Did Jesus use the words Gehenna and Hades?

[Kat]

Hi David,

I can see that you are seeking and wanting to discuss these truths. I will tell you this about what I believe. I was 25 yrs in several churches, seeking to serve and obey, I really wanted to do God's will and put a lot of effort into it. But it was a hopeless thing, because I was striving to serve God with my own power, I had not yet been given the Holy Spirit or had my eyes opened. I 'happened' upon the BT site and was very intrigued and started reading, it's been 6 1/2 yrs and I have never looked back.

Ray was prepared and then sent out to teach and God fulfilled that mission in him very well. No, of course I do not believe that Ray had all the truth. But what truth he did have and taught was more than enough from which to build a solid foundation on, with his great use of multiple Scripture witnesses. I didn't just accept what Ray taught, I studied it in the Scriptures very much, I had been in church long enough and did not want to be deceived again.

But without a doubt it takes the Holy Spirit indwelling to see and understand these truths, that is bared out in all the hate emails that Ray received from people that did not understand.

I have just been discussing with Doug about those in the OT not being in the first resurrection, you can see it in the above posts. It's not that they did not have faith and didn't serve God good enough, the first resurrection is reserved for a very few, that are unworthy, have done nothing to earn and qualify for it. It is a gift pure and simple to a few "base things" of this world "that no man should glory/boost." These undeserving Elect are a few predestined to be prepared in this life time and used by God for HIS glory, but that want come till the next age. What better way than to show His glory than to bring the least likely to salvation in the first resurrection?

The church started when Jesus Christ sent His Holy Spirit to those first believers at Pentecost. He has been adding to those ever since, those He has predestined to be called out and chosen all the way up until now. I would not dare to say who is or is not and Elect, but when you are speaking with a person sometimes I feel a kindred spirit with them. So I just keep studing these things and seeking the truth as God sees fit to give it and I feel the Spirit of Truth indwelling will keep us on the right path 

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[doug]

Kat - please, please do not think that I am trying to be argumentative in any way.  I am not a teacher and I am not an arguer... I am just searching for the truth.  Like I said, it will come to me eventually.

Now, to the verses you gave:  "Now this He said about the Spirit, whom those who believed in him were to receive, for as yet the Spirit had not been given, because Jesus was not yet glorified."

What is meant by the phrase, "as yet the Spirit had not been given, because Jesus was not yet glorified."?  We read in Acts 1:8, "But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes on you."  This was said just before His ascension and it speaks of what will be received in the future.  Note that both Jn 7:39 and Acts 1:8 speak of that which is given/received after Christ's ascension/glorification.  But Acts 1:8 makes it clear that it is "power".  That tells us that it is the gifts from the Holy Spirit and it was fulfilled after Christ's ascension as we read in Acts 2:4, "All of them were filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues as the Spirit moved them."

In other words Jn 7:39 is speaking of gifts from the Holy Spirit that were received on the day of Pentecost.  When those gifts were received the result was that they spoke in tongues.  In my opinion, the gifts from the Holy Spirit have nothing at all to do with salvation. 

Now to John 16:7 - "Nevertheless I tell you the truth: it is expedient for you that i go away; for if I do not go away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I go, I will send him unto you.".

The Greek word translated "Comforter" in Jn 16:7 is also used in the following passages:  Jn 14:16-18; Jn 14:26; Jn 15:26; & Jn 16:7-15.  And in John 2:1 the word is Advocate.

Nowhere do we read that the Comforter gives eternal life.  He does many things, but don't forget He comes to believers, i.e. those who are already converted, He does not come to convert them.

In my opinion, i believe there are several difficulties with the belief that comes with the understanding that one must have the Holy Spirit in order to be "saved" (which I believe we both agree that many are called but few are chosen) and He "was not given until Pentecost."

What was sent at Pentecost was the gifts from the Holy Spirit.  Those gifts, in my opinion, had nothing to do with salvation.  And at Pentecost we are told quite specifically in Acts 1 that what was received was "power" from the Holy Spirit which allowed them to speak in tongues, i.e. nothing to do with salvation.

