is everyone being lead to repentance

[newgene87]

so i've noticed for a while Romans 2:4 has been used quite a bit and i'm studying the verse itself and i need a little help

"Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God LEADS THEE to repentance?"

so my question is: is the goodness of God leading EVERYONE to Repentance??? {i just did a word study on "lead" there, and wow, i'm blown (JUST DID IT )}..... but still, is Paul saying EVERYONE will be "lead" (or induced) to repentance?? In this study, i was referenced to Matthew 21:28-31 about the two sons being told to go work in a vineyard, and the second son said, "...I will not: but aftwerward he REPENTED, and went." a little light from vincent's word studies, revealed to me that the second son represent the "tax-collectors and prostitutes" which, i think spiritually, represents all people in a sense right?? (i mean love of money, intimidating one another, spiritual adultery, idolaters etc etc)...soooooo, if they "rejected" the father at first, but afterwards repented; does that correlate that EVERYONE (in a sense) are being lead or induced to repentance? is this a spiritual match??  i may be looking too deep in the text; but this will increase my understanding on universal salvation. thanks family 

[Dave in Tenn]

Straight answer:  Everyone will be led to repentance by the goodness of God, each in his own turn.  The publicans and the harlots go in BEFORE the Chief Priests and the Elders, but that does not (and CANNOT) mean that the Chief Priests and the Elders do not go in at all.

Side issue:  a "spiritual match" is a second (or third or fourth) witness of scripture that teaches the same spiritual truth.  In a way, ALL the parables of Jesus are Spiritual matches, because all of them have to do with the many called and the few chosen. 

I see it this way, but I don't claim to be 'right':  Everybody coming out of empty religion and self-righteousness has done their time as the "second son".  Peter was the "second son" in capital letters when he said he would never deny the Lord, yet did so three times in one night.  As I read it, he did precisely what the Lord Jesus said he would do.  So have/are/will we.  Is it possible that those of us who can identify with the "second son" in our pasts (and even in our presents) can repent and behave like the "first"?  Recognize our knee-jerk carnal enmity--the Beast rising out of the sea--and repent?  Lord, I hope so.       

[Gina]

Is it possible that those of us who can identify with the "second son" in our pasts (and even in our presents) can repent and behave like the "first"?  Recognize our knee-jerk carnal enmity--the Beast rising out of the sea--and repent?  Lord, I hope so.     

Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

I guess that means the goodness of God that leads to repentance is being given the eyes to see when our beast is rising up out of the "sea" and using the power of God to "pluck out our eye," etc.?  In a sense, judging ourselves?

It's not a warm, fuzzy feeling from someone else or "out there" somewhere that leads people to re-think their motives?

Or is it both?

[acomplishedartis]

Is it possible that those of us who can identify with the "second son" in our pasts (and even in our presents) can repent and behave like the "first"?  Recognize our knee-jerk carnal enmity--the Beast rising out of the sea--and repent?  Lord, I hope so.     

Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

I guess that means the goodness of God that leads to repentance is being given the eyes to see when our beast is rising up out of the "sea" and using the power of God to "pluck out our eye," etc.?  In a sense, judging ourselves?

It's not a warm, fuzzy feeling from someone else or "out there" somewhere that leads people to re-think their motives?

Or is it both?

Yeah, it's not a warm, fuzzy feeling when we finally start judging our selves and rethinking our motives- when we repent after realizing that under certain circumstances we can be guilty of all.


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Here is a question I have. I was going to make a whole new tread about it, But I guess it will fit fine on this one.

I know someone that was never in church, that didn't was indoctrinated by pastors on his past and that doesn't have a religious background. A couple years ago he started reading the old testament with a lot of attention and sincerity. And now he can be able to easily realize and accept the plan of the salvation of all. When we talked, he already didn't believe in Hell, free-will, and had already understood that God create evil. So I pretty much was able to put all the pieces together for him, and bring some hope.

So How can someone be out of her, if he was never really inside?

Well, I know there was a time when he used t believe in free-will before start reading the Bible. But still my question stands. Or maybe I am wrong and he still needs the capacity and motivation to want to overcome the world...

What do you guys think about it?



 

[Kat]

Hi newgene,

Rom 2:2  But we know that the judgment of God is according to truth against those who practice such things.
v. 3  And do you think this, O man, you who judge those practicing such things, and doing the same, that you will escape the judgment of God?
v. 4  Or do you despise the riches of His goodness, forbearance, and longsuffering, not knowing that the goodness of God leads you to repentance?
v. 5  But in accordance with your hardness and your impenitent heart you are treasuring up for yourself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God,
v. 6  who "will render to each one according to his deeds":

There in Romans 2 in his speech Paul was trying to convict them of their carnality. It was predetermined that the Jews who were first to receive the gospel would reject it and then it would go to the Gentiles and therefore they would go ahead of the Jews into the kingdom. Bottom line no one comes to repentance and salvation unless the Father brings them to Christ.

