Deserving Death

[Gina]

I'm struggling with the words "deserving death" I've seen throughout the bible.  I hate to bring this up, but it's really buggin me. 

See, I can understand that "dying we shall (must) die."  But having to die because God must refashion us is not quite as offensive in light of the fact that God made us weak.  To me, saying we deserve death because of our weakness of the flesh and propensity to sin because of it, is like saying to a person with a jelly spine, "This is how you walk upright..."  and then  when he isn't able to do what you say, proceed to say to him:  "What?!  You can't walk upright?!  You deserve to die."  It sounds so ludicrous.

Please be gentle with me in your responses, as you always are.  I mean no disrespect to God or to you.  Thank you.

[DougE6]

Hi Gina

God has given us our life! Before He made us, we did not even exist.  We knew nothing. We felt nothing. We had no consciousness. We had no fellowship. It is a great gift to be! To be called into existence.  God has given you and me existence. This gives Him great rights over us and great responsiibilities towards us.  That is why God even says 'Children obey your parents. Parents have the right to expect obedience from the care and sacrifice they put forth into their children.

The first thing that we need to do in response to the gift of life, is to be grateful. (now all my pronouns are not directed at you personally, it is just my way of speaking). Grateful that we have been given life. Even more, that we are being fashioned into His image, into gods.  What else would you call someone who is in the family of God? Are not children like their parents? When God is done with us, and Jesus is our elder brother, and we are like Him, what should we call ourselves?  Should we be grateful for the destiny and plan He has for us?

yes God has given us weak spines. So we cannot walk upright. And in our natural carnal state, we don't want a strong spine. We are happy with our weak spine, even though God tells us to walk upright!  And even though with our weak spine we are unable to do so. But you have forgotten one thing in your illustration.  GOD says HE will give us the strength to walk upright and He will give us strong spines!!  So what if we start out with jelly spines.  It must be very necessary.

And God has every right, as the Creator to start us off with weak jelly like spines. Additionally, He has the right, because we do PREFER and CARRY out weak spine activities, even MORESO as He has put in us a conscience to accuse, and has made His laws known, He has the right to call us to account and has the right to arrange us to suffer consequences when we refuse to obey and prefer our weak spine! God does not force you to carry out your weak spine activities. He has so arranged things that you do these activities right from your heart. And He has made a just and lawful decree. That all weak jelly spine activites have wages, and these wages are death. And when you think about it, a selfish carnal being frankly deserves death. I don't want no selfish despot given the privelige of living forever.

And then God the Creator, who made you weak, took it upon Himself in the person of His Son Jesus to EMPTY HIMSELF and join you in your weakness, and DIE. And he took it upon Himself to make His Son suffer pains in all the ways that this world would make us suffer, and He decided that Jesus would suffer a death by torture, so not only would Jesus die as a sin offering to settle the wages and allow God to grant etenal life, but that God through Jesus didn't ask us to go through anything He Himself was not willing to feel and experience in the same weak body that we have. 

So God gave us life, then sent His Son to die and experience and share in our sufferings,  AND is going to take us up to where His Son is, and eventually set us in the heavenlies with Him.

So His plan is NOT ludicrous from where I sit. I am actually in awe. I am in awe that God had decided to make a family and make me part of it.  And I have no problem with Him calling me to account, and the death sentence for my personal crimes. I am very well aware that my sins, even if done from a weak spine, were done with my complete compliance and agreement, and I repent for that is dust and ashes.  And i think the plan is incredibly wise and beautiful. To start us off one way, to teach us to hate that way we are born into, to hate the beast within; to experience FIRST HAND what having a jelly spine is like; so eventually we will with all our hearts not want a jelly spine anymore...and then so appreciate the strong upright spine He will give us. And so appreciate the eternal life He will then give us.  And so marvel at the depth of His love illustrated by giving His Son to die for us. And by giving us a great understanding how serious a problem having a weak jelly spine is,  no one will ever want to go back to that weak state again, and everyone will appreciate fully the gifts of God which include His attributes, and which CANNOT be given unless they are appreciated to the highest extent.

