aren’t shaped to wear fish tanks. Why are our bodies shaped the way they are? Because that’s how GOD made them. You see all the causes?

To answer your question, YES, it is important that you understand God is sovereign. The most evil doctrine in the world—the belief in eternal torment—is justified by people who believe in free will, because they say it is not God doing the torturing. “People chose of their own free will to go there.” This is ridiculous nonsense, of course. Nobody would really choose to be burned in fire for a minute, not to mention forever! There are other reasons why free will can be dangerous. It can make you proud, and make you rely on your own limited abilities, and a number of other things.

Read the Bible—it doesn’t have to be English—and read Ray’s articles as much as you can, even if you do it slowly. In The Myth of Free Will you will find dozens of Scripture references that talk about this subject. Write down all of those verses and then look them up in your own language. You’ll see that God is truly sovereign. In due time, God will open your eyes to this Truth.

Kind regards.  ;)
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gmik

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Re: is it important to change mind about freewill ?
« Reply #3 on: November 17, 2011, 04:02:59 PM »

Welcome to the forum!!

I don't believe in free will but I get confused sometimes by the BIG questions (who do I marry) vs. little daily questions (white or blue shirt?)

Looking backwards at my life I see God's hand directing "life events" in my choices.  But we make a million tiny decisions each day that don't seem important at all.

It is easier for me to just pile all my decisions onto God's "shoulders" and let Him be responsible for me ;)

I also have trouble explaining any of this to my free willer friends.  They just don't want to "give up" any control and that is Pride!  They don't want to be robots...even tho scripture plainly states HE is the potter and we are the clay.

Anyway, you can get instant translation on the computer.  do you have access to that?  God Bless you on your journey to truth....and you are so right....It is God's will if you are wrong! :D

Hope you can understand this...if not...NO WORRIES!!
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DougE6

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Re: is it important to change mind about freewill ?
« Reply #4 on: November 17, 2011, 04:24:30 PM »

Hi Odading

I am sure others can do a much better job of explaining than I can, I will tell you my understanding, if I can get it into some words.

It is true that free will does not exist. Does this mean we can't preach to bad people? Or one can reason "I am a prostitute because it is Gods' will? I would answer No to the first and a very careful and qualified yes to the second, qualified Because she is still fully accountable!.

First of all, NONE of us know the future. NONE. We do not know which or how or if any of our plans will succeed, or which way God is going to take us. So we by "default" HAVE to do our best, if we want to achieve any purpose, support our famlies, learn something new, run a business, achieve, do a ministry, resist evil, etc... even though God has already determined what will happen. The Olympic athlete must always train and train, and practice and practice, even though God has determined already he would win the gold. Without this training the Gold Medalist would not win. SO our participation is required because WE DO NOT KNOW THE FUTURE. We can NEVER have an attitude or NOT trying, or "laissez faire" just because God causes it all.  Even though God may be the cause, we still have to put in the effort. Great tiring and profound struggle is what forges the character in us that God wants to achieve. So you are right,  that cause and effect is very important, a great teacher to us all, and it exists, but it is suboordinate to the even greater truth that God causes all.

As far as the prostitute? yes there is truth that the prostitute is fulfilling what God had foreordained to happen and what she should be, at least for a short while(we will not be sinners forever). But it does not mean that she can use that as an excuse, TO CONTINUE! NO, she can't. She/we are ALL ignorant of God and His ways and laws and Jesus for a while, but not forever! The prostitute has made hundreds of decisions, or her own will, (even though these willful decisions are caused by forces she may not even understand or be aware of) hundreds and hundreds of willful decisions to be and participate in what she is. In time God will take her out of this sinful lifestyle, he will change her HEART inside in the proper manner that she will learn to HATE and DESPISE the sins she is captured and enslaved too. She will repent of her individual voluntary participation in this lifestyle. Remember we are all volunteers,  WE DO CHOOSE to DO our sins, God doesn't FORCE us to sin.  So all, each of our lives WILL include a time in deep sin of some sorts, it is necessary for our spiritual development to go through it.  BUT THIS BRINGS UP AN OBLIGATION! THEOBLIGATION TO REPENT OF OUR WRONGDOING!

