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Spurious Passage Revisited
Duane:
Going back to the original question: It DOES NOT say that Jesus "sweat great drops of blood" it sez:
Luke 22:44 "...and His sweat was as (if) it WERE great drops of blood falling down to the ground."
Hope this helps understand the agony of Jesus.
Gina:
--- Quote from: Extol on June 10, 2012, 07:57:49 AM ---In his recent Judas article, Ray mentioned another spurious passage, Luke 23:34--
Father forgive them, for they know not what they do.
This is one of those passages that sounds like something Jesus might say (knowing what we know about the plan of God), so I don't think it's that big a deal to me. Just curious if anyone knows why he included this in the article...
--- End quote ---
Hi there Extol.
I about fell off my chair when I read that was spurious (about a year or so ago). I should be more like you and not get so worked up so easily by things like that.
Yeah, I don't understand why he used that passage either. Maybe because we don't have the originals of any of the manuscripts, only copies of the originals--so who knows for absolute certain what those originals said.
But it does sound like something He would've said. Or that's me looking at Jesus through the rose-colored glasses of Christendom. I don't know.
But I want to know, Why would He say that?
They knew what they were doing! They knew exactly what they were doing. They might not have known WHY they were doing it, but they knew He was innocent and never did anything wrong and that they were only going along with the desires of those who were chanting for His death, and that they were total cowards.
They knew what Barabas was! And yeah, I've heard the lofty schpeel about how Barabas' freedom is prophetic / symbolic of Jesus setting the "captive" free by paying the penalty for sin. But I call foul on that because at that point Jesus hadn't even died or even been hung on the cross. Death is the penalty for sin -- not simply the shedding of blood.
If Jesus ever said "Father forgive them for they know NOT what they do..." I'll eat my hat. (What does that mean anyway: "I'll eat my hat." God I hope it's not too embarrassing. :D )
But then I had another problem to work out.
Acts 7:59 While they were stoning him, Stephen prayed, “Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.” 60 Then he fell on his knees and cried out, “Lord, do not hold this sin against them.”
And I thought, Oh great! If Stephen said that, then that means maybe Jesus really did say the other verse.
But look at what Stephen really said:
"Lord, do not hold this sin against them "; he never said: for they know not what they do.
They did too know what they were doing! They may not have understood WHY they were doing it. Honestly, how sick and ignorant does a person have to be to stone an innocent man to death who was preaching salvation and not feel even the slightest twinge of guilt?
But I suppose he wouldn't have been out of line to say that. And when I figure how Saul (later Paul) was there casting his vote against Stephen (doing it out of ignorance), for sure Jesus did answer Stephen's prayer. Jesus didn't hold that sin against Paul, without a doubt.
I guess because I can't picture myself saying those words, that's why I personally have a hard time believing he said them. They sound a little too lofty or something for me.
But now it dawns on me that maybe the reason I'm having trouble there too is because those were words that God inspired Stephen to say. It wasn't that Stephen was some super holy, humble man, but simply a man that God chose to do that miracle through. I mean, it would take a miracle for anyone to respond that way to something so horrific. Do you agree?
EDIT: I just remembered Hebrews 12:24 says: "...and to the sprinkled blood that speaks a better word than the blood of Abel." And that leads me to believe that Jesus at the very least said, "Father forgive them."
Does that help at all? (I talk a lot, don't I! Geez. Sorry about that.)
doug:
--- Quote from: Gina on June 18, 2012, 12:10:00 AM ---
Father forgive them, for they know not what they do.
Yeah, I don't understand why he used that passage either.
But it does sound like something He would've said.
But I want to know, Why would He say that?
They knew what they were doing! They knew exactly what they were doing.
If Jesus ever said "Father forgive them for they know NOT what they do..." I'll eat my hat.
--- End quote ---
Hello Gina,
Maybe to help you out in your study of this passage you have to consider that when Jesus was speaking to a crowd, He spoke in parables. In the last part of the phrase - for they no not what they do; what do you suppose the spiritual application could be? At this point, as I have not checked it out, I wouldn't be able to help you. Except it may go along the lines of... they will not know that they will have to experience working out their salvation with greater stripes in the Kingdom Age?
p.s. I've been told that hats have a very sweaty flavor and that they also tend to make one constipated... wouldn't what for you to have to go thru that experience....
Gina:
haha, Yeah, I wouldn't want to go through that either. Thanks.
Yes, I realize that they didn't understand Jesus' parables so they couldn't repent and be healed.
Here's why I say they knew WHAT they were doing, but not necessarily why they were doing it:
John 3:2 The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that you are a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that you do, except God be with him.
Nicodemus acknowledged to Jesus, "we [me and my pharisee friends] know that you are a teacher come from God, for no man can do these miracles that you do, except God be with him.