[Gina]

Meh~ 

Doug, thanks, but I don't think you got what I'm saying.  I'm not arguing that we have to die, I'm saying "deserving" of it.  If you sin because you were made too weak to resist the temptation to sin, it's still like asking a person with Down Syndrome or with Alzheimer's or Autism to behave properly in an adult setting.  I get that we have to die and that we must die in order to be refashioned.  I'm not arguing with that.  I don't have a problem with that.  Volunteering to sin?  Sure!  I volunteer gladly because that's what my flesh was designed to do!  Volunteer to please me.  I DO see the benefit in behaving properly! 

I just looked up the definition of deserve and it means "fit" or "merit" or "worthy", as in being "fit for destruction."   

The bible says that the wages that sin pays is death, but that sounds more palatable than hearing you "deserve" death.  I could stand to hear I need or must die, because that sounds like I have to be refashioned. 

I guess some people need to hear they "deserve" death in order for it to get their attention because they're so dense, nothing else will penetrate.

I respond better to:  You shall (must) die because to me it sounds more compassionate, lol.

Oh well.  Thanks, Doug.

[DougE6]

Hi Gina

I understand your question. But I don't grasp the understanding of the emotion behind it. It seems like you do not actually "feel" you are deserving of death, even though you have done the actions, and did the actions with intention, on purpose, because you were designed to be weak form the beginning. I think that is what you are saying?

I think Paul in Romans 1 argued about our guilt and deserving death. Paul was the very one who wrote of vessels of honor/dishonor and Pharaoh and Gods sovereignity, etc, . Yet YET... he made it clear that God left man deeply accountable even in the midst of His sovereignity...

Rom 1:18  For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth.
Rom 1:19  For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them.
Rom 1:20  For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse.

Paul one of the worlds greatest exponents of Gods sovereignity, says man is without excuse in the depravity of His actions. And what about our conscience? Does not our conscience also bear witness against us?

Rom 2:15  They show that the work of the law is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness, and their conflicting thoughts accuse or even excuse them
Rom 2:16  on that day when, according to my gospel, God judges the secrets of men by Christ Jesus.

People are so depraved they KNOW they are guilty and deserve death, yet continue sinning....

Rom 1:32  Though they know God's decree that those who practice such things deserve to die, they not only do them but give approval to those who practice them.

And they give approval to others unrighteousness, and celebrate in it.

I feel my guilt. I don't know about others, but most people in the world unless they are totally hardened, having a seared conscience, feels guilt and inner accusation of some sort. It actually helps keep them in line.

Is it possible that people having the understanding that it is God who made us weak actually begin to let a carnal understanding feel "excused"  about their personal sins?  I think that is spiritually very dangerous. 

You cannot emphasize Gods sovereignity to the point that you think you can excuse yourself and say you do not "deserve" death. You do. You did the crime, you do the time.

God is WAY smarter than you.  He has in His sovereignity, given you enough participation in the matter that He is FULLY JUSTIFIED in charging you with a crime and carrying out the penalty.

And it is a twisting of His sovereignity to attempt to use that as an excuse.  the scriptures say ..You are without excuse.

[Deborah-Leigh]

Hi Gina

Just check out, WHO is saying "deserving death"...

Mar 14:62  Jesus said, "I am. And 'you will see the Son of Man seated at the right hand of the Power' and 'coming with the clouds of heaven.'"
Mar 14:63  Then the high priest tore his clothes and said, "Why do we still need witnesses?
Mar 14:64  You have heard his blasphemy! What is your verdict?" All of them condemned him as deserving death.

Of they that accuse, Jesus said :

Joh 5:45  Do not suppose that I will be the one to accuse you before the Father. Your accuser is Moses, on whom you have set your hope.

Death reigned from Adam to Moses and for those who shall not enter the promised land of the Spirit of NT Liberty....

Gal 5:4  Christ has become nothing to any of you who are seeking acceptance with God through the Law: you have fallen away from grace.

The fallen away from grace, doesn't end there. We know all will be saved.