 We, if we know Jesus, we are TO HELP IN THIS REPENTANCE. to reach out and RESCUE by preaching and by acts of charity and help to be ambassadors of Christ to the prostitute. To have the Jesus IN US do THE WORKS THAT hE WOULD DO! Of course the harvest is always dictated by God.  We are merely laborers. But because we don't know the harvest, WHO IS GOING TO COME, we are to plant and till and do all we can to help others.  Just like the gold medalist trains. Just my understanding in a nut shell.
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Akira329

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Re: is it important to change mind about freewill ?
« Reply #5 on: November 17, 2011, 05:48:51 PM »

Hey Odading,
You said,
Quote
In short, I do believe about freewill.
bible-truths.com against it.

So why did you join this forum?

Did you come here expecting members to convince you to change your mind?
Were you hoping Ray would convince you?
If your not convinced, why join?

Quote
My question,
do I have to force this my understanding : "God gave me freewill and BE responsible !" to change to "I don;t have freewill, God gave me illusion power" - if so at least member of this Forum won't think that I'm wrong ?

and how do I even force it when the force itself is none in me because God's will ?
It is God's Will that I am wrong.

You would only change your mind about it so members don't think your wrong? What is that about? Never mind what God thinks!
You spent a great deal of time to explain your beliefs of freewill. Why? Why here?

You read part of the paper, what exactly are you struggling with? It seems like you just have to make a choice based on your statements.

My advice to you,
You ask yourself what would change your mind.

Antaiwan
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"Only a life lived for others is a life worthwhile"
-Albert Einstein
"Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends."
- Jesus

longhorn

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Re: is it important to change mind about freewill ?
« Reply #6 on: November 17, 2011, 07:12:57 PM »

I simply choose not to choose to make a choice whether I choose free will or not. That way the choice I choose leaves me with many more choices.to choose from.

Longhorn
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musicman

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Re: is it important to change mind about freewill ?
« Reply #7 on: November 17, 2011, 07:33:53 PM »

I on the other hand choose to will my-self against all bad choices that I would choose if I chose to do the bad things that made me will lots of evil choices.
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Revilonivek

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Re: is it important to change mind about freewill ?
« Reply #8 on: November 17, 2011, 08:26:08 PM »

The usage of words can be tricky and it can get slot of people upset. What ray is saying we do have a will but we do not have "free" will. I think it would help to know who God is really. Because once we do, everything would make sense.

Im thinking now what if God is energy itself? Its in us and around us. It has no beginning or end. It does not die. Its everywhere. We need energy to make evwrything in life function.  Mother nature all around us work according to law, cays and effect and energy is behind it as well. U remember the story of 10 plagues. The ree water, is prob red tide that comes every few years. Then theres frogs. It died, then theres gnats. Then theres locust that eat gnats. locusts are unclean animals and can get into evwrything. Including food. And so on. They have this tradition where their first borns get extra servings of food that  their younger siblings. Tha ia prob why the firstborns die. They are too much of diseased food that locusts inflicted on. Its cause and effect thing. So what if
God is energy itself? It can't be destroyed, nor has beginning nor end but it gives life, to something and can do cauae and effect controlling everything including mother nature because obviously God used mother nature against the egyptians who refused to let his people go. Energy is what gives life, takes life, creates everything and there is not anything that wasnt made of energy? Thoughts?
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Dave in Tenn

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Re: is it important to change mind about freewill ?
« Reply #9 on: November 17, 2011, 08:46:06 PM »

It's much easier to understand if you remove 'free' from 'free-will'.  Every choice we make has a cause.  The cause may be as insignificant as 'I want to wear the white shirt today.'  Or it may be as important as 'I was born in my country and speak this language, therefor I cannot be in another country speaking a different language without emigrating and learning.'

We have laws, and we obey them for REASONS.  We also disobey them for reasons.  These reasons are 'causes' which rule our will and make it not 'free'.  