[Kat]

Hi Doug,

I am willing to discuss things as much as needed, as long as I feel someone is considering all of the Scriptures in proving a point.

Note that both Jn 7:39 and Acts 1:8 speak of that which is given/received after Christ's ascension/glorification.  But Acts 1:8 makes it clear that it is "power".  That tells us that it is the gifts from the Holy Spirit and it was fulfilled after Christ's ascension as we read in Acts 2:4, "All of them were filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues as the Spirit moved them."

In other words Jn 7:39 is speaking of gifts from the Holy Spirit that were received on the day of Pentecost.  When those gifts were received the result was that they spoke in tongues.  In my opinion, the gifts from the Holy Spirit have nothing at all to do with salvation. 

I am trying to follow what you are saying here. The "gifts" that any Elect receive is to help one another in this walk.

1Co 12:1  Now concerning spiritual gifts, brothers, I would not have you ignorant.
v. 4  But there are differences of gifts, but the same Spirit.
v. 5  And there are differences of ministries, but the same Lord.
v. 6  And there are differences of workings, but it is the same God working all things in all.
v. 7  But to each one is given the showing forth of the Spirit to our profit.

Nowhere do we read that the Comforter gives eternal life.  He does many things, but don't forget He comes to believers, i.e. those who are already converted, He does not come to convert them.

In my opinion, i believe there are several difficulties with the belief that comes with the understanding that one must have the Holy Spirit in order to be "saved" (which I believe we both agree that many are called but few are chosen) and He "was not given until Pentecost."

I trying to understand how you are seeing the Holy Spirit, you seem to be saying it is separate from God?  The Holy Spirit is the power of God, as the Father and Christ are One and He gave all things to Christ, it is also the Spirit of Jesus Christ.

John 3:35  The Father loves the Son and has given all things into His hand.

Jesus Christ is the Holy Spirit-Comforter, He is the "bread of life." ALL THINGS are through Jesus Christ.

Heb 2:9  But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honor, that He by the grace of God should taste death for all.
v. 10  For it became Him, for whom are all things and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons into glory, to perfect the Captain of their salvation through sufferings.

John 6:32  Then Jesus said to them, Truly, truly, I say to you, Moses did not give you that bread from Heaven, but My Father gives you the true bread from Heaven.
v. 33  For the bread of God is He who comes down from Heaven and gives LIFE to the world.


http://bible-truths.com/lake8.html -------------------------------------------

On Pentecost, Jesus Christ came back to His disciples just as He said He would. He came back as the Comforter. Jesus said that they absolutely could NOT receive the Comforter until He went away. Why? Because Jesus Christ IS THE COMFORTER, but not in the flesh, but in THE SPIRIT!

It was on Pentecost that the first members of the Church of Christ received the Holy Spirit Comforter, just as He symbolized to them when He blew on them, showing that He Himself would come to them in spirit by the will of God. Now for the first time, His disciples were truly converted, baptized in Holy Spirit, possessing the mind of Christ, lead into all Truth (Jesus) by the Comforter—Jesus was NOW BUILDING HIS CHURCH!

"But the Comforter [Greek, parakletos, also called the Consoler, and in I John 2:1, Advocate in KJV, and Entreater in the CLNT] which IS the Holy Spirit, Whom the Father will send in My name, He shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you" (John 14:26).

The Advocate or Entreater in I John 2:1 IS the parakletos, The Comforter or Consoler of John 14:26 IS the parakletos,. and we are told that it is Jesus Christ Himself. Furthermore, the "Holy Spirit" that is said to come AS the Comforter is also Jesus Christ,

"Now the Lord IS that Spirit: and where the Spirit OF THE Lord [Jesus Christ] is, there is liberty" (II Cor. 3:17).
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mercy, peace and love
Kat

[whyisthatso]

