> General Discussions
is it important to change mind about freewill ?
DougE6:
Best condensed discourse on the topic on free will that I have seen. Thanks kat for your tireless searching of Rays articles and emails. You are definitely the search engine of this site, to great effect.
Doug
GaryK:
Once more:
Douge6:
“God being in control of all things,
is actually the bottom line, in the proper understanding of how events transpire in this universe.”
John Michael:
“God is responsible
for evil, for good, for the way the world is,
for the way people are, and for everything.
DougE6:
“God
has created an individual path for us all to walk in, This individual path includes sinful hearts, hearts that are at our core, hearts that we need to have revealed. Exposed. Changed. Re-created like to be like Jesus heart.
Through the process of having us make choices,
even choices that could not be chosen in any other way,
is God's way of making us into His image.”
Kat,
from Ray:
“God determined
who we were, when we would be born, where, and under what circumstances.
What sins we would commit, what sins we wouldn’t commit,
it’s all predetermined of God. Why? Because God is sovereign,
that’s why. He is in control of everything!”
Ray:
“If God is Sovereign, then God must be EVIL, because there is so much evil in the world,
and God is in control of all things, right? Wrong, wrong, wrong!
Man makes all his own choices. Just because they are CAUSED does not mean that he does not make them. He is, in fact, CAUSED TO MAKE HIS CHOICES.
But God does not directly do this. He is responsible,
but He does not directly cause those choices.”
^^^^^^(how is this possible if God is in CONTROL OF EVERYTHING???)^^^^^^
Or, maybe Ray is saying God ISN"T in control of everything.
Ray:
“God made man's heart. Man did not make his own heart, or his body, or his mind, or his brain, or his will, or his hopes and dreams. They are all PREDESTINATED by the foreknowledge of God.”
Dammit.
Is God in control of ALL things………………or not????
If I have a choice to make:
Choice A?
Choice B?
Choice C?
if I choose choice C, AND, choice C is the most sinful choice I could have possibly made, has major dire consequences and supplies unending extreme unhappiness for many….I made the choice, yes, I get that part, but didn’t God cause me to make choice C over A or B, since he ‘made my heart, my mind, AND MY WILL and my hopes they were all predestined and since he’s in control of ALL things??
I understand the part of making a choice, it’s caused, cause/effect/choice(s)/choose, got it, but did ‘I’ choose ‘C’ over A or B because God wanted me to choose C over A and B?....or not? Ray said specifically ““God determined What sins we would commit, what sins we wouldn’t commit,
If he didn’t make me choose ‘C’, how so?
Either God is in control or he isn't. If he isn't in control of ALL things, then like Ray said in his free-will series, 1/2 could choose to go one way and the other half the other way and God couldn't control squat.
I'm not attempting to point a contradiction, I'm trying to understand if God is in control of ALL things.
Kat:
Hi Gray,
Well we all know that God is sovereign and that means without Him there is nothing, period. He holds everything together by the power of His Spirit (Col 1:17), so it is an impossibility for anything to happen that He is not ultimately in control of. He doesn't just allow it, it is only by Him that anything can happen in the first place, He actually has to be the ultimate cause of it all.
In this world everything is made to be just as it is by God, in His sovereignty, by the power of His Spirit and therefore He is responsible. Now then, He made us too spiritual weak to resist sin, He made us that way so He doesn't have to directly make us do this or that, we want to, we volunteer, we do it without His having to directly do anything and therefore we are accountable. But He is in control of everything, so He knows what we will do and when and indeed made it to be so.
Here is an email and a excerpt from the Letter 2 to James Kennedy, for more on this.
http://bible-truths.com/email11.htm#responsibility -----------------
[Ray Replies]
You ask how one is held "accountable" when he only did what he HAD to do? I actually do answer this in my paper, but let me relate it for you. God has NOT given man 'free' will (the ability to make UNCAUSED choices), all of man's choices are CAUSED BY SOMETHING. But the man DOES MAKE THE CHOICES!
When you or I are confronted with a decision to either do something that we know is right, or know is wrong, we weight the options and MAKE THE CHOICE. God has absolutely given man a brain that has the ability to process information. Man CAN process information and make a choice. But it is the information itself the causes the choice one way or the other. The man cannot make a choice WITHOUT some form of information that influences or ultimately CAUSES him to make a choice. NO ONE MAKES US MAKE THE CHOICE, even other unforeseen circumstances and information DOES MAKE OR CAUSE US TO CHOOSE! True, circumstances beyond our control, which we do not see or even perceive, do cause us to MAKE a choice, but ... BUT, IN OUR OWN HEART AND MIND, WE MAKE THE CHOICE -- not someone else or something else.
