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Spurious Passage Revisited
Extol:
--- Quote from: Gina on June 18, 2012, 12:10:00 AM ---
--- Quote from: Extol on June 10, 2012, 07:57:49 AM ---In his recent Judas article, Ray mentioned another spurious passage, Luke 23:34--
Father forgive them, for they know not what they do.
This is one of those passages that sounds like something Jesus might say (knowing what we know about the plan of God), so I don't think it's that big a deal to me. Just curious if anyone knows why he included this in the article...
--- End quote ---
But I want to know, Why would He say that?
They knew what they were doing! They knew exactly what they were doing. They might not have known WHY they were doing it, but they knew He was innocent and never did anything wrong and that they were only going along with the desires of those who were chanting for His death, and that they were total cowards.
They knew what Barabas was! And yeah, I've heard the lofty schpeel about how Barabas' freedom is prophetic / symbolic of Jesus setting the "captive" free by paying the penalty for sin. But I call foul on that because at that point Jesus hadn't even died or even been hung on the cross. Death is the penalty for sin -- not simply the shedding of blood.
If Jesus ever said "Father forgive them for they know NOT what they do..." I'll eat my hat. (What does that mean anyway: "I'll eat my hat." God I hope it's not too embarrassing. :D )
--- End quote ---
Hi Gina,
I always assumed that the "them" was referring to the people performing the actual execution, the Roman soldiers. (i.e. "Forgive them, for they are only doing their job and they don't know who I am.")
Then after I came to BT I thought the request for forgiveness was for all of them (the crowd, the priests, Pilate, the soldiers), and "they know not what they do" referred to their lack of free will. In other words, "Father, forgive them, for they are the ones chosen to do this, that the prophecies might be fulfilled, and our mission may be accomplished." Just like Pharaoh and Nebuchadrezzar and the King of Assyria were used to bring glory to God (and were completely oblivious to that fact), the people involved in Christ's crucifixion were simply the ones chosen to do it--because someone had to. Thus, I believed that "Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do" was God accepting ultimate responsibility for our sins, since we are made too weak to resist.
Now that I've read that it's a spurious passage, I'm not sure what to think about it. :o
But I agree with you, it seems reasonable that Jesus at least said "Father, forgive them." (Or it is something he WOULD say.)
Gina:
Yes, Extol, that's precisely what I thought--everything you said about Him forgiving those nailing him to the cross, and then later after coming to B-T realizing He was talking about everyone involved. (Santgem, thank you for pulling out that excerpt from Ray's Judas paper!)
I think the one scripture that supports Him saying that is one that I've seen Deborah (Arcturus) and others post before that I posted originally:
Hebrews 12:24 says: "...and to the sprinkled blood that speaks a better word than the blood of Abel."
Instead of His blood crying out for vengeance, it speaks a better word: "Father forgive them for they know not what they do."
These verses wanted to stump me too:
Matt 23:7 Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city: 35 That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar. 36 Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.
But this is interesting: Jesus' blood is not incorporated into those that they killed, only the blood of Abel to Zacharias.
37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! 38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate. 39 For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.
Much like Joseph's brothers did when Joseph saved them out of their famine after he rose to power--after they threw him in that pit and left him for dead. They threw their arms around him and wept -- so happy to see Joseph, who they didn't even recognize! And for that matter couldn't have known he would be their savior, because just like the pharisees who were blinded to what Jesus was there for, so were Joseph's brothers. It had to happen that way.
One thing is for sure, forgiveness alone cannot get the sin out of the sinner (http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php?topic=7047.0); and for that we need God's righteous judgment and that includes the kindness of God which leads to repentance:
"Forgive them." In God's heart and mind, we are already forgiven:
"God Who quickens the dead, and calls those things which are not as though they were" (Rom . 4:17).
The forgiveness of the whole world is not as yet a fact, BUT IT WILL BE. When?
"WHEN Thy Judgments are in the earth, [then] the inhabitants of THE WHOLE WORLD will learn righteousness" (Isaiah 26:9).
-from the Judas paper.
That makes sense to me. I hope it helps a little.
God bless you, Extol! Great discussion. :)
Joel:
I didn't see Acts 3:17 in the spurious passages, where Peter is speaking about the Crucifixion.
Acts 3:17 And now, brethren, I wot that through ignorance ye did it, as did also your rulers.
Paul speaking to the Corinthians concerning the plan of God, in 1st Corinthians 2:8, also not listed as spurious.
1st Corinthians 2:8 Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.
Joel
Gina:
--- Quote from: Joel on June 19, 2012, 08:32:01 PM ---I didn't see Acts 3:17 in the spurious passages, where Peter is speaking about the Crucifixion.
Acts 3:17 And now, brethren, I wot that through ignorance ye did it, as did also your rulers.
Paul speaking to the Corinthians concerning the plan of God, in 1st Corinthians 2:8, also not listed as spurious.
1st Corinthians 2:8 Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.
Joel
--- End quote ---
Right. I'm seeing it now. If they had known, they wouldn't have had the heart to crucify Him. God had to blind them to the Truth to believe a lie so that they would feel enough anger towards Him and feel like they had the perfect excuse to do what they did. God hardened them like he hardened Pharaoh against Moses; otherwise, they would have gone all soft and had pity on Jesus and would have been totally unwilling to sacrifice Him. And we'd all be out of a Savior.
Gina:
I don't know if I should feel sorry for the Pharisees. I mean, if they didn't know what they were doing then they deserve the fewer lashes, right?
Luke 12:48 But the one who does not know and does things deserving punishment will be beaten with few blows.
Hmmm... Stymied again.
I'm not exaggerating when I say I thoroughly enjoy studying the bible. I hate being bored, and I am never, ever bored when I'm studying the bible -- even if I'm stumped because now I trust that the answer is there because God's word doesn't contradict. Thank you, Ray! (And all who loved him and made it possible for him to teach someone like me!)
Ray said in an email: We will also be saved from: pain, disease, heartache, fear, weariness, boredom, hatred, laziness, immorality, stupidity, vanity, inferiority, weakness, addiction,
http://bible-truths.com/email13.htm
I told a forum member that it makes me very glad to know (to truly believe) that God doesn't want me to be bored anymore than I want to be bored. Ah! What an awesome God!
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