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[mharrell08]

Yeah I am not talking about a marriage of this sort. Knowing the kingdom of God is not meat and drink and His words are Spirit I'm not concerned with physical rituals. The idea I am speaking of is shown in Ray's response to a question.

http://bible-truths.com/email16.htm#physical

I like this line a lot ""We know longer know Jesus after the FLESH." Jesus HIMSELF said: "The flesh profits NOTHING." "The words that I speak unto you, they are SPIRIT and they are LIFE."

This is the marriage I am speaking of. This is the higher application, it operates without a pagan pastor, a judge of carnal matters or customs of false religions which flow in our society.

Revelations 17 says it well " With her the kings of the earth committed adultery, and the inhabitants of the earth were intoxicated with the wine of her adulteries.”

This is the adultery, the fornication, this is the whoredom and the breaking of the marriage vows. It's a parable and to me about our marriage to Babylon. We are in bed with her, we have given ourselves to another, we have fornicated with her and commit adultery by living these things.

 As Ray says in quotes below from the same response letter..

"Because there is absolutely nothing physical that can make one spiritual.

Paul baptized at one time in his ministry and then he quit. Why? Because he put away childish things and went on to spiritual maturity.

Paul used to circumcise in his early ministry and then he quit. Why? Because he put away childish things and went on to spiritual maturity.

All physical rituals are CARNAL ordinances, and we are no longer under carnal ordinances."

River, how is marriage a carnal ordinance? Where has Ray taught that a marriage ceremony is a carnal ordinance?

The person who emailed Ray asked about church rituals, the Lord's Supper to be exact. Ray then said 'I have absolutely nothing against anyone who wishes to keep the Lord's supper. I have nothing against anyone who wishes to be circumcised or be baptized. I have nothing against anyone who wishes to sacrifice animals or offer sin offerings, burnt offerings, peace offerings and the like.' The like is other church rituals, not any and every physical activity. A marriage ceremony has nothing to do with a church. I know this for a fact because I'm married and the church played no part.

You mentioned a judge of carnal matters and customs of false religions. These judges are placed in their position by God ['Let every soul be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and the authorities that exist are appointed by God' - Rom 13:1]. Paul admonishments regarding giving due to one's customs were posted above.

Also another point: We were never 'married' to Babylon in either a physical or spiritual sense. You don't commit adultery with someone you are married to. Throughout the scriptures, God has referred to us as His Beloved who played the harlot...but He was our Husband and would bring us to repentance. Yes, this is a parable with greater importance, but that does not mean the physical is worthless.

A physical ritual/ceremony is worthless when it holds no value past the ritual itself. That's when you know it's carnal, because it's worthless in the end. A marriage ceremony, though physical, has spiritual meaning. 'Two becoming one flesh' are words of spirit and speak of a spiritual condition which comes about from the actual marriage commitment.


Marques

[Joel]

Is it really a marriage if God is not the head of the two that shall be one flesh?

Matthew 19:8
He saith unto them, Moses because of the hardness of your hearts suffered you to put away your wives: but from the beginning it was not so.

Jeremiah 6:16
Thus saith the Lord, Stand ye in the ways , and see, and ask for the old paths, where is the good way, and walk therein, and ye shall find rest for your souls, But they said, We will not walk therein.


Joel

[John from Kentucky]

Meanwhile, back on planet earth, we are still physical human.  As such, we are subject to God's laws as they apply to us.

If you have the Spirit of Jesus, if you recognize Jesus as Lord, then you will do as the Lord says.

We just cannot kill, or serve in the police or military where you may have to kill, or have weapons that you rely on to kill others.  We cannot even have hate in our hearts for others, which is the spirit of murder.

Not only can we not have sex outside a marriage covenant, we cannot even have sexual lusts in our hearts.

We cannot swear or take oaths, but simply speak the truth.

And on and on it goes.  Jesus' ways affect how we live every moment of our physical lives.

Jesus says why call Him Lord if you don't obey Him.  It's a very good question that we all have to answer in our hearts.

[River]

Yeah I am not talking about a marriage of this sort. Knowing the kingdom of God is not meat and drink and His words are Spirit I'm not concerned with physical rituals. The idea I am speaking of is shown in Ray's response to a question.

http://bible-truths.com/email16.htm#physical

I like this line a lot ""We know longer know Jesus after the FLESH." Jesus HIMSELF said: "The flesh profits NOTHING." "The words that I speak unto you, they are SPIRIT and they are LIFE."

This is the marriage I am speaking of. This is the higher application, it operates without a pagan pastor, a judge of carnal matters or customs of false religions which flow in our society.