Arc

[Dennis Vogel]

I'm struggling with the words "deserving death" I've seen throughout the bible.  I hate to bring this up, but it's really buggin me. 

See, I can understand that "dying we shall (must) die."  But having to die because God must refashion us is not quite as offensive in light of the fact that God made us weak.  To me, saying we deserve death because of our weakness of the flesh and propensity to sin because of it, is like saying to a person with a jelly spine, "This is how you walk upright..."  and then  when he isn't able to do what you say, proceed to say to him:  "What?!  You can't walk upright?!  You deserve to die."  It sounds so ludicrous.

Please be gentle with me in your responses, as you always are.  I mean no disrespect to God or to you.  Thank you.

As Ray is fond of saying: "We only experience Life. We cannot experience Death."

Steve Jobs: 'Death is life's best invention'  http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-15197932

There are lessons we can only learn by experience. We cannot truly appreciate life without death.

[Gina]

Thanks everybody!  You guys are so sweet to respond.  Yeah, I understand and accept that dying is the only way to get to live.  I agree that I need to change.

Where my disconnect is, if I had no choice but to sin, how did I earn death?  I know I've gotta have it. 

But to me, death is like the gift of life; I didn't earn it, it's a gift!  lol

Oh well, you all are so sweet respond to this thick chick. 

p.s.  Doug, you're not grasping the "emotion" behind my question maybe because you're reading too much into what I am saying.  Try not to read too much into what I've said.  It's just a question.  I'm just having a little disconnect.

[DougE6]

Gina is correct, we all "earned" death

Rom 6:23  For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

"wages" are DEFINITELY something your earn. We do earn death.

I think your question " I had no choice" is a wrong question. You always choose. In each and every sin you DO choose.

You DID NOT choose to have been born in sin as David said...

Psa 51:5  Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin did my mother conceive me.

David understood that. YET He also understood He was guilty and deserved whatever God would mandate for his sins of adultery and murder. WE ALL NEED TO HAVE HIS SAME ATTITUDE AS WRITTEN BELOW THAT DAVID PENNED LONG AGO....


Have mercy on me, O God, according to your steadfast love; according to your abundant mercy blot out my transgressions.
Psa 51:2  Wash me thoroughly from my iniquity, and cleanse me from my sin!
Psa 51:3 For I know my transgressions, and my sin is ever before me.
Psa 51:4  Against you, you only, have I sinned and done what is evil in your sight, so that you may be justified in your words and blameless in your judgment.

Psa 51:6  Behold, you delight in truth in the inward being, and you teach me wisdom in the secret heart.
Psa 51:7  Purge me with hyssop, and I shall be clean; wash me, and I shall be whiter than snow. Psa 51:8  Let me hear joy and gladness; let the bones that you have broken rejoice.
Psa 51:9  Hide your face from my sins, and blot out all my iniquities.
Psa 51:10  Create in me a clean heart, O God, and renew a right spirit within me. Psa 51:11  Cast me not away from your presence, and take not your Holy Spirit from me.
Psa 51:12  Restore to me the joy of your salvation, and uphold me with a willing spirit.
Psa 51:13  Then I will teach transgressors your ways, and sinners will return to you.

Notice David says MY SINS. No one else's sins, and he doesn't DARE lay any charge to God in the matter. In fact David says... so that you may be justified in your words and blameless in your judgment.   David pleads for his heart to be cleansed. There is NOT even a hint of "God you made me do this"  David fully acknowledges he was formed in iniquity and conceived in sin, YET that is NOT used as an excuse for his action but ONLY to add to his sorrowful lament before God.  I also, along wih David,  fully acknowledge my deep iniquity inside me also, but through a broken and contrite heart I do not use that inborn iniquity as an excuse, NO I want that inborn iniquity to die, to be removed,  along with all my willful sins being cleansed and cleaned away.

[Samson]

I'm struggling with the words "deserving death" I've seen throughout the bible.  I hate to bring this up, but it's really buggin me. 