    Thank you Gina for the fine compliment earlier, but I am not "smart" in any way. Now if you had used the word "wise" as in wisdom, I might not be so quick to relent.  What ever I know and understand is not mine. As for me, I am nothing and nobody. But, to be more specific if you must know. I am a 56 year old "grease monkee", aka mechanic (45 years), I work 12-15 hours everyday (literally), with an almost debilitating arthritic condition (thanks mom), I live with a mentally ill wife ( bipolar) .....who can be quite abusive at times, almost 30 years now, with 2 rebellious daughters (well 1 at least), eyeball in debt trying to support all of them ( I'm 56 ).........and lets see, oh I struggle with sexual lust ( as I believe most men do....yes, you guys too), and have had no intimacy with my wife for almost 20 years who hates my guts.........and, well I think you get the picture.
      And I THANK GOD for ALL of it, every night and everyday.     As for me making any predictions on line in the past about the future, all I can say is you either misread the subject matter or else you misunderstood it. I am no "prophet: ....per say.   What else would you like to know Gina ?  I am not ashamed of Christ.

[doug]

        It is my understanding that when Christ spoke of the first being last and the last first,  He was not speaking of order, as in the Resurrection from the dead.  But that He was speaking of position in the Kingdom.  We have many scriptures that tell us that most (if not all) of the OT "saints" received God's Spirit (Christ), and will be there.  But many (if not most) of them will not be "first" in terms of position.  Even as much as they endured and went through, they are not as qualified to rule over this earth as Gods elect today and future,  for the simple reason, among others,  that they lived in a different age.|
     

                                                                                             

David, I alluded to your comment in my comments about Hebrews 11 a couple posts back.  I believe as you have suggested that it has something to do with "positions" and/or "rewards" and not only if or do not reign with Christ while on the earth or not.

It gets to be pretty complicated stuff until we blend all of the right scriptures relating to the matter.

doug

btw - I usually spell my name with a lower case "d" as there are at least two other Doug's on this forum.

[whyisthatso]

    Gina, oh, I forgot.......I was born dirt poor, 6 of us kids, with an alcoholic father who abused all of us. 

[whyisthatso]

     Gina, in case you are wondering about the 12-15 hour work day comment, when you know I have been in the forum all week, it is because I am on "vacation" this week, and work on my house and in my garage all week to late at night. Thats what I do when I take a vacation.....work. And today is no exception either.  Just so would know.

                                                                                                                                David

[Gina]

Well, David, I'm glad that you found us.  I hope we can all work together to be the best we can possibly be for and to each other.

And with that, I'm out of this particular discussion. 

[whyisthatso]

    Thank you Gina for your understanding.  But I did not answer your other question about when I "left my first love"...and by that I understand you to mean when did I leave or come out of this worlds false apostacy.  I didn't, because I was never in it.  So I would like to know when did the litteral, physical church at Ephesus, the one that received John's letter personally,  the ones that were meeting in secret in fear of their very lives, when did they leave an apostate system ?  Oh, I know "anti-christianity " ( in place of christ ) was around then, but it was not organized to any point. And certainly not a world wide force.  So what "love " did they leave.......their "first love" at that.
    What I "hear" when I read the letter is Christ warning them of turning away from the TRUTH, and warning them to repent of it.  This has been the problem with Gods "church" from the beginning and the ages since. They allowed false teaching (doctrine) to come in and accepted it as truth. Christ and all the apostles warned of this throughout the new testament.   I know what you understand, but to leave ones first love is to leave the Truth .  And I have done that defore, not as in a group, but individually, personally, as has all before. When we do that we leave Him (The Truth) and we leave "Love" ( what God is ).   Then we must repent of it.          " ...and God will send them ( the apostate system ) strong delusion, because they received not the LOVE OF THE TRUTH "  They did not receive it because it was not offered them.  They are deaf and blind, and are because God purposed them to be.  They are in "darkness" as Kat commented.  And I know God calls many out of this false system......like in Revelation when He told His servants to go out and beat the bushes, so to speak. 

     Sorry for the windbagging, I will leave you in peace.

