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adultery
mharrell08:
--- Quote from: River on January 03, 2012, 08:27:27 PM ---Yeah I am not talking about a marriage of this sort. Knowing the kingdom of God is not meat and drink and His words are Spirit I'm not concerned with physical rituals. The idea I am speaking of is shown in Ray's response to a question.
http://bible-truths.com/email16.htm#physical
I like this line a lot ""We know longer know Jesus after the FLESH." Jesus HIMSELF said: "The flesh profits NOTHING." "The words that I speak unto you, they are SPIRIT and they are LIFE."
This is the marriage I am speaking of. This is the higher application, it operates without a pagan pastor, a judge of carnal matters or customs of false religions which flow in our society.
Revelations 17 says it well " With her the kings of the earth committed adultery, and the inhabitants of the earth were intoxicated with the wine of her adulteries.”
This is the adultery, the fornication, this is the whoredom and the breaking of the marriage vows. It's a parable and to me about our marriage to Babylon. We are in bed with her, we have given ourselves to another, we have fornicated with her and commit adultery by living these things.
As Ray says in quotes below from the same response letter..
"Because there is absolutely nothing physical that can make one spiritual.
Paul baptized at one time in his ministry and then he quit. Why? Because he put away childish things and went on to spiritual maturity.
Paul used to circumcise in his early ministry and then he quit. Why? Because he put away childish things and went on to spiritual maturity.
All physical rituals are CARNAL ordinances, and we are no longer under carnal ordinances."
--- End quote ---
River, how is marriage a carnal ordinance? Where has Ray taught that a marriage ceremony is a carnal ordinance?
The person who emailed Ray asked about church rituals, the Lord's Supper to be exact. Ray then said 'I have absolutely nothing against anyone who wishes to keep the Lord's supper. I have nothing against anyone who wishes to be circumcised or be baptized. I have nothing against anyone who wishes to sacrifice animals or offer sin offerings, burnt offerings, peace offerings and the like.' The like is other church rituals, not any and every physical activity. A marriage ceremony has nothing to do with a church. I know this for a fact because I'm married and the church played no part.
You mentioned a judge of carnal matters and customs of false religions. These judges are placed in their position by God ['Let every soul be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and the authorities that exist are appointed by God' - Rom 13:1]. Paul admonishments regarding giving due to one's customs were posted above.
Also another point: We were never 'married' to Babylon in either a physical or spiritual sense. You don't commit adultery with someone you are married to. Throughout the scriptures, God has referred to us as His Beloved who played the harlot...but He was our Husband and would bring us to repentance. Yes, this is a parable with greater importance, but that does not mean the physical is worthless.
A physical ritual/ceremony is worthless when it holds no value past the ritual itself. That's when you know it's carnal, because it's worthless in the end. A marriage ceremony, though physical, has spiritual meaning. 'Two becoming one flesh' are words of spirit and speak of a spiritual condition which comes about from the actual marriage commitment.
Marques
Joel:
Is it really a marriage if God is not the head of the two that shall be one flesh?
Matthew 19:8
He saith unto them, Moses because of the hardness of your hearts suffered you to put away your wives: but from the beginning it was not so.
Jeremiah 6:16
Thus saith the Lord, Stand ye in the ways , and see, and ask for the old paths, where is the good way, and walk therein, and ye shall find rest for your souls, But they said, We will not walk therein.
Joel
John from Kentucky:
Meanwhile, back on planet earth, we are still physical human. As such, we are subject to God's laws as they apply to us.
If you have the Spirit of Jesus, if you recognize Jesus as Lord, then you will do as the Lord says.
We just cannot kill, or serve in the police or military where you may have to kill, or have weapons that you rely on to kill others. We cannot even have hate in our hearts for others, which is the spirit of murder.
Not only can we not have sex outside a marriage covenant, we cannot even have sexual lusts in our hearts.
We cannot swear or take oaths, but simply speak the truth.
And on and on it goes. Jesus' ways affect how we live every moment of our physical lives.
Jesus says why call Him Lord if you don't obey Him. It's a very good question that we all have to answer in our hearts.
River:
--- Quote from: mharrell08 on January 03, 2012, 09:02:39 PM ---
--- Quote from: River on January 03, 2012, 08:27:27 PM ---Yeah I am not talking about a marriage of this sort. Knowing the kingdom of God is not meat and drink and His words are Spirit I'm not concerned with physical rituals. The idea I am speaking of is shown in Ray's response to a question.
http://bible-truths.com/email16.htm#physical
I like this line a lot ""We know longer know Jesus after the FLESH." Jesus HIMSELF said: "The flesh profits NOTHING." "The words that I speak unto you, they are SPIRIT and they are LIFE."
This is the marriage I am speaking of. This is the higher application, it operates without a pagan pastor, a judge of carnal matters or customs of false religions which flow in our society.
