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questions. weighing heavily on my heart

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Gina:

--- Quote ---But there is a limit to what people can suffer, people die if there bodies are injured too much, they die and it's over. I mean that is in the design of human beings, we will only suffer to a certain degree and then we die. Now death is a scary thing for us all, but it will come to us all, that's for sure. The means that it comes is the worse part,
--- End quote ---
-Kat

Hi, Kat:  I've seen you say this before, and it's so much more comforting a thought to know and believe we won't continue to suffer in dying / death as we were taught in church.  Thank you for pointing that out. 

The means by which it comes...  ahh that's the scary part. If you see it coming, and it lingersss.  Ughhh that thought just creeps me out.  Like suffocating or whatever.  Bleh.  That's just the worst.  But we don't know how we're going to die.  We could die in our sleep and never see it coming.  And I pray that's the way I die.  Seriously.  I just imagine that my death will be painless, instead of painful. 

And the thought of a painful death sure makes for compassion towards other people in their dying states. Ya know?  Unless you're Charles Manson or Jeffrey Dahmer.

The other thing about this topic is what a lot people are bothered by, including me: 
Why does God work death in us this way?    Why did He think it a good idea to make us weak and then kill us?  It's like Ray said,
--- Quote ---It's a bizarre work God is doing.  It's so bizarre.
--- End quote ---
  And we can only dwell on that for so long before we start to go a little insane or get depressed and angry about it.  And then as for me, personally, when I wasn't getting any answers that comforted me, I, like the majority of people if not all people, would go out and try to make myself feel better -- lift my own spirits, which always meant that I sinned/broke God's commands.

As for me, outside of eternal torment, there's only one thing worse than dying or death, and that's the thought that God could or never would change the way things or people are.  I mean, say there was no death or major suffering in death and everyone just died peacefully in their sleep, there's still other things that can be just as tormenting that a person can go through, like mental suffering which can hurt so bad on an emotional level that people have literally thrown themselves in front of trains (happened in my old neighborhood about ten years ago) to escape that torment.

Whatever reason God chose to work death and weakness in us, it sure makes you go, huh?  The church says, don't question, just accept it.  But ya can't.  We need answers and we need comfort and I think what you said, Kat, that there's only so much suffering in death, is about the most comforting thing I've read ever.

I'm rambling.  Have a good Friday, evuhbody!  Thankya, thankya ver'muchhh.  ~Elvis the pelvis  hehe

(I don't like the new emoticons.  bleh. )

DougE6:
Kat
that was very well written, IMO. truely we need it proven to ourselves, individually, and to the all of humanity, collectively, just how evil evil is. We all need to learn, see and understand, in ways that will leave permanent deep lessons, unforgetable lessons, esperiential lessons, that we will NEVER want to be evil again. At this time in Gods working with us there is nothing more important than this that God wants to deeply deeply forever teach and internalize in us. And it is so important that it must be EXPERIENCED, not just given in theory.

The wages have to be REAL. The pain has to be REAL. The effort has to be REAL. The consequences have to be REAL. Not part way. Not just half way. No full throttle, full bore. The depth of evil and height of goodness MUST be experienced to be learned.

We must also LEARN to LOVE righteousness and HATE HATE wickedness. HATE it. So here we are born, our very start in life, into loving sin, loving wickedness, because it so resonates with our inner beast, our selfish carnal nature. IT TAKES A LOT FOR US TO ABANDON THIS INNER SELFISH SOMETIMES SECRET LOVE OF WICKEDNESS. Secret because we love it so much we hardly bring it to our conscious mind and admit it to ourselves that we don't want to change, we want to persist in this way. So the temperature of the fire of consequence that we must feel, the flames, must hurt, to get out attention, and to make us ponder and weigh...

So along the way, the HIGHER things, mercy, forgiveness, grace, sacrifice, courage, fidelity, perseverance, patience, kindness, long suffering, and on and on, all these virtues, can be understood... and FINALLY DESIRED, MORE than selfishness. More than sin. More than getting our own way. More than being our own god. Making our own rules and doing what we want to do. Being our own judge and standard.