Our choices are all caused by something or someone.  And even the causes are caused through things we have no control over in our pasts and our present--our ancestry, our geography, history, etc. etc. etc.  These causes stretch all the way back to the Mind of God in creation.  And He knows the end from the beginning.  He is the first 'cause' and continues to 'cause'.  

The WILL of man is not an illusion.  Thinking that will is FREE is the illusion.  It cannot be 'free' and 'caused' at the same time.  It's always caused, and never free.  

You ask if it is important.  It is important if you desire to understand scripture and the nature of God.  It is important if you want to find your place in the universe.  This is HIS world.  We are only creatures.  If you want to know only what shirt to wear today, pick whichever you want.  Maybe you can also understand that 'wanting' is also a cause, and that 'wanting' is also caused.

Take the advise above and study the article with the Scripture in your own language.  Many people struggle with this--some for a long time.  Don't be discouraged.

Good to meet you.  

« Last Edit: November 17, 2011, 10:02:19 PM by Dave in Tenn »
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Heb 10:32  But you must continue to remember those earlier days, how after you were enlightened you endured a hard and painful struggle.

longhorn

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Re: is it important to change mind about freewill ?
« Reply #10 on: November 17, 2011, 09:52:55 PM »

Not real sure I would choose Mine or Musicmans choices.  However, if one should choose those choices, feel free (will) to choose the best choice.

Longhorn
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DougE6

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Re: is it important to change mind about freewill ?
« Reply #11 on: November 17, 2011, 11:49:00 PM »

Odading,

God being in control of all things, is actually the bottom line, in the proper understanding of how events transpire in this universe. That is what is meant by, "there is no free will" What John said about us being clay is right from the scriptures. Dave brought up a really good point in pointing out the difference between "will" and "free will". No one, no one, except a Looney tunes, would deny that we each  have a will, and that will does makes millions of choices throughout our lifetime. Is this decision making process free from cause? From God? That is the real question.

Interestingly, many scientists do not believe in free will. Many scientists who do not believe in spiritual things are of the opinion that all our decisions must be predetermined, since the brain being the source of decisions, that brain being in compliance with cause and effect, with natural laws, cannot operate outside of natural laws, so we can always trace the effect, the decision, to a cause. They believe if we know all the causes at any given time, we can predict the effect(the decision) with certainty.

I think that last line, is close to what Ray has written about choice. Since we are responders to causes, and since the strongest cause or causes will compel the choice(our will), then since God can orchestrate the causes, He can control the effects. 

However, Ray is much different than the scientists in that He does believe in the spiritual, in God. And He and most of us here at Bible truths, do believe there are spiritual causes that are unseen, and these spiritual forces are all at the ultimate control of God.

How do these spiritual causes effect the brain, which is substance, matter? No one really knows, but spiritual forces do.  I personally am of the opinion that the uncertainty of quantum mechanics and the duality of matter, being both wave and particle, is the key to the doorway, but that is not in view in this discussion, it is simply said that I do believe science will increasingly show over time that that the observer, the conscious mind, does effect matter at the quantum level. Many experiments have already shown this. And this is enough to show that spiritual forces can influence matter, which can influence decisions. OK enough of that for now.

It is possible  people may misunderstand that my continual? exhortations to be righteous, to encourage ourselves to DO things; to be in conflict and indicate I believe in free will. This is not the case. I prefer to let my confidence in God being in control of EVERYTHING to be an anchor for my faith, but then I want to seek and search and follow Him with all my heart.  I can think of NO other way to be, to grow in Him. I do things that the scriptures tell me to do, and I encourage others to do so, too! I personally leave the parsing of each and every individual cause to God alone, and watch over ONLY my own heart and actions. I want to be changed by Godly causes, like scripture, like by a renewed mind, by the Spirit of God, by the washing of the Word,  by following the admonitions of scripture by delighting myself in the Lord, by seeking His resurrection, to actually, somehow be an over comer.  I want Jesus to be manifest in me, I really do, and to the best of my ability I seek Him fearfully, meaning I know from experience how weak my flesh is, but I so want to be strong. So I TRY (in italics cause it is hard) to keep focused on my heart, yet I have the certain confidence of God being in control of everything that keeps me at great peace. Does this make sense?

