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Jesus: "the CREATED of the Father"
santgem:
--- Quote from: Kat on August 16, 2014, 04:41:32 PM ---Santgem, if you consider that the Son was "the beginning of the creation of God" (Rev 3:14) then He cannot be eternal, as eternity does not have a beginning. The Son is what God brought forth at the beginning/first of this creation, also He is the Alpha of this creation, the Son is all about this creation.
Rev 22:13 I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End, the First and the Last.”
The eternal God brought the Son forth/out and by that became the Father and the Son was not with the Father before that or God would not have needed to bring Him forth. Now before/beyond this creation, I have no idea what the Father is/has, but I have no doubt it is very very much more than just this. The Son is for this creation and He was brought forth for that purpose.
Col 1:16 For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him.
v. 17 And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
--- End quote ---
Hi Kat,
Greetings!
The Father is not eternal and the Son is not eternal but God is eternal.
The Father and the Son had their existence when God became Father to a Son.
Both the Father and the Son are God. The Word is with God and the Word is God.
Before there was no Father and a Son that so called "Son" was the WORD and the WORD was with God and the WORD was God.
The Son is eternal when there was nothing except God because before he became a Son, He is the WORD with God and the WORD is GOD and God is eternal.
for the Father himself doth love you, because me ye have loved, and ye have believed that I from God came forth;I came forth from the Father, and have come to the world; again I leave the world, and go on unto the Father.'Jhn 16:27-28
God was called "Father" when the Son comes out from God. The Son is that Word with God. When there was nothing except God there was no Father and a Son, the Father and a Son had their existence when God became Father to a Son but before that it is only God.
You say the the Son cannot be eternal. the Son cannot be eternal when he comes out from the Father, but when He was still the Word with God He is eternal. The Word is the "I AM" and the Word is the Son who dwells among us and the Word is God.
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God;this one was in the beginning with God; Jhn 1:1-2
Kat:
Okay Santgem, I see what you are saying, I just don't see it that way. This physical creation was made in the way that it is, and we are made to look as we do and to use speech as a means to communicate. We were also made with a psyche that needs a God and He would need to be very similar to what we are for us to accept (which I do not believe the Father is). So He first brought forth the Word, God, the Son and we can relate to Him as He has an image and has a like manner of speech like us.
But I also see that this as a unique creation... I don't believe there is something else like this world that would need the Word before He was brought forth, so He purpose is just for this creation. So God determined to bring this creation into existence, He also determined that we would need a God that we relate to, and so He first brought forth the Son and from His beginning He had an image and a voice 'like' what we would have. I believe the way He did this, was to bring forth/create/product the Son that was another part/extension of Himself, then He used this Son-God, to do everything concerning this creation. That's how I see it...
mercy, peace and love
Kat
indianabob:
Hi folks,
This is a once over lightly of the idea that Jesus was the logos of YHVH from eternity past. I've read the evidence as presented and still cannot see it or agree that it makes sense to this old man.
Genesis says "in the beginning YHVH ....
John 1:1 says "in the beginning was the logos and the logos was with YHVH and the logos was YHVH.
To me that says that "the logos of YHVH was YHVH and YHVH was the logos". In other words these two designations are one and the same. One being the speaker and the other being the thought spoken and expressed by that self same speaker. Not another person.
There is nothing here about Lord Jesus; not yet!
2. Much has been said about the word god in English scripture.
The word god means a lot more than the original creator of all.
In the O.T., N. T. god can mean a human lord or master e.g.
So we have to check each and every time to see from which of many words "god" was translated. Same concern with LORD and Lord and lord which are three ways of spelling the designation of a superior being whether they be GOD, angel or flesh and blood.
The English or KJV seems to use the standard that LORD refers to Father God [YHVH] and Lord refers to the SON of Father God the man Jesus or Lord Jesus. see below...
King James Bible
A Psalm of David. The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.
= = =
Aramaic Bible in Plain English
Lord Jehovah said to my Lord, “Sit at my right hand until I put your enemies as a stool for your feet.”
= = =
American Standard Version
Jehovah saith unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, Until I make thine thine enemies thy footstool.
Young's Literal Translation
A Psalm of David. The affirmation of Jehovah to my Lord: 'Sit at My right hand, Till I make thine enemies thy footstool.
= = =
In all the above instances YHVH is a separate name from Lord Jesus.
AND there does not seem to be an indication that Jesus was the logos of YHVH prior to Jesus conception in Mary his mother.