Revelations 17 says it well " With her the kings of the earth committed adultery, and the inhabitants of the earth were intoxicated with the wine of her adulteries.”

This is the adultery, the fornication, this is the whoredom and the breaking of the marriage vows. It's a parable and to me about our marriage to Babylon. We are in bed with her, we have given ourselves to another, we have fornicated with her and commit adultery by living these things.

 As Ray says in quotes below from the same response letter..

"Because there is absolutely nothing physical that can make one spiritual.

Paul baptized at one time in his ministry and then he quit. Why? Because he put away childish things and went on to spiritual maturity.

Paul used to circumcise in his early ministry and then he quit. Why? Because he put away childish things and went on to spiritual maturity.

All physical rituals are CARNAL ordinances, and we are no longer under carnal ordinances."

River, how is marriage a carnal ordinance? Where has Ray taught that a marriage ceremony is a carnal ordinance?

The person who emailed Ray asked about church rituals, the Lord's Supper to be exact. Ray then said 'I have absolutely nothing against anyone who wishes to keep the Lord's supper. I have nothing against anyone who wishes to be circumcised or be baptized. I have nothing against anyone who wishes to sacrifice animals or offer sin offerings, burnt offerings, peace offerings and the like.' The like is other church rituals, not any and every physical activity. A marriage ceremony has nothing to do with a church. I know this for a fact because I'm married and the church played no part.

You mentioned a judge of carnal matters and customs of false religions. These judges are placed in their position by God ['Let every soul be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and the authorities that exist are appointed by God' - Rom 13:1]. Paul admonishments regarding giving due to one's customs were posted above.

Also another point: We were never 'married' to Babylon in either a physical or spiritual sense. You don't commit adultery with someone you are married to. Throughout the scriptures, God has referred to us as His Beloved who played the harlot...but He was our Husband and would bring us to repentance. Yes, this is a parable with greater importance, but that does not mean the physical is worthless.

A physical ritual/ceremony is worthless when it holds no value past the ritual itself. That's when you know it's carnal, because it's worthless in the end. A marriage ceremony, though physical, has spiritual meaning. 'Two becoming one flesh' are words of spirit and speak of a spiritual condition which comes about from the actual marriage commitment.


Marques

Hey Marques,

   I'm not trying to speak for Ray. I understand what he said. But yes to me it is just another ritual. And we have all sorts of commands to do all sorts of things but just as Ray says he doesn't do certain ones or no longer does them. It's the same with me. I was hoping you could see the connect. But yes I am not trying to speak for Ray.  Because yes he believes as you state. But I have seen many people pick and choose and the reason they do is because they do or don't believe it. I happen to not believe it, that is, at least how you try to explain it. A lot is missing. The way I explained Revelation 17 makes scriptural sense to me and yes you can play with the words but the same thing happens with the scriptures. We call Christ a lamb, a rock etc. and you could come back at me and say Christ is not a rock! But we know these words convey meanings just as the Revelation 17 scripture. Are we to believe everytime the word intoxicated comes up it has to do with getting smashed from whiskey? I have a hard time thinking you don't understand what I am saying. Like I said way back this always turns into a religious muddle mess. For you, you omitted a church having no part in your ceremony. And yet you claim your married. So it's ok for you to do it like you see it but not for me? And I am sorry I see no value in a ceremony. It all sounds like the same stuff like "you must go to church" "you must be baptized in water" etc. But when people find out that they are the church and that water baptism is a parable they move on. To me it's bondage to religion. Two becoming one flesh is spiritual because you don't see a couple actually become one human being. These things are like the shadows in the Old Testament to me. We can see it played out over and over. The temple is a great example. And of course we later find out that we are the Temple. To me it's a wonderful way to express a higher meaning.
I don't want anyone to get the wrong idea that is reading this. I am not saying to listen to me, I could be wrong. I also do not suggest you have sex or lust. I am not promoting free sex or do what you want behavior. If it sounds like that then you misunderstand me. Thanks to everyone for being tolerant of me. And I apologize if I came across snide.

[DougE6]

Insert Quote
Meanwhile, back on planet earth, we are still physical human.  As such, we are subject to God's laws as they apply to us.

If you have the Spirit of Jesus, if you recognize Jesus as Lord, then you will do as the Lord says.

We just cannot kill, or serve in the police or military where you may have to kill, or have weapons that you rely on to kill others.  We cannot even have hate in our hearts for others, which is the spirit of murder.

Not only can we not have sex outside a marriage covenant, we cannot even have sexual lusts in our hearts.