Knowing God is in complete control is a bedrock, and it shows how little you are, in actuality.

I sense in you a desire to be righteous, and that it would be hard for you to understand how one can not believe in free will and yet still be accountable and feel the inner drive to obey and follow him, like one would do if you believed in free wills "accountability". Is that correct?.  So I have tried to give you a small glimpse of how I approach it. Others I am sure will have their own ways. Your fear actually has some validity, studies have shown. Recent studies have shown that if you convince experimental subjects that they have no free will, that their actions are not of themselves, they are less inclined to help others and become more aggressive!  So your anxiousness may be rooted in that, that you fear a temptation to become that way.  That is NOT the correct understanding of Gods Sovereignty. It is not a license to disobey and be sinful.  It is an anchor for the soul to give you peace in an uncertain world. It shows you are the clay and He is the Potter. It is still incumbent on you to obey Him, to obey the scriptures, to do good works, and then, give Him all the praise for giving you the strength to do so.  None of the admonitions and accountabilities of scripture are removed or made invalid by the fact that "free" will does not actually exist.

Doug
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odading

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Re: is it important to change mind about freewill ?
« Reply #12 on: November 18, 2011, 04:38:07 AM »

Wow.... I'm touched there are so many responds from all loving member here.
Thank you... thank you very much in deed to all my responder.

I'm very sorry I can't respond to each respond, but in general I learn and understand about my topic in progress because of all my responder.

I know now, make choices is different than freewill.
Will is a will itself but can not called "free".

I decide what they eat, when they eat, when they go to the doctors, I bring them to classes on doggy behavior. I give love, I give treats, I withhold treats, etc.
But what about if I prepare his food, and he doesn't want to eat the food prepared in that exact time ? Is it the dog's freewill ? or is it the dog's choice (or just Will) ?

You can say more about this, too. Why do we wear shirts at all? Because we want to keep warm, and because we want to cover our nakedness. But why shirts? Why don’t we wear fish tanks? Because our bodies aren’t shaped to wear fish tanks. Why are our bodies shaped the way they are? Because that’s how GOD made them. You see all the causes?
Yes.... as in my first post I quoted that my "freewill" will always subjected to His LAW-cause&effect. But then now I know, I can not call that a freewill - it's a choice or just a Will.

Quote
There are other reasons why free will can be dangerous. It can make you proud, and make you rely on your own limited abilities, and a number of other things.
To be honest, when I thought it's a freewill God gave me - it did make me "proud" :).
But "proud" in different sense... "proud" that God trusted me by giving freewill and I need to be responsible of that... I need to "warn" myself that whatever my choice to do is will have effect.

It is easier for me to just pile all my decisions onto God's "shoulders" and let Him be responsible for me ;)
This is one reason that I like to have "freewill" ... :).
Every result which I did is not God's responsibility.... with my "freewill" I choose to eat too much then get stomachache is not God's responsibility... :).

Quote
I also have trouble explaining any of this to my free willer friends.  They just don't want to "give up" any control and that is Pride!  They don't want to be robots...even tho scripture plainly states HE is the potter and we are the clay.
Do the one who admit there is no freewill - must admit also that they are just robot ? puppet of God ?

It is true that free will does not exist. Does this mean we can't preach to bad people? Or one can reason "I am a prostitute because it is Gods' will? I would answer No to the first and a very careful and qualified yes to the second, qualified Because she is still fully accountable!.
But how can people be responsible if everything is God's Will and everything is His responsibility ?

Quote
So we by "default" HAVE to do our best, if we want to achieve any purpose, support our famlies, learn something new, run a business, achieve, do a ministry, resist evil, etc... even though God has already determined what will happen. The Olympic athlete must always train and train, and practice and practice, even though God has determined already he would win the gold. Without this training the Gold Medalist would not win. SO our participation is required because WE DO NOT KNOW THE FUTURE. We can NEVER have an attitude or NOT trying, or "laissez faire" just because God causes it all.  Even though God may be the cause, we still have to put in the effort.
This is a very difficult "situation" for me.. :)

How "our participation" be required, when the participation itself is not because us, but God's Will ?