But "it's all GOD" Who is ACTUALLY doing it, isn't it? NO, YOU, ACTUALLY, ARE THE ACTIVE PARTICIPANT WHO IS DOING IT! God merely brings about the circumstances that INFLUENCE AND CAUSE YOU TO DO IT!
Now then, pay close attention to what I am saying: Why are we held accountable for something that we absolutely COULD NOT HAVE AVOIDED? Why? Because at the time we made the 'voluntary' (not absolutely 'FREE,' but 'voluntary') CHOICE, it was in OUR heart and in OUR mind to DO SO. And if the choice was WRONG, or SINFUL, then WE, not GOD, must be held accountable. God takes the "responsibility" for what we did -- hence He DIED ON A CROSS FOR US, but WE are accountable for our SINFUL WRONG CHOICES.
This is the only way man will LEARN right from wrong! Adam and Eve were 'TOLD' right from wrong, but not until they actually 'EXPERIENCED' right and wrong, did it make sense to them. IT IS WRONG TO SIN WHETHER WE WERE COERCED TO COMMIT SIN OR NOT. "The DEVIL MADE me do it." It matters not, YOU DID IT and are therefore accountable.
Juveniles commit MILLIONS of crimes and sins for which they are not RESPONSIBLE. But, nonetheless, our own court system HOLDS THEM ACCOUNTABLE. And even human, carnal, judges take this factor into consideration when handing out penalties.
It is the PENALTY that also CAUSES US TO CHOOSE RIGHTLY after we have chosen WRONGLY! When we burn our fingers on a hot stove, we LEARN to not touch a hot stove.
God has developed a "ways and means" to accomplish His righteous end, plan, and purpose. And God's ways are VERY WISE -- they WORK, and they work very well! We have this absolute promise from God:
"When Thy JUDGMENTS are in the earth, the inhabitants of the world, WILL LEARN RIGHTEOUSNESS" (Isa. 26:9)!!!
God be with you,
Ray
http://bible-truths.com/kennedy2.htm ------------------------------------
" ... according to the purpose of the One Who is operating all in accord with the counsel of His will." (Eph. 1:11--Concordant Literal New Testament).
The only One in the universe Who is responsible [able to respond] is God And so, God takes full responsibility for everything even though He holds man accountable for his deeds. Man is accountable for his deeds, not because he could have done otherwise, but because he thinks he is responsible through his presumed free will. Because he actually did the things he did. However, the Scriptures tell us that, "not in all" is this knowledge. Puny man really thinks he is in control of his own destiny. He really thinks he is a "god unto himself." And the Christian Church hasn't done very much to educate him out of this dilemma.
v
You see, to the theological peanut galleries of the world, if God is responsible for everything in His creation, then He couldn't be justified in burning billions in eternal Hell fire! But if they can make man responsible, then it's his own doing. But for man to be responsible, God would have had to have given him much greater powers than even our Lord ever possessed.
"Verily, verily, I am saying to you, The Son can not be doing anything of Himself ... " (John 5:19).
Are we greater than our own Lord? Answer:
" ... apart from Me you can do nothing." (Jn. 15:5).
Well, there it is. God has given man no such powers.
"It is not in man to direct his own steps" (Jer. 10:23).
I know that this verse is shocking to contemplate. It is a real ego deflator. People do not want their self-esteem brought that low. They love to talk humble pie, but they won't eat it. If God tells us we can't even "direct our own steps," pray what can we do by ourselves? The true and Scriptural answer is just as shocking:
" ... for apart from Me [Christ] you can do NOTHING" (John 15:5).
I know this truth is too high for most. Most don't really meditate on such verses. They certainly would never preach a sermon on them. They wouldn't be able to take credit for their own salvation anymore (if they actually believed these Scriptures). They would be forced to get rid of all their self worth. They couldn't feel all puffed up like the King of Assyria if they acknowledged God's total Sovereignty in their lives. They don't have to believe it now. God isn't breaking anyone's arm to accept these truths. But don't try to skillfully contradict these truths of the Scriptures, for that only makes you look silly.