John 6:44  No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.

In this age salvation is only being offered to a very few, but the rest of mankind will be brought to salvation in the next age. Here is a couple of things to read on this.

http://bible-truths.com/email17.htm --------------------------

he was speaking to the Jews only, okay.  Now then, were the Jews the FIRST to be offered this salvation?  Yes, of course they were -- "go NOT the way of the Samaritan" -- remember?  But what is the context of these verses?  Not all of the JEWS that call Jesus "Lord, Lord" will "enter" the narrow gate to the Kingdom, will they?  No they won't. (Matt. 7:21).  Even of those Jews who "seek to enter" will "NOT BE ABLE"   (Luke 13:24).  They are the FIRST TO BE CALLED, but they will not be the FIRST TO ENTER.

"There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye [Gk: 'all of you'] shall see Abraham [Abraham was not a Jew], and Isaac [Isaac was not a Jew], and Jacob [Jacob was not a Jew] and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you [JEWS] yourselves thrust out.  And they shall come from the east [Jews?  No, GENTILES], and from the west [Gentiles], and from the north [etc.], and from the south, and shall sit down IN THE KINGDOM of God" (Luke 13:28-29).

The Jews should have been FIRST, but the Patriarchs and the Gentiles will enter before them. The Jews will NOT ENTER FIRST! 

But will they EVER enter?  Do the Scriptures state that "they will NEVER, EVER, enter?"  Is there such a Scripture in all the Bible, Brian?  NO, there is not. There are hundreds and hundreds of Scriptures [you gave me but two] that state that the evil, wicked, sinner, unregenerate, unrepentant, etc., etc., etc., WILL NOT be saved in this lifetime.  But is there ONE verse of Scripture that states they will "never EVER be saved?"  No, Brian there is not. There is a plan of God, a schedule, a time table, and "order" to who God saves and when.

Let's read I Cor. 15:22-24 in a more accurate translation than the KJV: 

"For since, in fact, through a man came death, through a Man also, comes the resurrection of the dead.  For even as in Adam, ALL are dying, thus also, in Christ, shall ALL [it's the SAME 'all'] be vivified. Yet each in his own CLASS [or order]: [1] the Firstfruit, Christ; [2] thereupon those who are Christ's in His presence;  [3] thereafter the consummation [those at the end, the LAST]..."

Paul explains this perfectly and simply:  In Romans 11 Paul tells us that the natural branches [the JEWS] have been broken off and the wild branches of the Gentiles grafted in. But is this FOREVER? NO.  The natural branches can also be grafted back into the tree once again, and Paul says that they WILL BE (Rom. 11:24). Now what is the "context" of all this Jew/Gentile business?

"For I would not, brethren, that ye should be IGNORANT [we don't want to be 'ignorant' of this context, context, context, Brian] of this mystery [a mystery that ALL OF CHRISTENDOM does not yet comprehend], lest ye should be wise in your own conceits [no danger of that ever happening, do you think?] that blindness in part is happened to Israel, UNTIL [if you don't know the meaning of the word 'until,' Brian, look it up] ... UNTIL the fullness of the Gentiles be come in" (Rom. 11:25).

Blindness to Israel was only to be UNTIL, UNTIL the fullness of the Gentiles be come in.  Has the "fullness of the Gentiles" as yet come in?   No.  Well what about all of these millions and millions of "Jesus" rejecting Jews down through the centuries. Can they "reject" Jesus as virtually all of Judaism has done and still be saved IN THIS LIFE TIME?  NO.  Well then, just when WILL they be grafted "back into the vine" if not in THIS life time?   Why in the next, of course. All of these DEAD Jews will be resurrected back to life in order to BE grafted back in, but they will have some mighty DEEP REPENTING TO DO FIRST!   (See Phil. 2:9-11 Vs. I Cor. 12:3).

God used Israel for a time and then cast them away, but, as Paul asks:

"Have they stumbled that they should fall?  God forbid, but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the GENTILES, for to provoke them [the Jews, Israel] to jealousy... For if the casting away of them [Israel -- Israel NOT entering the narrow gate, NOT entering the kingdom when it was offered] be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but LIFE FROM THE DEAD?   For if the firstfuit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, SO ARE THE BRANCHES... AND SO ALL ISRAEL SHALL BE SAVED... " (Rom. 11: 11, 15, & 26). 

But you see, they are NOT SAVED FIRST, are they?  No, they are saved LAST!