Matt 12:7 If you had known what these words mean, 'I desire mercy, not sacrifice,' you would not have condemned the innocent.
John 2:25 And needed not that any should testify of man: for he knew what was in man.
Jesus knew the hearts of men. He knew they knew well and good they were condemning Him for nothing, but they did it anyway.
Judas walked with Jesus for three and a half years. He knew for sure that Jesus was innocent.
They were all extremely jealous of Him. Every last one of them. That's not to say that they could have done any differently because it had to be that way.
If they didn't know what they were doing was wrong, if they didn't know that they were condemning an innocent man, I'll eat that hat. But I really don't think I'm going to have to eat that hat. ;) I don't know what else to say.
I guess what I'm saying is, I have no problem with that passage being spurious; but I don't take issue with Ray using it in his Judas paper either. I thank God I was not in Judas' shoes. There but for the grace of God go I. I know my heart--it's no better than theirs and I can definitely see myself having done what Judas and the others did given the same set of circumstances.
I hope that makes sense. :)
santgem:
--- Quote from: Extol on June 10, 2012, 07:57:49 AM ---In his recent Judas article, Ray mentioned another spurious passage, Luke 23:34--
Father forgive them, for they know not what they do.
This is one of those passages that sounds like something Jesus might say (knowing what we know about the plan of God), so I don't think it's that big a deal to me. Just curious if anyone knows why he included this in the article...
--- End quote ---
Hello Extol,
Are you referring to the article "Was it better for Judas had he not been born"?
Oh that Christians would believe the Word of God.
Is it possible for Jesus to forgive Judas? Possible? He already has forgiven Judas for his sins! Need proof?
Listen carefully: Were those who spit in the face of Jesus; punched Him in the mouth; beat Him within an inch of His life; nailed Him to a rugged cross; and pierced Him with a spear; somehow guilty of a LESSER crime than that of Judas giving Jesus a KISS ON THE CHECK?! Give me a break. How do intelligent theologians come up with such utter nonsense. What did Jesus say regarding all those involved in His condemnation, torture, and death? Let's read it:
"Then said Jesus, "Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do" (Luke 23:34).
FORGIVE THEM! Who are the "them?" Don't you think it includes "all of them?" Who are the "all of them" responsible in one way or another for the crucifixion of our LORD? Certainly it involved all those who took part in any aspect of His real crucifixion, and that would include not only those who nailed Him to the cross, but those who beat Him; and those who mocked Him; and those priests who falsely condemned Him. Is not Judas also included in all of "them?"
Who else? What about the Pharisees of whom Jesus said: "...Ye seek to KILL Me...." (John 8:37)? What about all those who assembled together the chief priests, the scribes, the elders, the people, the high priest, the deputies, the high council, and all those who "Consulted that they might take Jesus by subtility, and KILL Him" (Matt. 26:4)? There were multitudes besides Judas.
What about all those Jews that said, "His blood be on us and on our children" (Matt. 27:25)? What about all those Jesus included when we read that "He [Jesus] would not walk in Judea, because the JEWS sought to kill Him" (John 7:1)? What about the entire nation of Israel? Were they included in the crucifixion of Jesus? Answer: "...let it be known to you all and to the entire people of Israel in the name of Jesus Christ, the Nazarene, Whom YOU [the entire nation] CRUCIFY" (Acts 4:10)? What about all the Gentiles? Are we guilty as well as the Jews? Did not Paul say that the sins of the Gentiles were also covered by His crucifixion:
"For I delivered unto you [you Gentile Corinthians & other Gentiles -- see Phil. 3:3] first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures" (I Cor. 15:3). The truth is that Jesus was put to the cross by the sins of the whole world. We are all responsible. But what is Jesus' response to all these sins? "Forgive them." In God's heart and mind, we are already forgiven:
"God Who quickens the dead, and calls those things which are not as though they were" (Rom . 4:17).
The forgiveness of the whole world is not as yet a fact, BUT IT WILL BE. When?
"WHEN Thy Judgments are in the earth, [then] the inhabitants of THE WHOLE WORLD will learn righteousness" (Isaiah 26:9).
God has prophesied the outcome of the human race, and that outcome is that there shall be no more pain, death, sorrow or curse (Rev. 21), and that God will be "ALL in all" (I Cor. 15:28).
Yes, Judas did a evil and cowardly thing, but it was written and prophesied, and therefore someone had to do it. But let's not think that Judas will be forever doomed to a hellish torture. He will not. Judas repented and therefore is qualified for salvation:
"But this Man [Jesus], because He continues forever, hath an unchangeable priesthood. Wherefore He is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by Him, seeing He ever lives to make intercession for them" (Heb. 7:24-25).
The whole human race has this promise.
It is not spurious passages. What my understanding is that Judas and all of us are included in Jesus saying that "Father forgive them, for they know not what they do".
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