Question:
If the word or logos of YHVH, Father God, was always the power manifested in the O. T. in the Pillar of Cloud, in the Pillar of fire, in the Burning bush and even in Eden the Garden of God speaking with Adam and Eve. Then why was it necessary to believe or imagine that the MAN Jesus was the one who did all those miraculous deeds for Father YHVH GOD? Why not another manifestation of YHVH or Father GOD through the agency of HIS logos.
After all when an angel or another manifestation of GOD appears to humans it is to be considered GOD, since it is GOD's appointed agent.
Isn't it even more scriptural to understand that the logos or the word expressed of YHVH became flesh for the first time in Lord Jesus, at Jesus' conception and not before?
Yes of course it is the same "LOGOS" working in Jesus during his life on the earth as mortal man. Yes the man Jesus is now, since his ascension, the living representative of YHVH and having full authority to act for YHVH in all things, because Jesus is now the embodiment of the word (logos) of YHVH.
We could also note that when we who are to be the very body of Lord Jesus in the better resurrection, we will be just like him since we will see him as he is in his, Jesus' immortal-spiritual state.
So once again I must ask; why is it necessary to believe that Jesus the man has in some spiritual form always consciously existed along side the Father as the Father's word or "logos"?
Scripture teaches that Lord Jesus was known to Father God from the beginning. Couldn't that just mean that in the mind of God a special man was planned from the very beginning? A man to be kept perfect for the righteous purpose and then elevated or appointed as planned, to the very family of God to serve in a position of honor and responsibility for all time to come? A future event guaranteed by the power and mind of Father God.
Isn't that what we may expect from a loving God who desires to share HIS creation with billions of SONS with Lord Jesus the head of all, other than the Father?
1Co 15:27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.
1Co 15:28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.
cheekie3:
Kat / John from Kentucky -
The Father is the source of all Life.
There was a time when The Father was alone.
The Father then brought forth or birthed Jesus - whom He calls His Son.
If there is no separation between The Father and His Son - how come Jesus died and His Father brought Him back to life.
Is it not TRUE that The Father and The Son are unified as The One True God - yet are both inseparable and separate at the same time.
When we are all Holy Sons of God - will we not all be inseparable from our Heavenly Father yet all separate.
George.
Kat:
--- Quote ---So once again I must ask; why is it necessary to believe that Jesus the man has in some spiritual form always consciously existed along side the Father as the Father's word or "logos"?
--- End quote ---
Hi Bob, well we have to considered what Christ Jesus said Himself.
John 8:58 Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM.”
John 1:14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.
So Gen. 1:1 says that the Word was in the beginning, I believe this is speaking of the beginning of this creation and this Word spoken of is the God and Creator of this creation. But then He came to live among us as flesh and blood to have a human experience and to die as we do. This was His ultimate act of love to come down from His place on high and live in this world and literally die a cruel death, and doing this, as the perfect God of creation, His life was worth more than all of human life put together, therefore He qualified to pay/cover all sin. And not only that, but He also was first resurrected to open the way for us all eventually to follow in resurrection.
Rev 22:13 “I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End, the First and the Last.”
--- Quote ---If there is no separation between The Father and His Son - how come Jesus died and His Father bright Him back to life.
--- End quote ---
Hi George, when you consider that the Son was not always a part of the Father, He did not always exist. But then that gives you a way to see that the Father brought Him forth and could then removed Him for that period of time, His Spirit did return to the Father (Luke 23:46). He was actually able to emptied Himself of the glory that gave Him spiritual LIFE, so He could be lower and born as flesh and then die. So He could and did lose His existence for the purpose of death... see what I mean?
Phil 2:7 but emptied himself, by taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men.The Father is not dependent on the Son, but the Son is certainly dependent on the Father.
Heb 2:9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels, for the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, that He, by the grace of God, might taste death for everyone.
The Father could do this the same way He brought the Son into existence, the Father is not limited in any way, so this is certainly possible. He could do this with the Son because the Son is not all of God, but the part that the Father brought into being to be God of this creation, even to the point of dying for us all.
But the Son is God of this creation and always will be and He in so being has the Holy Spirit without measure.
John 3:34 For he whom God has sent utters the words of God, for he gives the Spirit without measure.
That makes me think that when the elect are made "like" Christ at resurrection they too will have the Holy Spirit without measure and this will give the elect that connection, oneness and like the Son they too will become a part of God, like Christ always has been. For now we are being prepared for what is to come at resurrection, for now the elect have the guaranteed, the promised that they too will be one with God when Christ returns to rule the world.
1 John 3:2 Beloved, now we are children of God; and it has not yet been revealed what we shall be, but we know that when He is revealed, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is.
Eph 1:11 In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will,
v. 12 that we who first trusted in Christ should be to the praise of His glory.
v. 13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise,
v. 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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