Revelations 17 says it well " With her the kings of the earth committed adultery, and the inhabitants of the earth were intoxicated with the wine of her adulteries.”
This is the adultery, the fornication, this is the whoredom and the breaking of the marriage vows. It's a parable and to me about our marriage to Babylon. We are in bed with her, we have given ourselves to another, we have fornicated with her and commit adultery by living these things.
As Ray says in quotes below from the same response letter..
"Because there is absolutely nothing physical that can make one spiritual.
Paul baptized at one time in his ministry and then he quit. Why? Because he put away childish things and went on to spiritual maturity.
Paul used to circumcise in his early ministry and then he quit. Why? Because he put away childish things and went on to spiritual maturity.
All physical rituals are CARNAL ordinances, and we are no longer under carnal ordinances."
--- End quote ---
River, how is marriage a carnal ordinance? Where has Ray taught that a marriage ceremony is a carnal ordinance?
The person who emailed Ray asked about church rituals, the Lord's Supper to be exact. Ray then said 'I have absolutely nothing against anyone who wishes to keep the Lord's supper. I have nothing against anyone who wishes to be circumcised or be baptized. I have nothing against anyone who wishes to sacrifice animals or offer sin offerings, burnt offerings, peace offerings and the like.' The like is other church rituals, not any and every physical activity. A marriage ceremony has nothing to do with a church. I know this for a fact because I'm married and the church played no part.
You mentioned a judge of carnal matters and customs of false religions. These judges are placed in their position by God ['Let every soul be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and the authorities that exist are appointed by God' - Rom 13:1]. Paul admonishments regarding giving due to one's customs were posted above.
Also another point: We were never 'married' to Babylon in either a physical or spiritual sense. You don't commit adultery with someone you are married to. Throughout the scriptures, God has referred to us as His Beloved who played the harlot...but He was our Husband and would bring us to repentance. Yes, this is a parable with greater importance, but that does not mean the physical is worthless.
A physical ritual/ceremony is worthless when it holds no value past the ritual itself. That's when you know it's carnal, because it's worthless in the end. A marriage ceremony, though physical, has spiritual meaning. 'Two becoming one flesh' are words of spirit and speak of a spiritual condition which comes about from the actual marriage commitment.
Marques
Hey Marques,
I'm not trying to speak for Ray. I understand what he said. But yes to me it is just another ritual. And we have all sorts of commands to do all sorts of things but just as Ray says he doesn't do certain ones or no longer does them. It's the same with me. I was hoping you could see the connect. But yes I am not trying to speak for Ray. Because yes he believes as you state. But I have seen many people pick and choose and the reason they do is because they do or don't believe it. I happen to not believe it, that is, at least how you try to explain it. A lot is missing. The way I explained Revelation 17 makes scriptural sense to me and yes you can play with the words but the same thing happens with the scriptures. We call Christ a lamb, a rock etc. and you could come back at me and say Christ is not a rock! But we know these words convey meanings just as the Revelation 17 scripture. Are we to believe everytime the word intoxicated comes up it has to do with getting smashed from whiskey? I have a hard time thinking you don't understand what I am saying. Like I said way back this always turns into a religious muddle mess. For you, you omitted a church having no part in your ceremony. And yet you claim your married. So it's ok for you to do it like you see it but not for me? And I am sorry I see no value in a ceremony. It all sounds like the same stuff like "you must go to church" "you must be baptized in water" etc. But when people find out that they are the church and that water baptism is a parable they move on. To me it's bondage to religion. Two becoming one flesh is spiritual because you don't see a couple actually become one human being. :P These things are like the shadows in the Old Testament to me. We can see it played out over and over. The temple is a great example. And of course we later find out that we are the Temple. To me it's a wonderful way to express a higher meaning.
I don't want anyone to get the wrong idea that is reading this. I am not saying to listen to me, I could be wrong. I also do not suggest you have sex or lust. I am not promoting free sex or do what you want behavior. If it sounds like that then you misunderstand me. Thanks to everyone for being tolerant of me. And I apologize if I came across snide.
--- End quote ---
DougE6:
--- Quote ---Insert Quote
Meanwhile, back on planet earth, we are still physical human. As such, we are subject to God's laws as they apply to us.
If you have the Spirit of Jesus, if you recognize Jesus as Lord, then you will do as the Lord says.
We just cannot kill, or serve in the police or military where you may have to kill, or have weapons that you rely on to kill others. We cannot even have hate in our hearts for others, which is the spirit of murder.
Not only can we not have sex outside a marriage covenant, we cannot even have sexual lusts in our hearts.
We cannot swear or take oaths, but simply speak the truth.
And on and on it goes. Jesus' ways affect how we live every moment of our physical lives.
Jesus says why call Him Lord if you don't obey Him. It's a very good question that we all have to answer in our hearts.
--- End quote ---
Great post. Sums up the gospel. thanks JFK
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