We must admit that us sinful beings DO NOT deserve immortality. The wages truly are death.  When we are good and ready, when God has decided the workmanship in Christ Jesus is complete, we can be given immortality, as He gives us His Divine nature. Then yes, we can live forever. No one in the unthanktful, murderous, lying, carnal, backbiting, jealous, envious, stealing, hateful, prideful, arrogant, self serving state of carnality deserves or is entitled to anything but to the shortest probationary physical existence followed by DEATH.  Thank God that through Jesus we can be rescued from the body of sin, this carnal nature, and learn to love the things and ways of God, FAR MORE than the lusts of the flesh and the pride of life, and then, through Christ, forgiven and sanctified and renewed, be remade into His glorious ways.

It has to hurt. It has to be very very real. And the beauty of all the virtues, and the beauty and greatness of unselfish pure love can be CONTRASTED with overwhelming victory over the self love of the carnal beast.  There is nothing about the carnal beast that is praiseworthy, or needs to be retained. It is apt and correct that any carnal beast must feel pain and suffering commensurate with what the carnal beast is. I do not find it hard to understand at all.  I just find that the pain of it is and can be, mind blowing, to be one who wants to be earthly, carnal, and selfish. So be it. Let God pour out His wrath to change us.

River:
Hi Revilonivek, you wrote "scripture is clear that Jesus is the yahweh God of the old testament. why the brutality?approving of  killing, rape of women and children of other tribes not of God. killing pregnant women, babies and young children. its not their fault. they were born in different cultures, destroyed towns and all inhabitants in it if one or two was practicing a different religion. and they treated women as property, ruling his people with an iron fist. very strict and demands blood of innocent animals to cover people's sin and soothe Gods anger and now Jesus rules with mercy and compassion in the new testament and He himself was the God of the old testament? Bible says he never changes but this is obvious he changed?

 Maybe the scriptures aren't that clear. I mean you notice that this God of the Old Testament doesn't fit what we know of Jesus. You even state it is obvious he changed and also you say also the Bible says he doesn't change. So yeah, what is going on here? I even wonder why we just surrender all thought about this and just accept it as fact because we were told it was from God, or from a book that is supposedly from God. I personally applaud you not trying to sweep it under the rug. I tend to see the Old Testament as picture of the old man and the shadow and the incomplete. The school master teaching us. And I tend to see the New Testament as the new man and the reality and the complete. The realization and the revelation of this understanding. So most importantly lets hope we don't repeat some of those brutal acts you quoted in the physical and lets hope we also don't do it spiritually in our lives. But as I always say, I don't run the show. But I'm a striving!  :)

DougE6:
Hi John


--- Quote ---I love to sin.  I was never forced to sin.  I enjoyed every sin I ever committed and will commit.
--- End quote ---


Do you think that is the proper attitude towards sin for the follower of Christ?  Or, do you think God intends for us to keep that attitude? And if that attitude is in you, do you desire for that attitude to go away?


--- Quote ---When I do good, it is not me but God doing good through me
--- End quote ---

Can't argue with that.  :)


--- Quote ---I see nothing wrong with having sex with an unmarried woman
--- End quote ---

Someday you will. We are all to be renewed in our thoughts heart and minds.  God doesn't say it is wrong just because.


--- Quote ---God has made me to obey Him even though I don't understand why it is a sin, other than God saying so.  Which is good enough for me because He leads me to obey Him.

--- End quote ---

Can't argue with that.


--- Quote ---Also, what is this statement of yours, "Let God pour out His wrath to change us"?  I don't find that God deals with us in wrath.  Mostly, God has gently worked with me to change me.

--- End quote ---

Maybe the word wrath doesn't resonate with you.  Because it is true the Elect of God are not appointed to be children of wrath (meaning facing eonian judgments).  But this does not mean that Gods attitude towards sin and unrighteousness is watered down or weak with his chosen ones. Even as He does pity me, and deals with in LOVE, and gentleness, He has spanked me, and that spanking is very thorough and does yield the peaceable fruit of righteousness.


1Pe 4:17  For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?

Heb 12:6  For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.
Heb 12:7  If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?
Heb 12:8  But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye ********, and not sons.