[Gina]

    Thank you Gina for your understanding.  But I did not answer your other question about when I "left my first love"...and by that I understand you to mean when did I leave or come out of this worlds false apostacy.  I didn't, because I was never in it.  So I would like to know when did the litteral, physical church at Ephesus, the one that received John's letter personally,  the ones that were meeting in secret in fear of their very lives, when did they leave an apostate system ?  Oh, I know "anti-christianity " ( in place of christ ) was around then, but it was not organized to any point. And certainly not a world wide force.  So what "love " did they leave.......their "first love" at that.
    What I "hear" when I read the letter is Christ warning them of turning away from the TRUTH, and warning them to repent of it.  This has been the problem with Gods "church" from the beginning and the ages since. They allowed false teaching (doctrine) to come in and accepted it as truth. Christ and all the apostles warned of this throughout the new testament.   I know what you understand, but to leave ones first love is to leave the Truth .  And I have done that defore, not as in a group, but individually, personally, as has all before. When we do that we leave Him (The Truth) and we leave "Love" ( what God is ).   Then we must repent of it.          " ...and God will send them ( the apostate system ) strong delusion, because they received not the LOVE OF THE TRUTH "   They did not receive it because it was not offered them.  They are deaf and blind, and are because God purposed them to be.  They are in "darkness" as Kat commented.  And I know God calls many out of this false system......like in Revelation when He told His servants to go out and beat the bushes, so to speak. 

     Sorry for the windbagging, I will leave you in peace.

No, it's all good.  Thank you.  What you said makes perfect sense to me. 

[whyisthatso]

   Please excuse my error, the verse is in the parables in Mathew and Luke. My mind is in Revelation a lot these days.

[doug]

JFK  -  If you would like to take the time... please unravel me.  I know that you are a "tough" character, and I respect you.  Let's keep our emotions civil.  That's what this discussion forum is for??

I have presented some alternative scriptures to why I understand that there will be some elect at the first resurrection (even if they don't all share the same rewards or position with Christ) from Adam to Pentecost.  I have shown some scriptural examples.  It would help if you would first show why those scriptures I presented "don't cut it".  I have tried to present why the scriptures shown to me don't prove beyond reasonable doubt what I believe could very well be, and that is some elect between Adam and Pentecost that will be at the first resurrection.

To be honest with you, I certainly don't object to the idea of only a few elect and only after Pentecost to receive the honor of being in the first resurrection.  If God's word says so... then that is absolutely cool with me.  But if someone were to pose the doctrine shared by Ray and even after studying the concept as Kat and you have mentioned (and I wouldn't be sharing the verses contrary if I didn't) I would not be able to defend myself as to Ray's position.  It's not that cut and dry for me.  I'm not a "man follower" and I question everything, as I believe everyone should.

Let me start out with baby steps so that you might discern a flaw and to see if I at least have a correct foundation. 

When all of mankind is born, that person is given the breath of life to make him a living person.  At the same time, God gives that person, spirit, to make him a living soul.  That spirit God gives to all humans is from Him... God.  That spirit has to be Holy because it is from God.  Each person has a small portion of God's Holy Spirit.  Albeit not much, but some. 

Okay, now all people have a conscience to understand what is right and what is wrong.  Everyone intuitively knows that there is God.  No one can claim to have an excuse.  We have no excuse because His spirit and His works declare it.

Now I also believe that there is only one spirit of God.  God is spirit.  Eph 4:4.  I've stated before and I will say it again - I'm not a trinitarian, but you have to also realize, even between those that don't believe in the trinity, there are five or six different views.

Here is where it now gets sticky and I have tried to present scripture to support myself -  then at Pentecost the Holy Spirit was "poured out" and many were "filled" with the Holy Spirit.  In addition to the spirit that every one has from creation, some were filled to overflowing with God's spirit.  This issue about the spirit is even more confusing because translations like the KJ took the liberty to capitalize spirit when ever they felt like they needed to, and a lot of times not correctly.  This outpouring at Pentecost was for the gifts needed for the task at hand, and that was to carry on His church with the many believers, and sprinkled here and there some of the elect that were named before the foundation of the world.  I understand only the elect will be in the first resurrection.

Now I am having a hard time understanding why for instance Abraham, Isaac and Joseph (not being Jews but Gentiles) were not of God's elect and therefore not at the first resurrection.  And again, not necessarily reigning with Christ but nonetheless with a great reward.... kings, priests, lords, and judges etc.  In OT times and forward to Pentecost, God worked with those individuals that He wanted for His purposes (including being elect) by using His spirit mostly amongst/ alongside and even sometimes indwelling that person to accomplish His purpose.