See, I can understand that "dying we shall (must) die."  But having to die because God must refashion us is not quite as offensive in light of the fact that God made us weak.  To me, saying we deserve death because of our weakness of the flesh and propensity to sin because of it, is like saying to a person with a jelly spine, "This is how you walk upright..."  and then  when he isn't able to do what you say, proceed to say to him:  "What?!  You can't walk upright?!  You deserve to die."  It sounds so ludicrous.

Please be gentle with me in your responses, as you always are.  I mean no disrespect to God or to you.  Thank you.

Hi Gina,

I think that I might know where you are coming from, it's sorta like the "feeling," I didn't ask to be Born, so why do I have to experience Evil or the suffer from the wicked acts of others, So then, Why do I DESERVE death, since I didn't ask to be here and didn't have any choice in what transpires thereafter. I'm checking My Dr. Strong's Hebrew/Greek Bible Dictionary and also My Esword, because the key word in your question is DESERVE. I don't know why your asking this question, does it have something to do with emotionally grasping the Why's or possible unfairness of this ultimate fate. From Our Carnal, Finite, Limited Human understanding, not much of anything seems fair as to the process, because I can relate to the Theme of your Post. Create Humans with Hearts exceedingly weak that choose to Sin, suffer the consequences from those Sins and for the most part, only God's Elect learn the lesson's from these trials and sufferings to make better choices and for the most part, the rest of Humanity experiences minimal change in this Age(Their short Lifetime).

Now, I didn't find the word DESERVE mentioned too often, although My NWT renders the Greek Word Axios as DESERVE, but the KJV renders it WORTHY. Lets see what it means in the Greek, maybe it doesn't have the same force or strength that We feel from the English, ie- " Nobody deserves any of this." Please Read Below !

Act 23:29  Whom I perceived to be accused of questions of their law, but to have nothing laid to his charge worthy of death or of bonds. Note: Worthy=Deserve

G514
ἄξιος
axios
ax'-ee-os
Probably from G71; deserving, comparable or suitable (as if drawing praise): - due reward, meet, [un-] worthy.

Axios is derived from Ago, See Below !

G71
ἄγω
agō
ag'-o
A primary verb; properly to lead; by implication to bring, drive, (reflexively) go, (specifically) pass (time), or (figuratively) induce: - be, bring (forth), carry, (let) go, keep, lead away, be open.

Other scriptures using this Greek word Axios.

Act 26:31  And when they were gone aside, they talked between themselves, saying, This man doeth nothing worthy of death or of bonds.

Luk 23:15  No, nor yet Herod: for I sent you to him; and, lo, nothing worthy of death is done unto him.

Rom 1:32  Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

Note: Worthy or Deserving of Death from the passage sounds like the outcome of reaping the consequences of what one Sows.

1Ti 1:15  This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.

Comment: All of the above Scriptures use the Greek Word Axios for "Worthy" or "Deserving," And once again the meanings as mentioned above from Dr. Strong have some latitude like: "Due Reward,"  "Bring Forth," "Suitable or Comparable."

Now, you mentioned in your Post about being gentle in response to Your question, please extend the same to Me, afterall, as John Michael reminds Me, I don't do well with Intellectual Women with the emotional nuances, it's that Male/Female Brain thing. But, to some degree, I agree that on an emotional Human Level with Finite Minds and exceedingly weak Hearts, there seems to be several things We don't deserve, but We didn't make the rules, Our Creator God did, so all We can do is try our best, care about Our choices, but don't worry and Pray incessantly to God to CAUSE in us to make better choices. Logically, what else can We do, even if we don't like it. Many times it's better when One Woman answers another Woman on these Emotional related questions, because sometimes I have no idea as to why God is doing this particular way, but my knowledge & experience is limited in comparison to Him.

Hope this Helps and doesn't get Me in trouble, sometimes it might with My Wife, because sometimes I'm capable of "driving Women up the wall," like Mr. Spock,  .

[Gina]

Thanks, Samson!  That's starting to make sense.  It's like, "You do this, this will be the outcome, this is what you get, it leads to this [death, in this particular instance] ." 

(I'm sorry, but please, don't confuse  me with your wife, Samson. lol.  I don't know how you guys (dougE6) are reading emotion into my question.  I'm not angry.  I'm asking a question.  There's no anger or "emotion" behind it.)

