Who will we be?

[doug]

Hi Kat -

Thank you for your input.  But like me, as I stated... conjecture without scriptural backing... I believe yours also was an emotional response.

Here is an analogy to what I heard to this question (sex in heaven) while I was in the "church" which goes along to what I believe you tried to get across:

The question of lovemaking in "heaven" is like a child's question whether you can eat candy during "sex".  A funny question only from the adult's point of view.  Candy is one of children's greatest pleasures; how can they conceive a pleasure so intense that it renders candy irrelevant?  Only if you know both can you compare two things, and all those who have tasted both the delights of "sex" with the earthly beloved and the delights of "spiritual love" with God, testify that there is simply no comparison.

Kat, I am surely not saying what you contributed is not right.  I still have some questions about that analogy.  But, I equally have just as many questions with what I suggested.  I am just so happy to be able to discuss this kind of stuff on a like minded forum.  I believe truth will prevail... and I will be settled in my mind either way!  I have no biased opinion!  I have no point to prove!  Lewis and I can't learn if we don't ask... and speaking for myself now... foolishness to some doesn't mean that it is foolishness to me!

doug

[the truth]

None of us are nearly as spiritually smart as we think we are.  We are at the spiritual intellectual level of an unborn baby.

Man I am reminded of that everyday John!I have to agree!

Wanted to ask because your statement:"The Scripture also state that God will have Sons and Daughters."Caught my attention.

In 1Jn 3:2  Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

So my question is.IT seems as if all the Scriptures that refer to Sons and Daughters are in the the reference as to what we are BEFORE we put on Immortality.

I dont know ..like I said your qoute caught my attention.Jerry

[doug]

Mark, you answered my questions specifically with those scriptures you provided.  Especially Mk. 16:12 where it states appearing in another form...  I take it that this is probably how we will appear to those "flesh" dwelling beings not in the resurrection and how we will minister to them.  We can't be invisible... I don't see how that can work!  That was one of the hang ups I had about our new bodies... how we would be recognized by others if an invisible spirit.

I see now that what I mistakenly thought was conjecture actually was not, as you did provide scriptural proof.  I have read those scriptures before... but not into the context to this application "spirit beings" in the Kingdom Age.  Before I studied this forum I knew of no such thing as a Kingdom Age!  I certainly am sincere in what I post, and with all of your scriptural help, I can avoid not to "think above that which is written."  If I just sit on the side lines so to speak, and not dive into questions with a humble learning attitude, I will never learn the deeper concepts of God's word.

When you said "hope this helps".... yes sir, it most certainly does!  I can't learn unless I throw out seeming stupid questions.  But, at the same time this question is not so stupid to me and most importantly I pray that because of my unfounded comments I don't make anyone fall in their understanding to the correct interpretation.  That's why we are all here... to help each other... iron sharpens iron!

doug

[the truth]

Hello,Doug
Hope all is well.I understand your trying to work through this Subject.It seems your answer could be found in this thought.... maybe not.If there is sex with a glorified body...which i myself don't believe as of now.Would that not be fornication? Because the Scripture says

Mat 22:30  For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven.

[John from Kentucky]

None of us are nearly as spiritually smart as we think we are.  We are at the spiritual intellectual level of an unborn baby.

Man I am reminded of that everyday John!I have to agree!

Wanted to ask because your statement:"The Scripture also state that God will have Sons and Daughters."Caught my attention.

In 1Jn 3:2  Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

So my question is.IT seems as if all the Scriptures that refer to Sons and Daughters are in the the reference as to what we are BEFORE we put on Immortality.

I dont know ..like I said your qoute caught my attention.Jerry

Hi Jerry,

The scripture I refer to is 2 Cor. 6:18, "I will be a Father to you, And you shall be my sons and daughters, Says the LORD Almighty."

Father/Yahweh/Jehovah----refers to His Self-Existent, Continuous Presence---He Who Is, Was, and Will BE.  So He is in the future too.   A Father---sons and daughters----I don't get sons and daughters without a sexual difference.