If it would be God's will for me to be an elect at the first resurrection, I don't feel that I could in any way preside over and teach, let's say, those saints mentioned in Hebrews 11.

[Gina]

If it would be God's will for me to be an elect at the first resurrection, I don't feel that I could in any way preside over and teach, let's say, those saints mentioned in Hebrews 11.

I know exactly what you're saying, Doug.  Putting those saints way up on a pedestal.  Is that what you're doing?

I don't know if you are, but they aren't deserving of that, and nobody should be doing that.

Should God will, God WILL equip you and all the other elect to teach those saints. 

You don't have to worry that God would call you and then choose you to be an elect and then not equip you for the task.  But that's precisely what we're doing when we think to ourselves, "I could never teach them."  Well, of course not at this point in our walk with the Lord ...  Duh!

But later, after having completely gone through judgment?  Sure!  Is anything too hard for God?

I mean, think about it, Doug, we're talking about people who believed in an eye for an eye and tooth for tooth and all that and hating their enemies and "tithing."  Why couldn't God equip you for the job?  You're basically halfway there. 

Is anything too hard for God, Doug?

It is He Who is the Author and Finisher of our faith, not the patriarchs of old.  They went through a LOT, but they don't belong on a pedestal.

I'm following JFK's advice and re-read Ray's materials, starting with the first thing.

God bless.

p.s.  It's okay to ask someone a question.  But it's an entirely whole other matter to expect them to dispel your doubts about the things you've read and expect them to lead you into all truth.  That's not for Kat or JFK or anyone to do.  That's God's job.  That's what the Holy Spirit is for.

John 14:26 But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you.

Doesn't matter if you believe that now or not, Doug.  If God wants to teach you and make you an elect, it's going to happen.  That's just the way it is.

Cheer up.

[Kat]

Hi Doug,

When Ray had researched these things to the degree that he did and line up many Scriptures to prove it and I can see that what he says is the truth, I am not so vain as to think I need to put that in my own words, probably in a less concise way? So I just use Ray own words (copy and paste) that I have studied and proved to myself, when I can. I don't think that makes someone a man follower to appreciate and use the work he did.

When all of mankind is born, that person is given the breath of life to make him a living person.  At the same time, God gives that person, spirit, to make him a living soul.  That spirit God gives to all humans is from Him... God.  That spirit has to be Holy because it is from God.  Each person has a small portion of God's Holy Spirit.  Albeit not much, but some. 

Every living creature has the breath of life. This breath of life is a spark/spirit from God bringing a physical fleshly creature (all animals as well) to have a physical life.

Gen 7:15  And they went into the ark to Noah, two by two, of all flesh in which is the breath7307 of life.

H7307 ruach - breath, wind, spirit:

Gen 7:21 And all flesh ceased to breathe that moved on the earth, of birds and of tame-beasts and of wild-beasts, and of all the swarming things that swarm on the earth,—land all mankind.
v. 22 All in whose nostrils was the breath of the spirit of life of all that were on the dry ground died. (Rotherham)

Ecc 3:19  For what happens to the children of man and what happens to the beasts is the same; as one dies, so dies the other. They all have the same breath, and man has no advantage over the beasts, for all is vanity.

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,4176.0.html --------

        ALL men (and animals) have a spirit. This spirit gives life to the body and produces soul (feelings, thinking, emotions, etc.). But God dwells in our hearts and minds by way of His HOLY Spirit, which is a different spirit.

        God be with you,
        Ray
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We can see that a man needs a second "spirit which is of God" to go with their own "spirit of man."

1Co 2:11  For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.
v. 12  Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.

In Romans 8 Paul speaks of those that have the Spirit of God/Christ and those that do not. So this is a separate Spirit from our own spirit/breath of life and all living breathing creatures have as long as they are physically alive.

Rom 8:9  But you are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone has not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of His.
v. 10  And if Christ is in you, indeed the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
v. 11  But if the Spirit of the One who raised up Jesus from the dead dwells in you, the One who raised up Christ from the dead shall also make your mortal bodies alive by His Spirit who dwells in you.