If the Jews are cast out of the kingdom and not able to enter the strait gate, when will they be able?  When they are grafted BACK INTO THE VINE, in the next life, in the resurrection, in the judgment. For in JUDGMENT, they WILL learn righteousness: 

"When Thy JUDGMENTS are in the earth, the inhabitants of THE WORLD  WILL LEARN  RIGHTEOUSNESS" (Isa. 26:9)

And finally, back to your "context, context, context" verses.  Clearly we have seen that there are MANY who will not be saved in this life. In fact, MOST OF THE JEWS will now be saved in they life. They will not enter through the strait gate and they will not enter the kingdom. They will NOT be the first to be saved, but will they be saved at ALL?  Yes, of course they will, we just read it -- ALL ISRAEL SHALL BE SAVED!

When? Why AFTER the Gentiles come in -- those who come from the east and west and north and south (Luke 13:28).  These Gentiles will all come in FIRST, that's what Paul taught us if we are not "ignorant" of God's "mystery."  So if the the Jews are NOT FIRST, what are they according to the "context, context, context" of YOUR PROOF Sciprtures to me?  Let's read it, it's the NEXT VERSE IN CONTEXT -- Luke 13:30:

"And, behold, there are LAST [the last-called Gentiles] which shall be FIRST [first IN the kingdom, first SAVED], and there are FIRST [the first-called Jews] which SHALL BE LAST."

Oh, yes, they "SHALL BE" in God's family. They "SHALL BE" saved, but they will be saved, LAST!


http://bible-truths.com/lake10.html -----------------------------

"Behold, I will make them of THE SYNAGOGUE OF SATAN, which say they are Jews and are not" (Rev. 3:9.)

I had a Klu Klux Klan member write me saying that this means there are people claiming to be of the Jewish race, but are not of the Jewish race. Ridiculous nonsense. The Book of Revelation is spiritual and symbolic. This is not speaking of literal people claiming to be literal Jews of the literal tribe of Judah. Besides, what "spiritual" lesson would there be in such a statement in the first place? No, these are people who claim that they are Jews, but what kind of "Jews?" Why, "spiritual Jews," of course! Who is a "spiritual Jew?" Let the Scriptures answer:

"But he is a Jew [who is born of the Tribe of Judah? Who practices the religion of Judaism?...], which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men but of God" (Rom. 2:29.)

Well, if according to the Scriptures, a real Jew is one who is a Jew "inwardly," then who is a person who practices Judaism and is literally of the Tribe of Judah? Again, let's have the Scriptures tell us:

"For he is NOT a Jew, which is one outwardly [one who is physically circumcised the eighth day, one who physically practices Judaism, and one who is physically from the tribe of Judah, and who may even physically live in Jerusalem, Israel], neither is that circumcision, which is outward [made by the cutting off of physical flesh with a physical knife] in the flesh" (Rom. 2:28.)

Remember in previous lessons how we learned that it is only by matching spiritual with spiritual that we can understand God's Word? God's "WORD"! Jesus Christ is "The Word" of God (John 1:1.) And Jesus Christ said that the WORDS that He spoke were "spirit." The book of Revelation is the "Testimony of Jesus Christ." The book of Revelation is, therefore, also spiritual. These people in the Church of Smyrna and Philadelphia claimed to be spiritual Jews, who are —spiritually converted. Anyone and everyone who is spiritually converted to Jesus Christ is a spiritual Jew. Paul tells the Gentile Galatians that they are the children of the promise made for the Jews through Abraham. Even Jesus tells us that the children of the kingdom (the literal line of physical Israel) will be cast out and the Gentiles from the east and the west will sit in their place in the kingdom of God (Matt. 8:10-11.)

These people in the Churches of Smyrna and Philadelphia lied. They claimed to be spiritually converted (for that is what God's definition of "a Jew" really is.) And a natural man or woman from the natural physical tribe of Judah is not a real Jew at all. The derivation of the name "Jew" comes from yadah and it means, "to give thanks, laud, praise." But the natural [carnal] Jew CANNOT give thanks, laud, or praise to God because,

"Because the carnal mind [the natural physical mind of every Jew from birth, and certainly Gentiles as well] is enmity [hatred] against God: for it is not subject to the [spiritual] law of God, neither indeed can be [or is able]" (Rom. 8:7.)

When will we begin to understand that the teachings of the New Testament are not carnal, not physical of the flesh? We are to come out of carnality and be converted, and become spiritual Jews, a people who truly worship (give thanks, laud, and praise) God IN SPIRIT.
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mercy, peace and love
Kat

[Gina]

These people in the Churches of Smyrna and Philadelphia lied. They claimed to be spiritually converted (for that is what God's definition of "a Jew" really is.) And a natural man or woman from the natural physical tribe of Judah is not a real Jew at all. The derivation of the name "Jew" comes from yadah and it means, "to give thanks, laud, praise." But the natural [carnal] Jew CANNOT give thanks, laud, or praise to God because,

"Because the carnal mind [the natural physical mind of every Jew from birth, and certainly Gentiles as well] is enmity [hatred] against God: for it is not subject to the [spiritual] law of God, neither indeed can be [or is able]" (Rom. 8:7.)

