> General Discussions
In OR OUT?
octoberose:
The verses I quoted and others indicate we have to "not give up". Only God knows if I won't give up. Though really I can't imagine doing anything of the sort. Where else is there to go? And it seems to me that the disciples were always harrasing Jesus about their place in the Kingdom and they sound so petty to me. Of couse this is before Jesus' death when their understanding was pretty limited. And Paul doesn't want to be "disqualified from the prize" . Why would he say that? Perhaps his struggles are so desparately painful he didnt always trust himself? And he surely knew he would be facing a painful death. I don't know.
What really bothers me about the possibility of not being part of the elect is not having the Spirit now. That is having a "form of godliness but none of its power." I hope I'm not leading that kind of life- but I have a couple of persistent struggles that you'd think I'd be past now. And to tell you the Truth (pun intended ) it feels like denying the power of the Spirit. I hate that.
I'm in the middle of reading Ray's article (really good but takes time) that Dave suggested to you. I think Ive read it before but it bears repeating.
Lastly, I have no judgement on anyone who has a different perspective than I do. If God has given you insight into this than that is a blessing you don't need to question. I think the question you posed was a important one .
octoberose:
Such a good post Kat- forum members don't even have to bother with mine- they should go straight to yours!
Dave in Tenn:
My view of whether I might be one of THE Elect of God has changed over time with my understanding.
In my denomination, the elect, if spoken of at all, were every christian who actually WAS a christian. That really answers very, very little, but may have a bit of understanding in it. But with that in mind, reading Ray those first few days, the first thing that came to my mind wasn't "Oh boy, maybe I'm one of those 'elect' dudes that are going to reign with Christ", but "Thank God, I'm not going to be a miserable, wretched sinner forever. SOMEBODY is going to be able to make me and everything else alright."
A bit later, I began to 'see the possibility' that I might be one of those, but only in the way one identifies with the characters in any piece of writing--not much more than seeing myself as Tom Sawyer or Ishmael, only in Scripture instead of fiction.
As I continued to read and grow, and see the 'elect' as the 'few' in the Gospel of the Kingdom I entertained the idea that I might be 'one of those'.
Since my view of MYSELF in relation to election has changed over time with each new understanding, I have nothing but reason to expect that it will continue to evolve as I continue to read, meditate and live.
This is a huge subject and I can no longer 'say' everything in a forum post. I'll say just this to amen some of what precedes. God is Sovereign. He didn't choose His disciples BECAUSE of their pasts--not even in spite of their pasts. He caused their pasts. No matter how you, or octoberrose or Kat came to believe the Gospel, He caused it to happen. I KNOW I didn't choose this, and nobody who has come to grips with the Sovereignty of God can claim otherwise for themselves.
All of us who believe have been ELECTED to believe. Have we been ELECTED to reign with Christ and judge the world? Neither He nor we are finished yet.
The 'race' is mentioned above. Though there may be more, I only can think of two ways be be disqualified in a race. One is to stop running. (He who endures to the end will be saved.) The other is to cheat. ...you worship in vain.
I really can't see anybody being qualified to judge the world who thinks 'judgement' is everlasting torture, seperation, or annihilation. Nor can I see anybody 'reigning with Christ' who doesn't recognize Christ's reign.
There's SO much more to it. www.bible-truths.com
Anyways, I don't much like doing 'talking points' on things which have changed (and are changing) my life, especially with people who are not here "with us" in spirit and understanding.
thetruth:
Hello again!
Kat, as always thank you so much for your respect to my question, and as always your response.To tell you the truth i as many others have felt that i could not lay total claim as to being the electWhy?Because of what you said... I know if it aint for God and His Spirit I am finished.And by His Grace I am coming more and more to see the Carnal man.With that being said we can also as Dave shared:As I continued to read and grow, and see the 'elect' as the 'few' in the Gospel of the Kingdom I entertained the idea that I might be 'one of those'-Dave quote.
Kat..I have heard Ray make mention or emply as to the group He was addressing.That He and that Group was elect.Now let me say I could have miss understood what he meant in some way ok.... so please no one jump to conclusions.I understand that we are not God in the sense that we know what our life will consist of from here on out.And as Dave so beautifully said and I concur that at least we know we wont remain a carnal beast!Thank God!
I would like to say this is something that I will continue to gain understanding on if God wills. And i am hoping others will add too.
Octoberose:Thank you as well for your post I enjoy your insight and personality and the fact that your very respectful!
Dave:This is a huge subject and I can no longer 'say' everything in a forum post. I'll say just this to amen some of what precedes. God is Sovereign. He didn't choose His disciples BECAUSE of their pasts--not even in spite of their pasts. He caused their pasts. No matter how you, or octoberrose or Kat came to believe the Gospel, He caused it to happen. I KNOW I didn't choose this, and nobody who has come to grips with the Sovereignty of God can claim otherwise for themselves.Dave quote
How awesome is that Dave!Dave we have had some good discussions and you are one of the first persons i meet here on bt.i just want to say your a beautiful person Man.As well are so many here on Bt!Thanks so much Dave for your pst as it was spot on.
santgem:
Whether i belong to Elect or not it does not bother me at this moment in time.
What most important to me is that i know now by the fact that there is no hell that can barbecued human forever and ever and ever. What a great relief!
Just Imagine even John the Baptist And king David will not be in the first resurrection and thus God Chooses the great sinner (Saul)Paul to belong to the Chosen or Elect one. Now i see the difference. God wants us to understand that we are not far from Him that He can do whatever He wills. If the people He loves will not be in the first resurrection then me particularly will be in great joy knowing that even though i will not be among the Elect i will be with those people whom God Loved in the judgment. :)
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