But who knows for sure but God.  For sure, if we will be sons and daughters, then God will have to set me down and draw me a picture as to the exact differences between a spiritual son and daughter rather than an it!   

John

[indianabob]

Hi Doug,

I think it likely that they in the physical kingdom of the age to come shall be taught in much the same way that we are today, by the leading of God's spirit in their minds and hearts as they learn to obey the new way of life that will be shown to them. We today learn by reading and by sharing the trials of our journey among ourselves and as God miraculously graces us with deeper understanding through the indwelling of His holy spirit. In like manner it may be that we will teach each person righteousness through the operation of the spirit through our efforts as members of Lord Jesus' staff of assistants, the Lake of Fire.

Isa 30:20  And though the Lord give you the bread of adversity, and the water of affliction, yet shall not thy teachers be removed into a corner any more, but thine eyes shall see thy teachers:

Isa 30:21  And thine ears shall hear a word behind thee, saying, This is the way, walk ye in it, when ye turn to the right hand, and when ye turn to the left.

John 15:26 "When the Counselor comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth who goes out from the Father, he will testify about me.

John 16:7 But I tell you the truth: It is for your good that I am going away. Unless I go away, the Counselor will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you.

Romans 8:26 In the same way, the Spirit helps us in our weakness. We do not know what we ought to pray for, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with groans that words cannot express.

1 John 2:27 As for you, the anointing you received from him remains in you, and you do not need anyone to teach you. But as his anointing teaches you about all things and as that anointing is real, not counterfeit--just as it has taught you, remain in him.

[doug]

Hello Jerry, good morning to you -
The conflict I have with you bringing the idea of the possibility of fornication if there being no marriage in the resurrection of the saints is that the point of heaven is that there will be absolutely no sin.  That being said, how could there possibly be fornication.  Marriage on earth is the physical sign.. the shadow of the spiritual marriage in heaven.  The physical has the fornication, adultery, lust, homosexuality, bestiality and all other perversions of marriage and relationships.  The spiritual is sin less.  I can see where sexuality in the Kingdom Age is that all earthly perversions of true sexuality are overcome, especially the biggest perversion, selfishness.  The highest pleasure is selfgiving and in the resurrection when all egotistic perversions are totally eliminated, all pleasure is increased.  Whether this includes the physical sexual pleasure or not, remains to be seen.  I don't see where the body is a mistake to be unmade in the resurrection, but a Divine work to show the splendor and glory of God's creativity.  If there is no physical eating involved, and no giving birth, and no breathing and all the other functions the physical body performs... then why a stomach, intestines, a nose, mouth, ears, and all the organs inside the body?  A person could go to extremes on this!  We will all be hollow bubbles like Casper the Ghost! Walking thru walls and doors!  I can't see God doing that to us.  Like I said, God may unmake what we make... but He does not unmake what He makes!

Like JFK has mentioned - if there are no genders then we will have to be "its"!  I just don't like the idea of viewing the resurrection life as looking at a Hallmark greeting card with cherubs flitting around!  I just can't see the God Family like that!

Okay, with that being said.... I like you Jerry... after comparing all the scriptures given here on this thread.... am leaning to no physical sex in "heaven".    Too many problems involved... just like here on earth.   

doug

[santgem]

For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven. Mat 22:30

And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth. Rev 5:10

Not a priestess or a queen...

Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. 1Jo 3:2

Not daughters when he shall appear.


We shall be like Jesus. Like the angels of God in heaven. We will be the sons of God.


And at that time, we will be and having JOCOPELO

[Kat]

Yes this is my contemplations, but meditated on considering what is stated in Scriptures and not an emotional responce. Now of course these physical bodies that we have now are for a purpose that goes beyond this life. I believe the reason we are born into this physical creation is so we can have this life experience and develop the characteristics and personalities that make us the unique individuals we are. God wants children, but He wants many variations of this human intellect that we develop, He could make us robots, but that's not what He wants. He already has myriads of angels created in exact designs to serve Him.

