> General Discussions
Sinners PRECEDE the Pharisees into the kingdom of God
Kat:
Hi Denise,
--- Quote ---John kept preaching that the kingdom of God is at hand and we are to repent. How do we repent to what? to a higher Christ self in your mind? The NT says we are to renew our minds constantly. How do we understand what repentance mean. Of course it means change to something else because you see it that its the better way to do it? see it as freedom-I know it is harder to repent without the Spirit of God. Jesus had the spirit of God, mercy, love, kindness, gentleness, slow to anger, and so on, it opened the sinners' eyes and they were led and wanted the same thing Jesus had and was able to repent easier than the pharisees?
--- End quote ---
First off, it is impossible to repent without the Holy Spirit opening your eyes to
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,3709.0.html ----------------
REPENTANCE
Repent means to turn around, to go the other way. Whatever you are doing that’s wrong and sinful and evil and carnal and worldly and everything else, you turn around, you 'repent' and you go the other direction. The scriptures mention a couple of words:
Matthew 18:3 talks about being converted
Matthew 19:28 talks about being regenerated
1Peter 1:3 talks about being born again
John 3:3 talks about being born again
What are all those things? They’re all one and the same, there’s no difference. Being begotten anew, being born again, being regenerated, being converted. They are all the same and this is what we all want to do so that we can take on more knowledge and live more Godly, and reach this goal.
We all sin. Sin has to go through three things: cleansing, repentance, forgiveness. Does anybody know the order of these things?
This is the order of what happens to sin:
1. Forgiveness
2. Repentance
3. Cleansing
God does not cleanse anybody of sins they haven’t repented of.
v
Okay, let’s move on.
So there are four things that happen with sin:
1. Committed
2. Remitted
3. Repented
4. Removed
That’s the sequence. Repentance is where you accelerate this. All through your life you learn to mature... learn to operate in society... learn to obey the laws of the higher powers and so on... stopping at stop signs... staying under the speed limit etc... You do all these things, which are admirable, we should do them. But there comes a time when you have to just stop 'doing good things' and repent of who and what you are. Then you will start to make real progress.
v
God makes vessels of honor and dishonor. He makes vessels of dishonor and then has mercy on the other vessels. Some He hardens and some He has mercy on. He has had mercy on everybody in this room. If you have never killed anybody or molested children or done any of these horrendous things. He has great mercy on your life. Now we need to be thankful for that and not assume we don’t have very much to repent of. We have to repent of what? "O man," that’s what we have to repent of.
Whatever "O man" is. That’s what we are, because "O man" is Adam. "O man" came out of Adam. Where did you come from, some place else? We’re all out of Adam. What does Adam do? "Being filled with all unrighteousness, sexual immorality, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness, full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, evil-mindedness, backbiters, haters of God, violent, proud, boasters" and on and on (Rom 1:29-31). Wow! This is "O man" out of Adam. This is what he does and only by the grace of God, some of us didn’t have to go that route.
v
Acts 15:7 And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe.
v. 8 And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us;
v. 9 And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.
See? Peter understood these spiritual things. He said, God PURIFIED their hearts. That’s conversion! That’s being born-again... begotten anew... regenerated... whatever word you want to use, that’s what THAT is. It was happening to the Gentiles.
http://bible-truths.com/lake15-B.html -----------------------------------
THE SCRIPTURAL PROCESS OF CONVERSION
The truth of conversion is a simple one, if we believe the Scriptures and don’t try to bring it about by some phantom free will. It is all of God.
How do the Scriptures say we become converted? Does an ounce of "free will" enter into the conversion process according to the Scriptures?
1. "Or despise you the riches of HIS goodness [‘His goodness;’ not our free will] and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God LEADS [God’s ‘leading’ is the CAUSE] you to repentance?" (Rom. 2:4). Where is the ‘free will’ in this statement? "God LEADS…" is the cause of repentance, not free will.
2. "No man CAN come to Me, except the Father which has sent Me draw [Gk: ‘drag’] him: and I will raise him up at the last day" (John 6:44). This verse is plain: "No man CAN…" come to Christ of his own will. It is the Father "dragging" him that is the cause of one coming to Christ, not his own supposed free will.
3. "You have not chosen Me, but I HAVE CHOSEN YOU…" (John 15:16). "I have CHOSEN you…" is the CAUSE and it is by Christ’s will, not man’s will.
4. "I am crucified with Christ, nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith OF the Son of God [not faith ‘IN’ the Son of God, but the very faith ‘OF’ the Son of God—it is His faith, not ours until He gives us some of it] Who loved me, and gave Himself for me" (Gal. 2:20). It is not by the ‘free will’ of our faith that we live, but the by the faith OF Jesus. There is no human free will in all this.
5. "I am the Vine, ye are the branches: He that abides in Me, and I in him, the same brings forth much fruit, for without ME YE CAN DO NOTHING" (John 15:5). According to God’s Word, what is it that we can do by our own will? Answer: "NOTHING." It is Christ "IN him" that brings forth much fruit. Man does not bring forth much fruit by his fabled free will.