Rom 8:14  For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

Rom 8:16  The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are the children of God.

God is not limited in how He uses His Spirit, He is able to do whatever He so desires.

Now I am having a hard time understanding why for instance Abraham, Isaac and Joseph (not being Jews but Gentiles) were not of God's elect and therefore not at the first resurrection.

Not even John the Baptist whom Christ said of him "those who have been born of women there has not risen a greater," not even he will be in the first resurrection.

Mat 11:11  Truly I say to you, Among those who have been born of women there has not risen a greater one than John the Baptist. But the least in the kingdom of Heaven is greater than he.

Now I would think that many of those great prophets and the great men and women of God in the OT could/would hold high positions of service to God on earth, in a physical sense. Just saying that because somebody is not in the first resurrection does not mean they could not still be given some kind of physical position durning Christ reign on the earth. Those born into the kingdom at the first resurrection will join Christ in the spiritual realm. But we do not know how the people will serve on the earth and maybe that would be a way for their preparation to enter the spiritual kingdom. Just a possibility to think about.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[whyisthatso]

    "........there will weeping there and gnashing of teeth when you see ABRAHAM, ISAAC, and JABOB, and ALL THE PROPHETS IN THE KINGDOM OF GOD, but you yourselves thrown out. People will come from the east and west, north and south and take their places ( SEATS OF AUTHORITY ) at the feast ( " the great feast / supper of God  .....Rev )  IN THE KINGDOM OF GOD.  Indeed, there ARE ( NOW, present tense......the very day Jesus spoke these words ) those who ARE ( NOW, the very day Jesus spoke these words) last, who WILL BE ( future tense ) first. and the first ( Abraham, Isaac, Jabob and all the prophets) who WILL BE last ".  Luke 13:28

Please compare this with the other accounts speaking of the same thing in Mathew and Mark and you will find a common denominator. In every case the subject of concern was position of authority. When we can understand that the "kingdom" of God is the very GOVERNMENT of God, then you will know why the concern was valid.  And I might add, it is no mere trivial matter that Christ was born into the great Roman Empire, and was put to death by this Empire.

[Foxx]

Doug,

As far as who will be around at the resurrection of the dead, Martha said to Jesus,  when he told her Lazarus would live again, she said to him

John 11:24 - I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.

of course Jesus went on to raise him back to life. Whether or not you are an "elect" is unimportant. God determines these things. You will be resurrected on the last day and that should be comforting. He is the potter and we are the clay. So trying to determine your 'post resurrection destiny' is a fruitless effort. God knows your heart as well as the millions of others who have had thoughts and feelings just like you. He has a way to deal with such things in us. Abraham was not a better man than you, Jesus said that NO ONE is good, not even himself. Only The father is good. That's a powerful statement .

[Kat]

Hi again whyisthatso,

Here is an email for you to consider.

http://bible-truths.com/email17.htm --------------------------

he was speaking to the Jews only, okay.  Now then, were the Jews the FIRST to be offered this salvation?  Yes, of course they were -- "go NOT the way of the Samaritan" -- remember?  But what is the context of these verses?  Not all of the JEWS that call Jesus "Lord, Lord" will "enter" the narrow gate to the Kingdom, will they?  No they won't. (Matt. 7:21).  Even of those Jews who "seek to enter" will "NOT BE ABLE"   (Luke 13:24).  They are the FIRST TO BE CALLED, but they will not be the FIRST TO ENTER.

"There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye [Gk: 'all of you'] shall see Abraham [Abraham was not a Jew], and Isaac [Isaac was not a Jew], and Jacob [Jacob was not a Jew] and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you [JEWS] yourselves thrust out.  And they shall come from the east [Jews?  No, GENTILES], and from the west [Gentiles], and from the north [etc.], and from the south, and shall sit down IN THE KINGDOM of God" (Luke 13:28-29).

The Jews should have been FIRST, but the Patriarchs and the Gentiles will enter before them. The Jews will NOT ENTER FIRST! 