When will we begin to understand that the teachings of the New Testament are not carnal, not physical of the flesh? We are to come out of carnality and be converted, and become spiritual Jews, a people who truly worship (give thanks, laud, and praise) God IN SPIRIT.

Kat,

Thanks for pulling out those excerpts! 

I'm seeing it.  We've known lots of carnal Jews that'll praise God and say, "My God is so great, look at all he's done for me." 

But when shown the truth behind the scriptures and how God will save all, their countenance changes and they're all like, Umm - nooo thank you.  That's not my God. 

So they're giving thanks, but like Ray's saying, they're completely unable to thank or praise or laud the true God.

Very cool. 

[newgene87]

oh thank you Kat!  . that was exactly the respone i needed and it put so many pieces together for me. Like wow, it's still amazing how all in all God is truly working to save all...most after death. should i start to see that's the purpose for death? like, who WOULDNT repent AFTER dying? I WOULD. definitly if i'm raised. regardless, THANK YOU. that was the answer i needed

[Gina]

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Here is a question I have. I was going to make a whole new tread about it, But I guess it will fit fine on this one.

I know someone that was never in church, that didn't was indoctrinated by pastors on his past and that doesn't have a religious background. A couple years ago he started reading the old testament with a lot of attention and sincerity. And now he can be able to easily realize and accept the plan of the salvation of all. When we talked, he already didn't believe in Hell, free-will, and had already understood that God create evil. So I pretty much was able to put all the pieces together for him, and bring some hope.

So How can someone be out of her, if he was never really inside?

Well, I know there was a time when he used t believe in free-will before start reading the Bible. But still my question stands. Or maybe I am wrong and he still needs the capacity and motivation to want to overcome the world...

What do you guys think about it?

We all know how Ray says that we must first go into the church before we can come out of her.  But Mystery Babylon the Great and the World have very close ties.  MBtG is so corrupt (after all -- that's where Satan has his seat!), it may as well be the world -- that's my understanding.  I have always wondered about that, too, Moises.  And I would appreciate any and all answers on that myself.  How can someone who's never been in[doctrinated] into the belief system in the worldly church come out of her?  To me, the carnal-minded church in all of its ways is really not different than the carnal world itself.  So to me if you overcome the world (come out of the world), it's no different than coming out of the carnal church.

(_{Ducking out now}.  Please, mods and all, I'm not trying to be disagreeable to Ray on this subject.  I realize I may have over looked something.  But I may as well get my thoughts on this out in the open so they can either be blown to smithereens or brought back in line with the truth.  Thanks for your help! )

[newgene87]

this reminded of the man born blind in John 9. now, i may be way off here, but i hope not - it tickled that part of my brain

Jesus was leaving the temple (John 8:59), and passing along he sees a man blind from birth. Now, i'ma go on and believe that this man wasnt a seeker of God, didnt read the scriptures, nor wasnt apart of that sect or church of rabbis, scribes, and elders. Yet, after being healed, a "blind man from birth" began "teaching" and "reproving" Pharisees (which had to be a bold thing to do at the time, seeing it was only Jesus doing that). John 9:30-38 the man almost immediately understood salvation, the power of Christ, faith, believing Jesus works were actually from God, that Jesus was God, that He was a healer, and free will etc etc - meanwhile the pharisees had definitely heard the teachings of Jesus, witnessed healings, seen his works - yet did not believe; since Jesus began his ministry. So i guess i could see someone understanding truths of God, after being in the world (blind from birth) and not exactly in the church (pharisee) - when the Father draws them to Jesus. now if my two cents get shot down, i take that as a honor - always willing to learn. 

[Gina]

You have an excellent attitude (that's why your marriage will be a success).

[Gina]

Here is a question I have. I was going to make a whole new tread about it, But I guess it will fit fine on this one.

I know someone that was never in church, that didn't was indoctrinated by pastors on his past and that doesn't have a religious background. A couple years ago he started reading the old testament with a lot of attention and sincerity. And now he can be able to easily realize and accept the plan of the salvation of all. When we talked, he already didn't believe in Hell, free-will, and had already understood that God create evil. So I pretty much was able to put all the pieces together for him, and bring some hope.

So How can someone be out of her, if he was never really inside?

Okay, I just realized something else, Moises.  I hadn't considered a major component:  Since your friend has only now just found his First love, he hasn't yet left his First love, either.   You probably remember reading that there is a time in every believer's life where we leave our First love, right?  That's not a very pleasant thought concerning your friend.     I'm still trying to make sense of it myself.   Let me know what you think, okay?

[the truth]

Hello
I would say that there is two seeds on the earth....the seed Christ and the seed of Satan.Gen-3-14-15.And as Jesus displayed Matt-4-1-11.That seed overcomes All things.Hope this helps.