We cannot swear or take oaths, but simply speak the truth.

And on and on it goes.  Jesus' ways affect how we live every moment of our physical lives.

Jesus says why call Him Lord if you don't obey Him.  It's a very good question that we all have to answer in our hearts.

Great post. Sums up the gospel. thanks JFK

[Foxx]

The amazing thing about this thread is I didn’t see a question mark in Dre’s initial post, just statements.


Especially these:

I know I'm committing adultery…..

My conscience is really bothering me…………

I feel……..ashamed.

Yes, I noticed that too I suppose most people felt that the nature of his post implied he was a asking for the opinions of the rest of the forum. Since that is indeed what a forum is for in part. You are correct in pointing out that he was making statements about how he feels not asking questions.

At any rate, Craig, I really enjoyed your post! That was such a great analogy! Extremely well put!

Dre, I don't know what it is like to experience such a situation but I know what its like to be ashamed for something but if God wills he will give you the answer and take away the guilt from you. He knows the pain you are going through and your desire to honor him. That seems relatively apparent from your post. I hope you find the peace you need for this situation.

God Bless,
Matt

[Gina]

The amazing thing about this thread is I didn’t see a question mark in Dre’s initial post, just statements.


Especially these:

I know I'm committing adultery…..

My conscience is really bothering me…………

I feel……..ashamed.

Yes, I noticed that too I suppose most people felt that the nature of his post implied he was a asking for the opinions of the rest of the forum. Since that is indeed what a forum is for in part. You are correct in pointing out that he was making statements about how he feels not asking questions.

At any rate, Craig, I really enjoyed your post! That was such a great analogy! Extremely well put!

Dre, I don't know what it is like to experience such a situation but I know what its like to be ashamed for something but if God wills he will give you the answer and take away the guilt from you. He knows the pain you are going through and your desire to honor him. That seems relatively apparent from your post. I hope you find the peace you need for this situation.

God Bless,
Matt

1 John 1:9
If we [freely] admit that we have sinned and confess our sins, He is faithful and just (true to His own nature and promises) and will forgive our sins [dismiss our lawlessness] and [continuously] cleanse us from all unrighteousness [everything not in conformity to His will in purpose, thought, and action].

[Foxx]

[/quote]
1 John 1:9
If we [freely] admit that we have sinned and confess our sins, He is faithful and just (true to His own nature and promises) and will forgive our sins [dismiss our lawlessness] and [continuously] cleanse us from all unrighteousness [everything not in conformity to His will in purpose, thought, and action].
[/quote]

I think that about sums it up right there!  ^_^

[onelovedread]

Matthew 5: 27 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery:  28 But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart. KJV

Based on these verses, I'm not sure that many of us men aren't guilty of adultery in Jesus' eyes. Ya mean none of us have looked at a woman lustfully?!! (That's why I hesitate to jump in here). Isn't it even possible that a eunuch could commit adultery?:-)

[Deborah-Leigh]

Isn't it even possible that a eunuch could commit adultery?:-)

That's an honest question onelovedread!

[Gina]

Isn't it even possible that a eunuch could commit adultery?:-)

I googled "what happens to a man who is castrated," and I got lots of information directly from the source.  The truth is they lose their sexual desire.  Boys who are castrated before puberty grow to sound and maybe look more (but not behave) like females AND all sexual desire for females (or whomever) never comes to fruition.  (FOOT CRAMP AS I TYPE.  AHHH   That kills.)  On the other hand, castrated adolescent boys/men will lose only their desire for sex.  They won't  grow to look more like women for the mere fact that they've had testosterone coursing through their veins and have
"matured." 

Listen to this:  There was a man who not long ago who was about to be released from prison (he was a pedophile) who requested castration because he knew he'd go back to raping / sodomizing children.  His request was denied--now that I find VERY strange.  But whatever.

[Deborah-Leigh]

Thanks for doing the research Gina!

There is more to it, than meets the eye in  if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire. 

[Gina]

Thanks for doing the research Gina!

There is more to it, than meets the eye in  if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire. 

You're welcome!

And...easier said than done.  That takes a work of God.  It baffles me to think that men have actually castrated themselves for the sake of the kingdom.  Thankfully for the men out there castration isn't a requirement and circumcision is of the heart.  I mean, if I were a man when I read that, I'd be so relieved.  No joke.

[Deborah-Leigh]

And...easier said than done.  That's takes a work of God.  It baffles me to think that men have actually castrated themselves for the sake of the kingdom.  Thankfully for the men out there castration isn't a requirement and circumcision is of the heart.  I mean, if I were a man when I read that, I'd be so relieved.  No joke.