Now with this physical process He is developing the incredible varied distinctions that this life brings about, the most obvious is the male and female. But just think about all the variables that are in this life so that no two people come out the same; family, social class, environment, location, era, and then we have our own set of personal circumstances; gender, personality, health and trials. We all turn out as unique individuals and I think it is totally designed that way and will not be lose in resurrection. Why would God erase the personality and characteristics that has taken so much time and effort to develop that make us such interesting individuals? I believe that is a major important reason that we have this life and what God is seeking, a huge family of unique and interesting beings. I think after resurrection we will recognize each other as who we are/were.

Though of course there will be a huge difference, when we lose the flesh in the resurrection that will remove the corruption it contains and the desires that go with it. We will no longer be carnal flesh, we will be born into the kingdom and be in the image of God and He certainly does not have the pulls/desires of the flesh. We will be "like Him" (1Jn 3:2) in that Christ was the perfect servant of the Father.

John 5:30  I can of Myself do nothing. As I hear, I judge; and My judgment is righteous, because I do not seek My own will but the will of the Father who sent Me.

When we are born into the kingdom, married to Christ and become one with God and all of the fleshly desire will vanish with the corrupt/carnal flesh. We will be "like" Christ in that our utmost desire will not be to self, but to do the will of the Father. At that time where would there be a place for the physical bestial sexual desires of the carnal fleshly appetite? The physical flesh is temporary, it is just the means needed to accomplish a greater purpose for us and we will leave all this base carnal desires behind.

What will it be like to put on the spiritual body, maybe Paul when he was taken to the 3rd heaven got an idea. But even then there was no way for him to explain it, as I guess it just doesn't compare to anything physical.

2Co 12:3-4  And I know that this man was caught up into paradise--whether in the body or out of the body I do not know, God knows-- and he heard things that cannot be told, which man may not utter.

But Paul does say that God will not leave us completely in the dark on the mysteries and depths of God, who does reveal things as He sees fit.

1Co 2:9-10  But, as it is written, "What no eye has seen, nor ear heard, nor the heart of man imagined, what God has prepared for those who love him"-- these things God has revealed to us through the Spirit. For the Spirit searches everything, even the depths of God.

Mat 13:11  He answered and said to them, "Because it has been given to you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been given.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[indianabob]

Very well stated Kat,
We are blessed to be able to share this understanding even as limited as our vision is at this time.
Thank you for sharing, Indianabob

[the truth]

Hello, Doug

your quote:I just don't like the idea of viewing the resurrection life as looking at a Hallmark greeting card with cherubs flitting around!  I just can't see the God Family like that!........... As long as that don't become an Idol of the Heart.But instead its what you see the Scripture teaches you will be fine.That's what matters what you see the Scriptures teach.And as you have shared in your post you are starting to see that there may not be sex in heaven ..."to many problems".Well,Its not about he who gets the most votes wins as Ray would say.It has to be because that's what you see not what the bt nation sees .I would say there is at least a small percentage that don't agree totally on some matters Ray has taught on.And Ray himself shared things with close friends that many people have know idea about.And are we to say Ray didn't pass on with many thoughts he never shared about even some of the things he had already taught on? Again He personally told me in the only phone conversation I had with him."What I have not put in print will go to the grave with me."We are fortunate that the moderators we have guard the forum and its teachings.But we are more fortunate that they allow us a little wiggle room to try to voice our opinion on something we may... Think...is different than what Ray has taught.As per the post the other day about where are they now...some of the former posters of bt nation.Well i don't think they left because they didn't believe what Ray Taught.That is so obvious.Its just we have to keep pressing on to the fullness of Christ.And if you were to ask them if they believed..... EVERY....Exact....as RaY taught it.. that all would say yes?So if you can roll with the punches that are sure to come your way.As you have been able to do so far.You will learn alot!IF you don't give in to the crowd because that what they think!God Bless!

[the truth]

Amen onelovedread!