6. "And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father" (Phil. 2:11). Is this man’s part in his own salvation? Must man confess that Jesus Christ is his Lord by his OWN FREE WILL, or it will have no real meaning? Is that how this confession is made? Answer: "…no man can say [with his fabled free will] that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Spirit" (I Cor. 12). Do we profess Jesus as our Lord by our own will or by the Holy Spirit? "By the Holy Spirit" is the cause. Our own will is not the cause of our calling Jesus, Lord.
7. "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that [‘that faith’] not of yourselves [NOT of your own faith or will] it is the gift of God. Not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are HIS workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God has before ordained that we should walk in them" (Eph. 2:8-10).
Are we saved through the faith of our own will? NO. Do we do good works by our own will? NO. It is: God’s faith, God’s gift, God’s Workmanship, God’s creating, God’s ordaining. The cause is "His workmanship," not our own will.
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--- Quote ---What does John mean the Kingdom of God is at hand. Jesus has not died yet? Kingdom of God is a manifestation of everything perfect in the mind? I have seen throughout scripture that kingdom of God is near, and kingdom of God is at hand... what does these things mean? manifestion of what is perfect and Good?
--- End quote ---
John and Christ continually said that the Kingdom of God is at hand, because Jesus Christ was there among them and He is the head of the kingdom. Christ had already started the work of bringing people into the kingdom with the disciples, even though He was not yet sacrificed, but it was already upon that generation. Christ preached of what He Himself was offering with His own sacrifice and yes indeed the kingdom was at hand with everybody that heard the gospel preached then and to all of us that read or hear it preached now, though only a very few are given eyes to see/comprehend it.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
Revilonivek:
Yeah-
Then every effort that we do trying to strive is rigged then. I mean. it's already "fixed" God already decides who gets the "rewards" and who doesn't.
What is confusing is that The apostles, Jesus, John the baptist, Paul, etc, are always telling us to repent, renew our minds, etc.
but it's all rigged because God already decided who recieves the rewards and who doesn't. It doesn't seem like a fair reward system. The bible seems to teach that we are judged according to our deeds. It just doesn't make sense.
scriptures say God hardens some hearts, God softens some hearts, actions are influenced by God. but scriptures say God still judges according to their deeds? How is that allowable when It's all a rigged life. Some scriptures smells of free will, some scriptures says you do not have free will. honestly, It does send a mixed message. It tells us we need to repent- as if it's up to us to repent or experience the wrath of God but God says He only causes people to repent if it's his will for them to do so? Jesus ridiculed the pharisees, when he himself knew that Its not the pharisees' fault for being the way they are. God made them this way. All it took is an snap of fingers to change their hearts and help them see...
I just am trying to understand why did the prophets, why did the apostles, why did Paul, why did Jesus, etc, warn us we need to repent, and so on.. as if it was up to us to repent or not?
I would understand if everything is of God and it only takes God to change hearts in an instant to help everyone see but why the REWARDS system?
It seems so wrong.. its like rewarding those who God helped and punishing those who God hardened? I would understand if God created the vessels of honor and dishonor to help us understand and learn... but why the REWARDS SYSTEM? Why are we judged according to our works if our life is already Rigged by God?
I have read by some of you that the bible is really directed toward elect not the many called- but still. if I was God, i wouldn't confuse my children as much as this. LOL. I would just say, you are here to learn... overcome.. and I will reward you greatly... that makes sense.. but saying that your life is rigged by Me... and no matter how hard you try... you w ill not make it, or make it, and i will give rewards to those who I want to give it to...the story seems off.. The logic doesnt make sense.
I agree that life is full of mathematical equations- every action you make- creates paths. there's no way out of it. There's a will but no free will. I would understand.. There's no free will. but there's a will.. but still.. what The bible is saying- it seems like life is rigged whether you like it or not.. and you are rewarded if God wants to reward you.
It just bothers me.. It just doesn't make sense... I would understand that God put us all n earth to learn, to overcome our flesh, and reward according to it.. but the Rewards system when life is rigged already doesn't make sense either.
I guess it's a matter of understanding who God really is. Then it would probably make tons of sense..It's a matter of timing i guess. Scirptures say we are in God and God is inside of us. We just need to understand. I can imagine how every image we have in our heads can influence our actions.
I guess it's a matter of understanding how the universe, how life works.. How God works.. I am sure once we are connected to God, everything would make sense. :) All in due time. I just don't understand the Rewards system if we don't have free will That's all.
Kat:
Denise, I could continue to bring Ray's articles up here bit by bit to answer all of your questions... or you could go read through them yourself. I think you might be surprised at how much you could learn. All your confusion about what is in the Scriptures concerning free-will, well he explains the whole myth of free will in great detail, it covers all of the things you were questioning. I'll even give you the links.