EXACTLY Gina!

I believe what this throws light on, is the fact that the carnality of human thinking renders many things as sinful and earning of death, than what God Himself sees as fault error or deserving of punishment.

As Ray points out. The term punish is used only once throughout Scriptures and that lends itself to the difference in the mind of man, who will punish the same sin over and over again....Just look at guilt and how often the mind will revisit a sin of ours, to keep beating us up, over and over again....

Not knowing then that God is Merciful, man prefers punishment and making what is good evil and what is evil good.

Shine light shine!

[Deborah-Leigh]

PS...having TWO eyes, lends itself to the Scripture, if thine eye be SINGLE, that is nothing to do with physically having two or one eye....LOL or being single or married either! 

[Gina]

And...easier said than done.  That's takes a work of God.  It baffles me to think that men have actually castrated themselves for the sake of the kingdom.  Thankfully for the men out there castration isn't a requirement and circumcision is of the heart.  I mean, if I were a man when I read that, I'd be so relieved.  No joke.

EXACTLY Gina!

I believe what this throws light on, is the fact that the carnality of human thinking renders many things as sinful and earning of death, than what God Himself sees as fault error or deserving of punishment.

As Ray points out. The term punish is used only once throughout Scriptures and that lends itself to the difference in the mind of man, who will punish the same sin over and over again....Just look at guilt and how often the mind will revisit a sin of ours, to keep beating us up, over and over again....

Not knowing then that God is Merciful, man prefers punishment and making what is good evil and what is evil good.

Shine light shine!

I see what you're saying, Deb, and I agree... to a point.  I definitely have a tendency to revisit my sin, and if I do beat myself up, perhaps that's what Paul meant when he said:

1 Corinthians 9:27
But [like a boxer] I buffet my body [handle it roughly, discipline it by hardships] and subdue it, for fear that after proclaiming to others the Gospel and things pertaining to it, I myself should become unfit [not stand the test, be unapproved and rejected as a counterfeit].

Did he literally handle his body roughly and subdue it?  I'm going to say no.  That was the messenger of Satan's job. 

I don't know about anyone else, but I don't prefer punishment over mercy.  I always beg God for mercy and this is why:  because while there may not be punishment for sin -- there is cause and effect.  I'm constantly revisiting my sin, true.  But I am also becoming  more cognizant of the fact that God has shown me great mercy.   Not every smoker gets lung cancer, not every alcoholic kills someone in a car crash or dies from cirrhosis of the liver, not every promiscuous person gets a sexually transmitted disease or what have you, but who in their right mind wants to take "chances"?    So I beat myself back (maybe not "up") but definitely back.  Take my own backside out to the woodshed.  haha

[Gina]

p.s.  Besides, what effect does our sin have on innocent bystanders.  And that's another huge reason to beat myself back, even if I didn't suffer consequences to my own  body or mind.  There are others who can be hurt (offended, if you will) by my sin.   Anyway, that's all for tonight.  I've rambled.  Forgive.
Muah!

[Deborah-Leigh]

I see your point Gina, to what Paul refers....

myself should become unfit [not stand the test, be unapproved and rejected as a counterfeit].

Yes...that which is unfit, rejected and counted as counterfeit IS the MY self that is the ego or the beast within sitting on the Throne of Christ in Temple that we are. 

Consider also Paul also wrote the following ~

Rom 7:5  For while we were living in the flesh, sinful passions aroused by the law were at work in our bodies to bear fruit for death.

Rom 12:1  I therefore urge you, brothers, in view of God's mercies, to offer your bodies as living sacrifices that are holy and pleasing to God, for this is the reasonable way for you to worship.

If you are not "in view of God's mercies" then living in the flesh as sinful passion aroused by the law, is the work of deliverance of  God's Spirit that saves the lost, restores the broken and uplifts the downtrodden leaving no one unfit, unapproved or rejected.

All are saved in view of God's mercies. 

 

[Deborah-Leigh]

p.s.  Besides, what effect does our sin have on innocent bystanders.  And that's another huge reason to beat myself back, even if I didn't suffer consequences to own body or mind.  There are others who can be hurt (offended, if you will) by my sin.   Anyway, that's all for tonight.  I've rambled.  Forgive.
Muah!

....."another huge reason to beat yourself"....will come to an end.  Thankfully!

Rom 6:11  Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.

[Deborah-Leigh]

http://www.garretjohn.com/turn-on-tune-in-drop-out-2/

Christ is the sacred Light within the Temple of God that you are.