I have felt His chastisement, and it has caused me to hate wickedness and despise the sin in me...and thirst and long for righteousness.  I hope that means God has received me as a son, and is dealing with me as a son.  And has scourged me when necessary.  His discipline hurts. But afterwards, it has such reward.

Heb 12:10  For they verily for a few days chastened us after their own pleasure; but he for our profit, that we might be partakers of his holiness.
Heb 12:11  Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby.

God has dealt with me with great tenderness and lovingkindness, and has applied a strong rod of correction, too. And it was grievous, but taught me obedience and changed my heart to do as I wrote...to love righteousness and hate sin and wickedness, and to hunger and thirst for righteousness. And yet, and yes, I SO AGREE His loving kindness and tenderness is better than life.

Revilonivek:
Thank you all for your replies. I wanted to read all of it before I replied back.


What i can tell you is It shakes my foundation pretty much with questions.


Some of you say there are so much evil because God is trying to help us hate evil so we will turn. I would accept that but more questions spurts from that like.. Why did God approve it and sees it as righteous? There's big difference between kill and murder in the old tesatment. God gave these people the 10 commandments, and one of them is not to kill. Apparently, there's a difference. You are held responible for murder if you do not have the seal of God's approval to kill. They killed and saw it righeous because God approved it. Why does God see that killing other tribes's pregnant women, adorable babies, little children and so on is righeous?  I have seen so many like this in other religions. Their gods has zero tolerance for sin and infidels. anyone who doesnt follow your beliefs and believes they deserve to die. That is the mindset of many religions. That is the thing. I am bothered by that..babies and little children as we know, are innocent, they are not evil yet. who justifies killing them just becuase they are of different tribe, different culture, different sets of beliefs.  Even to this day, some in christendom, are still living in the physical, has the old testament mindset as we see today.. like Kenya. They were taught the bible by missionaries, you should look it up on you tube the horrible things they do just because they feel they are doing God service. They burn anyone who is caught sinning.. right on the spot. IT is what jews did in the old tesatment, they have zero tolerance for sin because they feel it would anger God. There are still many who are still stuck in the old tesatment mindset. I am HORRIFIED by what I saw. in Kenya, they burn their sinners ALIVE. They bind them, fuel them with gas, and set them ablaze and let others watch.. just because they stole a potato, suspected of witchcraft, and so on.. a preview of what jews used to do in the old testament..

Next question... John of Kentucky said he's happy God approved of killing innocent animals... YOu misunderstand me... Jews in the old testament do not eat their sacrfices. They just offer sacrifices to God in hopes of asking for forgiveness and soothe God's anger  My question is.. if God is not physical.. doesnt eat or drink, or has need for anything physical. Why need the kill innoncent animals? how does animals blood forgive our sins.. all we do is kill innocent animals and offer sacrifices. I have read somewhere in the old tesatment they even did human sacrifice. How does blood sacrifice justify anything? they cannot eat their sacrifices. They just give it to God by slaughtering them and burning them.  Its like the mayans but alot worse.. Mayans use human sacrifices more than animals.. but if you witness it back then witht he jews. you would be horrified. but they back then feel they are doing God service by slaughtering animals and offering their blood and flesh.. I just don't understand... God is not physical.

lastly.. about God.. If Jesus was the yahweh God of the old testament.. WHat he taught his people in the old testament, he told them to take sabbath seriously, to take everything seriously and has zero tolerance for sin. death is automatic if you break rules. I can see why the pharisees are the way they are.. when jesus came. He ridicluled them for taking so seriously instead of looking at the spirit of the law when JEsus himself was the yahweh God of the old testament and  had zero tolerance for sin.

and other thing.. when the apostles asked Jesus to see the Father.. Jesus told them they are looking at the father.. Jesus was the yahweh God of the old tesatment, it was the God they were following. the jews considered yahweh the Father by the looks of it? HOw can Jesus be the God of the old testament if he is not the Father himself? It is a bit confusing?  Is he the Father God or the Son God? Is he the Father God of the old tesatment.. scripture say NO one has ever heard or spoken or seen any shape of the Father God.. and Jesus is the God of the old tesatment that the pharisses consider the Father. Please help?

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