How an athlete must always train and train, while actually there is no "must" but God's Will who put "the must" or "not must" ?

We can NEVER have an attitude or NOT trying - how possible someone is "trying" or "not trying" if God Himself Will this athlete to "trying or NOT trying" ?

Quote
As far as the prostitute? yes there is truth that the prostitute is fulfilling what God had foreordained to happen and what she should be, at least for a short while(we will not be sinners forever).

"for a short while"... what about if she died as a prostitute ?  From Ray's website, I learn that all human will not be sinner forever... it happen either maybe during someone still live or after he died. - doesn't matter much because whatever it is, she will not be sinner after the judgement ?

To be honest, on the contrary I can not think that God personally foreordained to happen that the woman should be a prostitute. But His LAW-cause&effect apply to her life (our life also).

Quote
But it does not mean that she can use that as an excuse, TO CONTINUE! NO, she can't.
But in the real world... she of course can say that as an excuse, right ? (applying because it's God's Will for her to say the excuse ?).

Quote
So all, each of our lives WILL include a time in deep sin of some sorts, it is necessary for our spiritual development to go through it.  BUT THIS BRINGS UP AN OBLIGATION! THE OBLIGATION TO REPENT OF OUR WRONGDOING!
But how people is to oblige, if the obligation itself is God's Will to oblige or not to oblige ?

so that's why to escape from this IMO "difficult situation" battling in me, it's not God who personally Will - but His LAW-cause&effect which "work" on the daily activities human life.

Would you please enlighten me :
Is it God whom personally "infiltrate" (do His Will) in every human daily activities ? Or is it His LAW that works ?

So why did you join this forum?

Did you come here expecting members to convince you to change your mind?
Were you hoping Ray would convince you?
If your not convinced, why join?
Because IMO, having a freewill is a good thing - so I joined the forum to know more about no-freewill.

Quote
You would only change your mind about it so members don't think your wrong?
That's not my main point, you will know by my subject-title : "is it important" ??

Quote
You spent a great deal of time to explain your beliefs of freewill. Why? Why here?
so the forum know what kind of "freewill" which is in my opinion. So my responder won't waste their time to describe what I already know.

Quote
You ask yourself what would change your mind.
Then I don;t need to join the forum, if I can find an answer by myself ... :)

Quote
we do have a will but we do not have "free" will.

It's much easier to understand if you remove 'free' from 'free-will'.  Every choice we make has a cause.
Yes... I think I'm now starting to understand.. that what I call "freewill" is actually just the will ... :)

that it would be hard for you to understand how one can not believe in free will and yet still be accountable and feel the inner drive to obey and follow him, like one would do if you believed in free wills "accountability". Is that correct?.
Nop... :) as mostly the one believe in freewill whom are "judged wrong" - so it's vice versa : how one can believe in free will and yet still be accountable and feel the inner drive to obey and follow him, like one would do if you believed in NO free wills "accountability" ...:)

Quote
Your fear actually has some validity, studies have shown. Recent studies have shown that if you convince experimental subjects that they have no free will, that their actions are not of themselves, they are less inclined to help others and become more aggressive!  So your anxiousness may be rooted in that, that you fear a temptation to become that way.
Actually it's not the "temptation to become that way" that I've been thinking of... but "how come God's Will infiltrates every single daily activities of human life".

IMHO He made His LAW-cause&effect, this LAW will work by itself based on the Will (I don't use "freewill" anymore now ... :)) He gave to every human.

In Adam&Eve case, IMHO He knew "it will happen" - but He didn't personally WILL influence Eve to be deceived.... on the contrary He did "warn/advice" (which I assume that this warning is to show He loves) not to eat the fruit, which indirectly telling that there is a LAW-cause&effect. Whether to eat or not is still AdamEve to decide... If I may say, somewhat like "let it happen" :)

About the potter and the clay.
I don't see in Jeremiah that the potter deliberately make the vessel spoil, while in Rome the potter seems deliberately make the vessel spoil.
How this contradict ?