The Myth of "Free Will" Exposed - Part A http://bible-truths.com/lake15.html
The Myth of "Free Will" Exposed - Part B http://bible-truths.com/lake15.html
The Myth of "Free Will" Exposed - Part C http://bible-truths.com/lake15-C.html
The Myth of "Free Will" Exposed - Part D http://bible-truths.com/lake15-D.html
mercy, peace and love
Kat
Gina:
--- Quote from: Revilonivek on March 28, 2012, 05:08:59 PM ---Yeah-
Then every effort that we do trying to strive is rigged then. I mean. it's already "fixed" God already decides who gets the "rewards" and who doesn't.
What is confusing is that The apostles, Jesus, John the baptist, Paul, etc, are always telling us to repent, renew our minds, etc.
but it's all rigged because God already decided who recieves the rewards and who doesn't. It doesn't seem like a fair reward system. The bible seems to teach that we are judged according to our deeds. It just doesn't make sense.
scriptures say God hardens some hearts, God softens some hearts, actions are influenced by God. but scriptures say God still judges according to their deeds? How is that allowable when It's all a rigged life. Some scriptures smells of free will, some scriptures says you do not have free will. honestly, It does send a mixed message. It tells us we need to repent- as if it's up to us to repent or experience the wrath of God but God says He only causes people to repent if it's his will for them to do so? Jesus ridiculed the pharisees, when he himself knew that Its not the pharisees' fault for being the way they are. God made them this way. All it took is an snap of fingers to change their hearts and help them see...
I just am trying to understand why did the prophets, why did the apostles, why did Paul, why did Jesus, etc, warn us we need to repent, and so on.. as if it was up to us to repent or not?
I would understand if everything is of God and it only takes God to change hearts in an instant to help everyone see but why the REWARDS system?
It seems so wrong.. its like rewarding those who God helped and punishing those who God hardened? I would understand if God created the vessels of honor and dishonor to help us understand and learn... but why the REWARDS SYSTEM? Why are we judged according to our works if our life is already Rigged by God?
I have read by some of you that the bible is really directed toward elect not the many called- but still. if I was God, i wouldn't confuse my children as much as this. LOL. I would just say, you are here to learn... overcome.. and I will reward you greatly... that makes sense.. but saying that your life is rigged by Me... and no matter how hard you try... you w ill not make it, or make it, and i will give rewards to those who I want to give it to...the story seems off.. The logic doesnt make sense.
I agree that life is full of mathematical equations- every action you make- creates paths. there's no way out of it. There's a will but no free will. I would understand.. There's no free will. but there's a will.. but still.. what The bible is saying- it seems like life is rigged whether you like it or not.. and you are rewarded if God wants to reward you.
It just bothers me.. It just doesn't make sense... I would understand that God put us all n earth to learn, to overcome our flesh, and reward according to it.. but the Rewards system when life is rigged already doesn't make sense either.
I guess it's a matter of understanding who God really is. Then it would probably make tons of sense..It's a matter of timing i guess. Scirptures say we are in God and God is inside of us. We just need to understand. I can imagine how every image we have in our heads can influence our actions.
I guess it's a matter of understanding how the universe, how life works.. How God works.. I am sure once we are connected to God, everything would make sense. :) All in due time. I just don't understand the Rewards system if we don't have free will That's all.
--- End quote ---
It makes perfect sense, you just can't see it. ;-)
Just kidding, Denise. It's very hard to understand unless God gives you eyes to see and even then it's like looking thru a glass darkly.
1 Cor. 13:12 Now we see things imperfectly, like puzzling reflections in a mirror, but then we will see everything with perfect clarity. All that I know now is partial and incomplete, but then I will know everything completely, just as God now knows me completely.
I believe God is using this very puzzling "situation" / "predicament to get people like you to question because questioning leads to seeking and seeking leads to finding, receiving, having the door opened to you.
Luke 12:2 is one of my favorite verses. There is nothing concealed that will not be disclosed, or hidden that will not be made known.
May God grant you and me the ability to see and believe His Word and DO it, because as Ray has said previously, it is by DOing what Christ commands that we are able to understand His word.
(The beginning of wisdom is... GET WISDOM!)
Love you, and glad you're here. You ask tough questions. :)
Gina
Deborah-Leigh:
--- Quote ---. All in due time. I just don't understand the Rewards system if we don't have free will That's all.
--- End quote ---
There is no such thing as anyone not being saved. All will be saved! See the reward system, as a projection, simply of the limitations of the physical mind, trying to think its way into knowing God. God can not be reached by the cleverness of any human mind. God is Spirit. The carnal mind is deep seated enmity towards God with a great appetite for nonsense. lol
Turning away from leaning upon the understandings that are wrought by the limitations of the human mind, brings to the light of experience that You are a child of GOD, and an Heir of Christ. Leaving all the non-sense to HIM....is not easy...but it is possible...You have asked, and you shall not be denied.
Arc
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