But will they EVER enter?  Do the Scriptures state that "they will NEVER, EVER, enter?"  Is there such a Scripture in all the Bible, Brian?  NO, there is not. There are hundreds and hundreds of Scriptures [you gave me but two] that state that the evil, wicked, sinner, unregenerate, unrepentant, etc., etc., etc., WILL NOT be saved in this lifetime.  But is there ONE verse of Scripture that states they will "never EVER be saved?"  No, Brian there is not. There is a plan of God, a schedule, a time table, and "order" to who God saves and when.

Let's read I Cor. 15:22-24 in a more accurate translation than the KJV: 

"For since, in fact, through a man came death, through a Man also, comes the resurrection of the dead.  For even as in Adam, ALL are dying, thus also, in Christ, shall ALL [it's the SAME 'all'] be vivified. Yet each in his own CLASS [or order]: [1] the Firstfruit, Christ; [2] thereupon those who are Christ's in His presence;  [3] thereafter the consummation [those at the end, the LAST]..."

Paul explains this perfectly and simply:  In Romans 11 Paul tells us that the natural branches [the JEWS] have been broken off and the wild branches of the Gentiles grafted in. But is this FOREVER? NO.  The natural branches can also be grafted back into the tree once again, and Paul says that they WILL BE (Rom. 11:24). Now what is the "context" of all this Jew/Gentile business?

"For I would not, brethren, that ye should be IGNORANT [we don't want to be 'ignorant' of this context, context, context, Brian] of this mystery [a mystery that ALL OF CHRISTENDOM does not yet comprehend], lest ye should be wise in your own conceits [no danger of that ever happening, do you think?] that blindness in part is happened to Israel, UNTIL [if you don't know the meaning of the word 'until,' Brian, look it up] ... UNTIL the fullness of the Gentiles be come in" (Rom. 11:25).

Blindness to Israel was only to be UNTIL, UNTIL the fullness of the Gentiles be come in.  Has the "fullness of the Gentiles" as yet come in?   No.  Well what about all of these millions and millions of "Jesus" rejecting Jews down through the centuries. Can they "reject" Jesus as virtually all of Judaism has done and still be saved IN THIS LIFE TIME?  NO.  Well then, just when WILL they be grafted "back into the vine" if not in THIS life time?   Why in the next, of course. All of these DEAD Jews will be resurrected back to life in order to BE grafted back in, but they will have some mighty DEEP REPENTING TO DO FIRST!   (See Phil. 2:9-11 Vs. I Cor. 12:3).

God used Israel for a time and then cast them away, but, as Paul asks:

"Have they stumbled that they should fall?  God forbid, but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the GENTILES, for to provoke them [the Jews, Israel] to jealousy... For if the casting away of them [Israel -- Israel NOT entering the narrow gate, NOT entering the kingdom when it was offered] be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but LIFE FROM THE DEAD?   For if the firstfuit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, SO ARE THE BRANCHES... AND SO ALL ISRAEL SHALL BE SAVED... " (Rom. 11: 11, 15, & 26). 

But you see, they are NOT SAVED FIRST, are they?  No, they are saved LAST!

If the Jews are cast out of the kingdom and not able to enter the strait gate, when will they be able?  When they are grafted BACK INTO THE VINE, in the next life, in the resurrection, in the judgment. For in JUDGMENT, they WILL learn righteousness: 

"When Thy JUDGMENTS are in the earth, the inhabitants of THE WORLD  WILL LEARN  RIGHTEOUSNESS" (Isa. 26:9)

And finally, back to your "context, context, context" verses.  Clearly we have seen that there are MANY who will not be saved in this life. In fact, MOST OF THE JEWS will now be saved in they life. They will not enter through the strait gate and they will not enter the kingdom. They will NOT be the first to be saved, but will they be saved at ALL?  Yes, of course they will, we just read it -- ALL ISRAEL SHALL BE SAVED!

When? Why AFTER the Gentiles come in -- those who come from the east and west and north and south (Luke 13:28).  These Gentiles will all come in FIRST, that's what Paul taught us if we are not "ignorant" of God's "mystery."  So if the the Jews are NOT FIRST, what are they according to the "context, context, context" of YOUR PROOF Sciprtures to me?  Let's read it, it's the NEXT VERSE IN CONTEXT -- Luke 13:30:

"And, behold, there are LAST [the last-called Gentiles] which shall be FIRST [first IN the kingdom, first SAVED], and there are FIRST [the first-called Jews] which SHALL BE LAST."

