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is it important to change mind about freewill ?
Dave in Tenn:
I didn't know you were a military man--I thought you were a musician--not that you can't be both. Either way, this is God's gig. Someways we're the audience. Someways we're the instrument. Someways we're the music. One day we may even be side-men.
There's a flip-side to this too that doesn't get considered as much as whether God causes us to 'sin' when we ourselves want to. I had hoped it would be more obvious in relating the scripture about Peter's betrayal. Peter said, "I will not" and Jesus told him "You will." Just because we set our wills to do the thing/make the choice which we know is right does not mean that we can 'will' ourselves to do it. In every way, this process of salvation is by Grace through faith...and even the faith is a gift of God. God is sovereign over our wills, no matter WHICH direction our wills want to go.
It wasn't until Peter looked back/remembered the words/will of Jesus that he understood. Jesus IS Lord. The answer is faith, and I know that religion has hollowed out that word to the point it is hard to re-grasp the significance of it. The answer to no faith is faith. The answer to insufficient faith is more faith. We're not left ignorant about how faith enters us.
Anyways, TODAY is always the day to choose, when we're attempting to do the right thing. We don't know until after the choice whether it was right or wrong, I believe. God is never surprised, but we often are. And it's not always (seldom?) a 'pleasant' surprise He has in store for us. It doesn't 'puff-up' anybody who believes the Sovereignty of God. It will humble us to death.
rj:
Hey gk
The way i see it, and i could be wrong, but in each of us is the lust of the flesh
the lust of the eye, and the pride of life, so how far we fall into depravity depends
on Gods plan for that lump of clay, as Ray says we are sinning machines.I hear people say
all the time, but for the grace of God there go i, but do they truly believe that it is God
that restrains that certain sin in their life. If im not the dirty old man then i know for
what ever reason God has restrained that sin in my life.
rj
lilitalienboi16:
I must be so simple minded. I struggle to see the difficulty behind a soveriegn God in which the actions of the individuals does not equal a God who forces man to do evil or sin.
Simply put; God creator of all, satan, evil, man's weak heart. Hence He takes responsibility by dying for his creation and to show that in the face of al despair, His emense love for everyone of His precious children.
Man, in his created weakened state, consisting of a weak heart incapable of doing an ounce of good and a carnal mind volunteers to sin and in doing so, becomes accountable for his sin, not having been forced to do it or tempted of God for when he does commit such acts of evil, in his heart he had fully wanted to do it. He wanted to make the evil choice all on his own, (And it was man making the choice!! No one else!) all it took was the right circumstance for the devoid of light that is mans heart, to show its true nature.
In wanting a grand family, the Lord knew this was the absolute best way to do it. To subject His precious children to evil. Oh how it breaks our Fathers heart, I'm sure. It is no easy thing to wacth loved ones struggle and suffer. For the Father knows that to be His children we must possess His characteristics. In this mortal shell we carry the characteristics of our parents in the form of DNA, genetic make up. But how does one carry characterstics, traits, of a heavenly father in which a bond exists spiritually and not physically? Well, to share such divine characterstics which our Father posess, such as love, patience, kindness, long suffering, meakness, to be like Him, we have to experience the evil that developes such Godly traits. We need the concept of evil to even comprehend what good is, and God is good! We need the darkness to know the light! We need to see and experience the act of suffering to understand what it means to be joyous, to have joy. If God could give us all these abstract qualities in the snap of a finger, I think He would, but then again can one give patience in the snap of a finger if by very nature patience requires waiting for often times, longer then desired periods? Its not liuke love, meakness, joy, patience, are like a box of chocolate you can just give to someone. Besidrs, if God gave you everything you wanted all the time but never spent time with you, would you not start to doubt His love? After all, if our earthly parents gave us things all the time but never spent time with us, we'd all start to wonder if they even loved us in the first place. Because when we suffer, and endure these things, we know God is with us, always and we feel Him near.
In closing.. I think everything is as it should be, with good logcial reason behind it. This is the absolute best way for our Father to be just that, a Father and for us to benefit thmost because remember, He is always always always acting in OUR best interest. Talk about love eh?
God bless,
Alex
P.S. That was just my humble honest two cents about all this.
GaryK:
Then obviously I’m over-thinking this whole matter. I like things simple, straightforward, without mystery as to the author should matters need investigating after the fact. Obviously this is not a matter that can be contained as such.
Taking Peters example:
Peter willed to not leave the lord’s side, the lord knew Peter’s will, but that wasn’t of plan and purpose. God did not want Peter to choose his own will but the will of god. What did the lord do? He created circumstances (men with the intent to kill), the cause, to produce a change in Peters will, fear, the effect. Why? To fulfill God’s purpose. Did Peter understand what had happened? He knew about fear, and he could connect the fear with the temptation to run. Did he know at that time that it was god’s will that he run? Peter, at that point, changed his will to match that of the lords will. Peter chose, but God was responsible for the outcome of Peter’s decision. Peter is accountable, God is responsible for the result of the decision, run Peter run. Peter chose, the choice, what god wanted him to choose. God makes us choose the way we do by creating the right circumstances.