[Gina]

I guess what's confusing to me is how God says, "dying you shall die." 
We're in a state of decay / dying from the moment of birth.

We aren't born sinning, we were born dying.

I agree:  We sin and we need to be changed and death is the necessary part of that change. 

[Samson]

Thanks, Samson!  That's starting to make sense.  It's like, "You do this, this will be the outcome, this is what you get, it leads to this [death, in this particular instance] ." 

(I'm sorry, but please, don't confuse  me with your wife, Samson. lol.  I don't know how you guys (dougE6) are reading emotion into my question.  I'm not angry.  I'm asking a question.  There's no anger or "emotion" behind it.)

Now that's weird, not you Gina, you just edited your Post and I just lost mine, I tried to respond to your Post and it disappeared and then I read your response & the subsequent response, boy, I wondered if God pulled the Trigger. Just wanted you to know that no offense meant on My part, was just adding a little levity to my attempt to discuss WORTHY OR DESERVING, because on an intellectual Scripturally supported Level, I understand all of this, but on a Human Level with a Finite, exceedingly weak heart I sometimes can't come to terms with why We deserve anything like suffering, an experience of Evil to the horrifying degree We witness, if not personally, through the experience of others and even Dying, including the process from day one, because as I stated, none of Us asked to be Born or had any choice in this matter or the Parents We inherited, Our Genetic Makeup or the Environment We grew up in. All of this is puzzling. at times, but God's experience & knowledge far exceeds mine, so leaving it in His hands and trying to make the best choices We can, Praying incessantly for His direction to help Us make good choices, caring about the choices We make, but not worrying about any of it. There's a big difference between Caring and Worrying about the choices We make.

Although, I believe your question has merit, based on the meaning of Axios, Worthy or Deserving could mean: " Just the Outcome or justification resulting from an individuals course as shown from Romans. 1:26-32, they reaped what they sowed as a consequence of practicing Sin with no evidence of remorse or even caring.

Carry On, Samson.

[Deborah-Leigh]

...Ray is fond of saying: "We only experience Life. We cannot experience Death."

We cannot truly appreciate life without death.

Maybe we CAN appreciate life more, WITHOUT death! Maybe thats not only the lesson but the destination ~

Excellent quote from Ray. Thanks for that Dennis. I am not trying to rock the boat. Your thoughts inspire...Thank you!

[Gina]

Hi, Samson

That makes way more sense -- reaping what we sow.  We definitely sow to the flesh and death is the outcome.

Thank you for your kind reply.  I appreciate that you can see where I'm coming from.  I'm not trying to argue, I'm just trying to understand.  And you helped me immensely. 

(I'm sorry for editing my post.  I do that a lot.  I will eventually learn to use the "preview" feature.  lol  Thanks for your patience.)
 

[GaryK]

quote]

As Ray is fond of saying: "We only experience Life. We cannot experience Death."

Steve Jobs: 'Death is life's best invention'  http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-15197932

There are lessons we can only learn by experience. We cannot truly appreciate life without death.

I'm struggling with the words "deserving death" I've seen throughout the bible. . 

See, I can understand that "dying we shall (must) die."  But having to die because God must refashion us is not quite as offensive in light of the fact that God made us weak.

Gina, you're talking only of the physical death.

What about dying in another sense of the word?    Dennis stated of Ray that we cannot experience 'death'.  Physically, yes I agree.  But we do experience 'death' while on this earth, or at least, some do.  We die in our carnal desires or, at least we hope we do, as we move along the grace-line toward becoming Christ-like.   That's dying.  And those desires deserve death.

And too I think we can experience, perhaps, another kind of death before the physical.  By that I mean Ray states in his papers that we can learn to hate God.  There's a lot to that, more than can be described in a paragraph this...learning to hate God....but in it's own kind it's a spiritual death, of sorts, and it's painful, agonizing, and dis-orienting....internally...spiritually.  Pride plays there more than one can know, unless, one experiences that sense of death.   But I think it's also part of seeing and learning how beastly the beast inside us all is really is, and the death of that beast is spiritually agonizing.    Didn't the prodigal son experience this spiritual loss?   What about 'losing our first love'?  Isn't that dying also, in the spiritual sense?