Finally, thank you very much again to all my lovely responder.
I'm sorry if my respond is too long and please pardon my English.

best regards,
odading.
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Kat

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Re: is it important to change mind about freewill ?
« Reply #13 on: November 18, 2011, 11:09:51 AM »

Hi Odading,

Welcome to the forum  :)
Well we're having no free-will is one of the hardest things to believe and let go of, because our carnal mind wants desperately to think it has control. But what about the sovereignty of God? If God is truly sovereign and totally in control and actually holds all this creation together, then where is our free-will?

Col 1:16  For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him.
v. 17  And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist.

We are in an age of spiritual darkness, of great delusion, Satan has deceived the whole world.

2Thes 2:11  And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie,

Rev 12:9  So the great dragon was cast out, that serpent of old, called the Devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was cast to the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

This is all necessary for God's plan, in His wisdom  He has worked out the very best way inwhich we all will be brought to perfection (maybe not the way we would have done it). We are first to have a backdrop of darkness/evil, so then we need to be brought to the light/righteousness.

Ecc 1:13 I applied my heart to inquiring and exploring by wisdom concerning all that is done under the heavens:it is an experience of evil Elohim has given to the sons of humanity to humble them by it. (CLV)

God is working all this out behind the scene where we are not aware of His controlling all things. However God being in control and ultimately causing all things to happen does not make Him evil and a sinner. Here is a excerpt from the article no. 10 'The Synagogue of Satan - There's One Near You.'

http://bible-truths.com/lake10.html -------------------------

SATAN’S ROLE IN SALVATION

Satan does play a role in the salvation of the human race. Satan is just one more "evil" that God uses in bringing many sons into glory. The very reason that the above heading might turn some heads is not because it isn’t true or completely Scriptural, but rather because the world has been deceived about most of these spiritual things. God "created evil" (Isa. 45:7.) God does not create things that do not serve a good purpose. By the way, the word translated into "evil" in Isa. 45:7 is the Hebrew word ra, and it is the very same word translated hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of times as "evil" throughout the Old Testament.

Now the word ra does not have a conscience and therefore has no moral bias. Evil is not ‘SIN.’ God created evil; God Himself is not evil. And strictly speaking, God did not create sin, nor has God Himself ever sinned. What God has done is created humanity in a spiritually weakened state that is totally incapable of even understanding spiritual laws and principle, let alone being capable of obeying them. And this was not a sin or mistake on God’s part; this was weakness by design. Therefore, God is responsible (certainly not accountable,) but responsible for all sin. And God has already taken responsibility for all sin by sacrificing His Son, Jesus Christ:

"Behold the Lamb of God, which TAKES AWAY THE SIN OF THE WORLD (John 1:29);

"And He [Jesus] is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for THE SINS OF THE WHOLE WORLD" (I John 2:2.)

Some have tried to show that Isa. 45:7 is speaking of "calamity" and not "evil." Of the nineteen times that the word "calamity" appears in the Scriptures, it is never translated from the Hebrew Word ra, but usually is translated from the Hebrew word, ade.

Adam and Eve did not sin because they wanted to sin. No, they sinned because they were too spiritually weak to resist sin. True, they did volunteer to sin, but again, that was because they were too weak to resist the temptation to sin.

It is an incredible thing how many people fault our first parents for sinning. They believe that all the problems of this world and all of the problems that we individually suffer would have never come about if our first parents, Adam and Eve, had not been so stupid and had not sinned. How utterly foolish and unscriptural is such a thought. God never intended for our first parents to live perfectly in such a weakened spiritual state.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

All people who ever live are deceived, wretched sinners and most will go to their grave this way and the world thinks all these are lost, and God is justified to send them to an eternal hell to be tortured forever. What kind of twisted logic is that? Worse though is that's blasphemy to our God. Well they are deceived.