That is as simple to me as drawing a line in the sand with a crooked stick.
God makes things happen how he wants them to happen, and that includes creating the circumstances to influence spiritually weakened human beings to CHOOSE as God requires them to choose. The human being chooses (accountability) but god’s purpose will be fulfilled (responsibility). That includes rapists raping. Circumstances from god beget conditions that produces maggots to prey. They may make the decision from a weak heart, but it’s a weak heart and a weak will that god produced by circumstances to fulfill his purpose. God influences mankind to make the decisions he wants and sometimes we scratch our heads wondering why the choices that we made……were made….but make absolutely no sense on a clear day, usually by hindsight.
If god picks and chooses how he wants some lives to be, that’s one thing. But the scripture says ALL mankind he watches over and directs their steps. That includes everyone and every decision to make a step to fulfill gods’ purpose. Otherwise I see holes and lies.
Look, I’ve beat this thing to death and it’s obvious, even to me now, that I am unable to think outside the rut. So be it. As pathetic as it may sound, I suppose my fist will remain in the air shaking at god until he either flattens me like a pancake, or opens my spiritual eyes. I’m reminded of Jacob wrestling with the angel. It’s not that I don’t agree with his plan, who am I?....and this isn’t about sinning, or free-will. It’s about putting the perspective back to what is what and the way I see it is that God has a plan that includes human beings sinning and causing atrocities to no end. He frames evil and cause some to be good folk and some to be evil. How else could his plan be fulfilled? How else will we learn righteousness? The way I see it, when Ray says things are pre-determined, that doesn't mean some here, some there.....it means everything to God's will.
Isaiah 2:4 And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.
lilitalienboi16:
--- Quote from: Journey on November 23, 2011, 12:40:32 PM ---Hi gk,
I think like you. Yes, it is very simple. If I believe all the scriptures and I believe there is no free will, and if God caused Jesus Christ to not sin, then God causes sinners to sin. I don't see anyway around it.
I read the statement God does not force us to sin, because by saying this would imply that we didn't want to sin in the first place, yet we are sinning machines, which is true. But in the scriptures clearly we see examples of God changing people heart to fulfill his purpose, the example you gave of Peter is one, and of Pharaoh as well, he wanted to let the Israelites go but God "hardened his heart" over and over, Pilat didn't want to crucify Jesus, but he did it because of the Jews. Paul said this:
Rom 7:15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.
Rom 7:19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
Rom 7:20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
Is evil man killing a little child a greater evil than 10s of thousands die in a natural disaster? and God says " shall there be evil in a city, and the LORD hath not done it? "
So I do think God causes sinners to sin, after all God is the one that made the sinners. but God is not evil in doing this. I do take great comfort in Isaiah 55:8-9, there is so much we can't comprehend yet. But we are not left without hints, in the scriptures, and in the things made. And these hints helped me perceive and find peace and rest in our God who is great and good far exceeding my understanding of Him.
First, the book of Job, here is the hint, God gives, God takes away, then God gives it back, and He gives it back so much (infinitely) better, so much (infinitely) more:
Job 42:12 So the LORD blessed the latter end of Job more than his beginning
To me that is not just the story of Job, it is the story of the whole humanity, the whole creation. We are subjected to vanity, to endure "light affliction, which is but for a moment" for the glory ALL are destined to receive:
2Co 4:17 For our light affliction, which is but for a moment, worketh for us a far more exceeding and eternal weight of glory;
If we look at all the atrocities in the whole history collectively, it is indeed endless, insumountable, but if we look at each individual's sufferings, it is indeed framed (limited) by God, death delivers all from all evil. As Ray pointed out before, God can take a life, He can also raise the dead. In fact He only takes away to give back what would be infinitely better. The present evil serves God's great purpose. This life will pass away, whether we live to be 100 or die an infant, from eternity's point of view it is but a vapor for a little time:
Jas 4:14 For what is your life? It is even a vapour, that appeareth for a little time, and then vanisheth away.
If this life is it, is all we can hope for, then indeed this creation is most miserable, it would have been better if God never created it. But it is NOT. This is only the beginning. Think this life only as the first station of a journey that will continue for eternity. Everything doesn't end here, and there is hope and happy ending for all.
Another hint I take is from the theater. Think of God as the writer of a grand play. If I watch a play that has evil in it, I would not assume the writer himself is evil. I recognize it is a necessary part of the plot, everything leads to the grand results of the drama. And the results of our drama is: God will be all in all.
Just my 2 cents.
--- End quote ---
Absolutely gorgeous!!! Great post! You said it well!
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