I'll let you in on a secret, Dr. Kennedy. It's not God that theologians are trying to protect from responsibility so much as it is their own ego. They will cling to freewill at the expense of "burning billions" in their eternal hell fire.
If God is absolutely responsible for the salvation of all His creatures (and He absolutely is), then He is obligated to save them. He would have to save them. Their salvation would be assured. (Wouldn't that be a terrible thing for theologians and clergymen to contemplate?) In other words, since God is going to bring peace, happiness, and salvation to all of His creatures in Heaven and Earth, God is a real God. A God worthy of the name. A God to truly be GLORIFIED!
-----------------------------------------------------------------
mercy, peace and love
Kat
DougE6:
Hi gk
when Ray said God does not directly cause those choices, he was talking in references to the evil choices that are done. God does not tempt us DIRECTLY. James tells us that..
Jas 1:13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:
Jas 1:14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
So who/what does the actual tempting? Your hearts lusts and spiritual forces and circumstances and opportunities. The Scriptures do show us that God does send spiritual beings to do what they have been designed to do, in conforming to Gods will and plan and direction. like when God wanted Ahab killed and he asked for spirits to come up with a solution, that He intended to happen...
1Ki 22:19 And he said, Hear thou therefore the word of the LORD: I saw the LORD sitting on his throne, and all the host of heaven standing by him on his right hand and on his left.
1Ki 22:20 And the LORD said, Who shall persuade Ahab, that he may go up and fall at Ramothgilead? And one said on this manner, and another said on that manner.
1Ki 22:21 And there came forth a spirit, and stood before the LORD, and said, I will persuade him.
1Ki 22:22 And the LORD said unto him, Wherewith? And he said, I will go forth, and I will be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets. And he said, Thou shalt persuade him, and prevail also: go forth, and do so.
1Ki 22:23 Now therefore, behold, the LORD hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these thy prophets, and the LORD hath spoken evil concerning thee.
So did God control this situation? Yes . Did Gods plan succeed? Yes. Did God DO the actual tempting? No.
Verse 23 gives the bottome line...The LORD hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these thy prophets, and the LORD hath spoken evil concerning thee.
But the process still did not mean God FORCED anyone to do evil against their own wills, even the spirits volunteered...
"And the LORD said, Who shall persuade Ahab, that he may go up and fall at Ramothgilead? And one said on this manner, and another said on that manner.
1Ki 22:21 And there came forth a spirit, and stood before the LORD, and said, I will persuade him"
So, God always gets His intention and plan done, and even if that plan includes evil choices by individuals, God does NOT directly tempt the chooser, and He had already put into place the extensive spiritual systems and forces, the hosts of heaven, that CAN be a cause (one of many) to ACT on ones individual heart, and this works because we are spiritually very weak and susceptible to these causes.
But more important than this, is the need forr us to recognize our great individual spiritual weakness, to learn to hate it, and ask/beg./ seekGod to change our weak hearts to be conformed to the heart of Jesus.
So if it is NOT in the plan of God it ain't gonna happen, and He steers everything as He can cantrol all causes, whether that is a spiritual cause, or circumstances being what they are, , and fully knowing how your heart will choose/respond.
But I do not understand why so much angst is poured over this. I myself, am much more focused on my own individual heart, my own individual heart, am I gowing spirituakly or not? Am I getting spiritually stronger or not? Who cares how God accomplishes this. I want it to be accomplished, make me spiritually strong!!
G. Driggs:
--- Quote from: gk on November 22, 2011, 09:47:01 AM ---
But God does not directly do this. He is responsible,
but He does not directly cause those choices.”
^^^^^^(how is this possible if God is in CONTROL OF EVERYTHING???)^^^^^^
Or, maybe Ray is saying God ISN"T in control of everything.
--- End quote ---
How bout indirectly by creating Satan? It seems God is still in control whether or not he causes something directly or indirectly. But i dunno, just a thought.
--- Quote from: Kat on November 21, 2011, 02:23:00 PM ---
But God does not directly do this. He is responsible, but He does not directly cause those choices. Things like the Devil do such things. And who created the Devil? That's right, that One Who is Sovereign and in charge of all things.
--- End quote ---
Navigation
[0] Message Index
[#] Next page
[*] Previous page
Go to full version