Oh, yes, they "SHALL BE" in God's family. They "SHALL BE" saved, but they will be saved, LAST!

One final thought just to expand you thinking out of the theological hole of "context," let me show you where God likens His chosen people Israel to the God-jeweled city of Jerusalem, and where He likens the world of the Gentiles to the most wretched city of the Gentiles, SODOM. What is the fate of the evil city state of Sodom and the evil city state of Jerusalem? Right now, God is calling a people from among the Gentiles, but in the resurrection we saw that Israel will be brought back to life and grafted back into the Vine of Life once more. But what of the rest of the Gentiles that are not chosen now and the rest of Israel who was not chosen for the Kingdom?

Ezekieal 16 tells us.  Read the "context" for sure, Brian, but then see the conclusions OF THE CONTEXT!  God says that Jerusalem [Israel] sinned FAR WORSE than even SODOM (Ezek. 16:48).  Yet we see that God will, nonetheless, YET SAVE ALL ISRAEL. When?  And if Sodom is also to be saved in future judgment, when will they also be saved?  Read it in (Ezek. 16:55) which tells us WHEN this will happen.

Seriously, Brian, if you think you can FIGHT the Scriptures and TWIST the Scriptures I have presented above, and suggest that I have in the LEAST taken them out of your 'holy context,' then you are FIGHTING GOD, and not me or my writings.

May God be with you, and open you eyes to these marvelous pearls of God's Word which have been trampled under the feet of swine for centuries.

Ray

[Foxx]

Kat, in regards to the verse in Matthew

11:11  Truly I say to you, Among those who have been born of women there has not risen a greater one than John the Baptist. But the least in the kingdom of Heaven is greater than he.

I don't think Matthew 11:11 is stating that John will not be in  the first resurrection. Jesus is saying that as great as John is (as a mortal imperfect man) the least in the Kingdom of heaven will be even greater. Jesus is making a comparison statement here. A comparison of how even though John was great as a carnal minded human the spiritual greatness of those in the kingdom of heaven is greater than all he did .

[eggi]

Hi all,

Just a quick note (more to myself than anyone else) about something I thought about this subject which has been discussed in this thread (one of them at least). Hope I am on the right thread, if not forgive me (I was thinking about this while vacuum cleaning, and just made a quick pitstop here).

What I think is the key to answering some of the questions about what it means to have the Spirit of God could be "understanding and knowledge". The Spirit of God gives us understanding and knowledge about God. This is definitely something we DON'T possess when we are born, or children for that matter. Jesus had this knowledge, He KNEW God. John might have known certain things about the Messiah that was to come, he was able to "prepare the way" for the Lord.

To KNOW Jesus Christ is life aeonian John 17:3:

Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.

The beginning of Titus:

Paul, a bond-servant of God and an apostle of Jesus Christ, for the faith of those chosen of God and the knowledge of the truth which is according to godliness, in the hope of eternal life, which God, who cannot lie, promised long ages ago, 3but at the proper time manifested, even His word, in the proclamation with which I was entrusted according to the commandment of God our Savior,...

1 John 2:20:

But ye have an unction from the Holy One, and ye know all things.

I don't have time to go into more detail about what I'm thinking about here. These are just my thoughts on this, now I must get back to my house chores.

God bless you,
Eirik

[Kat]

Hi Foxx,

I think what Jesus is saying and is also backed up by all the Scriptures that are posted here, is that that John was a very godly man, Jesus even states "among those born of women there has not risen one greater." But even as John was such, the very least to enter the kingdom (first resurrection) will be greater than any human being alive, because Jesus did say that there was none greater human born than John.

Here also is an email.

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php?topic=2385.0 -----------------

John the Baptist will not be in the Kingdom before us. And that goes for all the patriarchs of old. Heb. 11 proves that none of them received the promises to them and furthermore, it proves that they will come into the Kingdom only by and through US (See Verses 39-40).

    God be with you,
    Ray