Rev 3:17  Because you say, "I am rich, have become wealthy, and have need of nothing'--and do not know that you are wretched, miserable, poor, blind, and naked--

Only a very few are being given the truth in this life, the rest will be raised in the resurrection of damnation and judgment, to be purged and cleansed in the Lake of fire and at that time "the people of the world learn righteousness."

Isa 26:9  With my soul I desired You in the night; yea, with my spirit within me I will seek You early; for when Your judgments are in the earth, the people of the world learn righteousness.

But for now it is a very few having their eyes opened, a very privileged few.

Deu 14:2  For thou art a holy people unto the LORD thy God, and the LORD hath chosen thee to be a peculiar people unto Himself, above all the nations that are upon the earth.

1Peter 2:9  But you are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, His own special people, that you may proclaim the praises of Him who called you out of darkness into His marvelous light;

Ray's articles are filled with the truth you are looking for. What a great blessing that you are beginning to have your eyes opened yo these truths. I pray it's God will that you continue to strive to learn these truths.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

« Last Edit: November 18, 2011, 11:15:26 AM by Kat »
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JohnMichael

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Re: is it important to change mind about freewill ?
« Reply #14 on: November 18, 2011, 11:20:56 AM »

Quote
But how can people be responsible if everything is God's Will and everything is His responsibility ?

God is responsible for evil, for good, for the way the world is, for the way people are, and for everything. God doesn't make man sin. However, God did create man's heart exceedingly weak. Thus, God is responsible.

Man is accountable for his choices because man desires to sin, to do evil, and to be carnal (those desires come from that exceedingly weak heart).

There's a slight difference between accountable and responsible.

Accountable: subject to the obligation to report, explain, or justify something

Responsible: chargeable with being the author

Notice how one is the controlled and the other is the controller?

Hope this helps; In Him,
John
« Last Edit: November 18, 2011, 11:34:47 AM by JohnMichael »
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DougE6

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Re: is it important to change mind about freewill ?
« Reply #15 on: November 18, 2011, 11:40:05 AM »


Deep thinker you are, Obading!

When you boil it all down as you are attempting to do, you have two main factors..1. A cause or causes 2. A choice.

In the final end YOU DO make the choice. You own the choice as you MADE it. You made it for the most part, of your volition. You chose. You, many times, LOVE your choice. You like to think the choice is all your own. You DO feel responsible because YOUR choice reveals YOUR PREFERENCES. You then followed through on your choice. So YOUR choosing makes you accountable.

God is the CAUSER. He steers His creation through creating the CAUSES that CAUSE your decision. But He never takes away your part...YOU MAKE THE CHOICE> OH He full well knows what that choice will be, He knows that your will WILL chooose whatever causes resonates with you the most. What ever YOU PREFER.  You will often choose to DO evil, because evil is in your heart. God knows this, but arranges the causes anyway, for good and great purposes.

This is why our CHOICES so well ILLUSTRATE what is in our heart. We will choose according to the preferences in our heart.

Spiritual growth requires that we need to have our hearts revealed. To ourselves.  We need to become ashamed of the sin in us,  to learn to HATE the wickedness and weakness and character flaws resident in us. Our responses to life, our choices show this clearly.

God has created an individual path for us all to walk in,  This individual path includes sinful hearts, hearts that are at our core, hearts that we need to have revealed.  Exposed. Changed. Re-created like to be like Jesus heart. Through the process of having us make choices, even choices that could not be chosen in any other way, is God's way of making us into His image. 

We MUST all LEARN to HATE the character flaws and evil in our hearts, and rejoice and Love and Embrace the righteousness, the goodness, the fruits of the spirit, that He puts into our renewed hearts and minds. WE will THEN SEE OUR CHOICES CORESPOND TO OUR NEW HEARTS> Halleleujah.
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River

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Re: is it important to change mind about freewill ?
« Reply #16 on: November 18, 2011, 12:04:22 PM »

"Everything is determined, the beginning as well as the end, by forces over which we have no control. It is determined for the insect as well as the star. Human beings, vegetables, or cosmic dust, we all dance to a mysterious tune, intoned in the distance by an invisible piper." - Albert Einstein

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Dave in Tenn

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Re: is it important to change mind about freewill ?
« Reply #17 on: November 18, 2011, 12:47:00 PM »

Kat was very wise to turn thoughts away from thinking about what does not exist--free will--and turning them towards what DOES exist--the sovereignty of God.