I could be way off.

I suppose I could have/should have started another thread on a 'spiritual death' and not disrupt your train of thought on the physical------(moderators, the delete button is a hand-breadth away.........feel free).

[Dennis Vogel]

Sorry, I do not have time to read every reply. Perhaps you are referring to the old self dying which we all have to kill the old/carnal self and become reborn.

[Deborah-Leigh]

1Co 15:26  The last ENEMY that is to be overthrown is Death;
1Co 15:27  for He will have put all things in subjection under His feet. And when He shall have declared that "All things are in subjection," it will be with the manifest exception of Him who has reduced them all to subjection to Him.
1Co 15:28  But when the whole universe has been made subject to Him, then the Son Himself will also become subject to Him who has made the universe subject to Him, in order that GOD may be all in all. 

[lilitalienboi16]

I guess what's confusing to me is how God says, "dying you shall die." 
We're in a state of decay / dying from the moment of birth.

We aren't born sinning, we were born dying.

I agree:  We sin and we need to be changed and death is the necessary part of that change.

Hi Gina,

I think this little portion of ray might help you understand and put into perspective the "We aren't born sinning" statement you made.

You are also wrong in suggesting that sin did not come into the garden until Eve actually ATE THE FORBIDDEN FRUIT.  Not true.  Let's read it if you haven't read my "lake of fire" series:  "And when the woman saw that the tree was GOOD FOR FOOD [lust of the flesh--this is SIN], and that it was pleasant to THE EYES [lust of the eyes--this is SIN], and a tree to be desired to MAKE ONE WISE [pride of life--this is SIN]....." (Gen. 3:6).  Eve committed EVERY CATEGORY OF SIN IN THE ENTIRE WORLD  B-E-F-O-R-E  SHE EVER ATE OF THE FORBIDDEN FRUIT.  "For ALL that is in the world [A-L-L the sins of the world come under these three categories], THE lust of the flesh, AND THE lust of the eyes, AND THE pride of life, IS NOT OF THE fATHER, BUT IS OF THE WORLD" (I John 2:15).

    "For the creature [Adam and Eve and all their descendants] was MADE [by GOD] subject to VANITY [Margin: 'futility--failure'], not willingly, but by reason of Him [God] Who has subjected the same in HOPE" (Rom. 8:20).

SRC= http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,3702.msg27912.html#msg27912

Seems like we are certainly born with everything that makes us sinning machines. Born commiting an act of sin? No... but born with the ability to sin? (Weak hearts!) Very much so. Does this equate to being deserving of death? I don't know, I suppose that's something we all need to ask ourselves. Like some have said, none of us asked to be born. I suppose I could see the argument and where the emotional frustration or confusion comes into play.

This is what I found and I thought it might be worthy to add to this conversation. There is more about this, where ray talks about sin and adam's role in all in it etc.. but I can't find that stuff right now.

Anyhooooooooooooooo thats just what I was thinking this morning. Hope it helps some.

God bless,

Alex

[Dave in Tenn]

As Ray is fond of saying: "We only experience Life. We cannot experience Death."

http://bible-truths.com/death.htm

...niether death nor life...can seperate us from the Love of God in Jesus Christ our Lord.

[GaryK]

Sorry, I do not have time to read every reply. Perhaps you are referring to the old self dying which we all have to kill the old/carnal self and become reborn.

That's only part.

If you don't know what I mean by coming face to face, after years of believing deeply that one has a deep love and respect for God only to witness a certainly unexpected growing hatred that harbors inside a mind against God in a full........or a proportional sense even, the dis-proportionate swelling of a pride and then, hopefully, the dying off....... of that prideful selfishness....

.....then you can't identify.     

Must be my own personality flaw.

Perhaps Ray is incorrect in that teaching of discovering a hate for God, or perhaps I didn't understand his point.   

I'll put wager that I didn't understand what Ray was talking about.   

Peace, out.