There's only so much the mind of man can understand about the ways of God.  We really begin to learn these things in and through obedience.  If you want to do good, then try to do good and see if you can.  Try it as an experiemnt if you're not yet ready to commit.  You'll learn more than the forum can 'teach' you.
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Heb 10:32  But you must continue to remember those earlier days, how after you were enlightened you endured a hard and painful struggle.

odading

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Re: is it important to change mind about freewill ?
« Reply #18 on: November 18, 2011, 12:47:34 PM »

Hi Odading,

Welcome to the forum  :)
Well we're having no free-will is one of the hardest things to believe and let go of, because our carnal mind wants desperately to think it has control.
Hi Kat,

I think I know now that I'm mistaken...it's not freewill.
As the term "freewill" (from now on) I should change to "will" instead.

Quote
But what about the sovereignty of God? If God is truly sovereign and totally in control and actually holds all this creation together, then where is our free-will?
But one thing that still "bugging" me, I do realize God sovereign - but I do wonder whether God has to personally "infiltrate" human daily activities by His Will, while at same time He made the LAW-cause&effect.

Just like an analogy from octoberose (I know it can't be applied exactly because of different relationship).

If I prepared the food at 7pm for my son, as it's time for him to eat - but it turnout he doesn't want to eat - and my Will is that he is to eat at that time, do I have to drag and force feeding him ?

IMHO, it's only after the situation "pass/happen" - then someone can say : "it's God's Will"... when :
- if the result "brings" a nice/good situation : "it's God's Will, He loves me"
- if the result "brings" a not good situation : "it's God's Will, He hasn't allow me yet".

and worse, when I'm late bring my dog to see the doctor, because I'm quite busy with works - and then my dog die : "Oh God, why did you this to me ? You're responsible for my dog's death, I'm not responsible for this - because Your Will made me a lot work to do ... and so on and so on."

Oh my.... I can't and will never say that - because I fully understand, it is ME who put more attention at work, it is ME who delay to see doctor so it is ME who made my dog die.

Except, if I do abandon my work - bring the dog to see doctor soon, I do my best for the dog, but the dog still die then I'm sure it is God's Will that my dog has to die on that day and time.

To me, His ultimate Will is when He take His creature's life.

Quote
God is working all this out behind the scene where we are not aware of His controlling all things.
Hiksss...  :'( , it's really difficult for me to understand if that "behind the scene" is that He personally control every daily activities each human life. (which made me think, it isn't necessary for Him to make His LAW-cause&effect)

Quote
However God being in control and ultimately causing all things to happen does not make Him evil and a sinner.
even in my believe that "He let it happen" - and when something bad comes up - I'm sure I'll never think that He is evil ... :)

(for me "He let it happen" is different than "He deliberately MAKE IT happen" :))

Thank you for your respond, the article and verses you gave me, Kat.

regards,
odading.
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odading

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Re: is it important to change mind about freewill ?
« Reply #19 on: November 18, 2011, 12:59:21 PM »

God is responsible for evil, for good, for the way the world is, for the way people are, and for everything. God doesn't make man sin. However, God did create man's heart exceedingly weak. Thus, God is responsible.

Man is accountable for his choices because man desires to sin, to do evil, and to be carnal (those desires come from that exceedingly weak heart).
I've just search an online bible with "responsible" keyword. Why the verse use "responsible" not "accountable" ?

Quote
There's a slight difference between accountable and responsible.

Accountable: subject to the obligation to report, explain, or justify something

Responsible: chargeable with being the author

Notice how one is the controlled and the other is the controller?
In a real life can I make the analogy something like : The boss is responsible - his staff is accountable (which mean his staff doesn't need to be responsible to himself and his boss ? (very sorry... as I don't quite get the meaning of "accountable").

Anyway... thank you for your respond John.

regards,
odading.
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