[Marky Mark]

That's why we are all here... to help each other... iron sharpens iron!

doug

Doug,I am glad that in your humility towards God and His Word that your eyes and ears can make the necessary spiritual adjustments needed to move forward and away from the milk of the Word, and towards the stronger meat, of discernment...

Heb 5:13 For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe.
Heb 5:14 But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.


Peace...Mark

[dave]

This is the only answer I can ever come up with..1Jn 3:2  Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

[lderr]

What I really wanted to know when I started this is . . . Will there  be curvy roads in heaven where I can ride my motorcycle in heaven?
Just kidding!
Lewis

[bpenelli]

Galatians 3
Common English Bible (CEB)

25 But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a custodian.
26 You are all God's children through faith in Christ Jesus. 27 All of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek; there is neither slave nor free; nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

1 Corinthians 12

12 Christ is just like the human body—a body is a unit and has many parts; and all the parts of the body are one body, even though there are many. 13 We were all baptized by one Spirit into one body, whether Jew or Greek, or slave or free, and we all were given one Spirit to drink.

Colossians 3

9 Don't lie to each other. Take off the old human nature with its practices 10 and put on the new nature, which is renewed in knowledge by conforming to the image of the one who created it. 11 In this image there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcised nor uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave nor free, but Christ is all things and in all people.

[Ireland]

Interesting thread! We all know we are not to add to the word, but we all think about these things from time to time I am pretty certain. We do not know for sure exactly how we will be, but I know Jesus did eat in His perfected spiritual body. I know that the Sons of God in Genesis did marry with daughters of men and create giants. Now, if these Sons of God that were near the throne of God and counseled with Him could have sex, then we do not know for sure that one day we will not have sinless intimate relationships. I did not say we would, but we do not know for sure. If it is there, then God purposed it and does not matter what we think.

We have to remember there are ages ahead of reconciling all living things to God, but then after that we will have many years ahead of us lol. Come on guys, I know there will not be years, but just saying. We cannot even fathom the great things God will allow us to do and even think. Please, let's not be self righteous and think that we will sit around all day and just sing. Come on, God is awesome and amazing. I feel certain there will be endless adventures and exciting times ahead after He has become all in all. I for one will be ready for all He has for us! It will be perfect and there will be no more sin, so do not worry about that .

[mharrell08]

I know that the Sons of God in Genesis did marry with daughters of men and create giants. Now, if these Sons of God that were near the throne of God and counseled with Him could have sex, then we do not know for sure that one day we will not have sinless intimate relationships. I did not say we would, but we do not know for sure. If it is there, then God purposed it and does not matter what we think.

Ireland, this is a myth...it's not true.

Gen 6:4  The Nephilim [These were a human beings but of a different culture] were on the earth in those days, and also afterward, when the sons of God came in to the daughters of men, and they bore children to them. Those were the mighty men who were of old, men of renown. [NASV]

Gen 6:4  The Nephilim were on the earth in those days—and also afterward—when the sons of God went to the daughters of humans and had children by them. They were the heroes of old, men of renown. [NIV]

[Kat]

Hi Ireland,

I hope these discussions are not a question of our own self righteousness and do not believe that is directing our answers. I do not casually study the Scripture, I look for all the Scripture I can find on a subject and then also study the context that the person is speaking from. But there are also commentaries that can lend knowledge of the customs of the times and other facts that help. Now with all this to help, which most everybody has to use, the determining factor in gaining spiritual understanding is the Holy Spirit indwelling and I believe God does/is leading His Elect to greater understanding.

So regarding the "sons of god," we have established many times on this forum and Ray also clearly showed that these were just men, but were called such because they knew and obeyed the true God.

I truly believe it is a carnal desire to hang onto the hope that we will still participant in the physical things we enjoy in this life, such as sex, after resurrection into spiritual beings. That is a lot like what the religions of the world teaches, that in the next life we will have and enjoy our greatest physical pleasures. It certainly is hard to grasp that there truly is an existence far superior to what we know as this physical life and once we enter it all that is physical will have no temptation whatsoever. May we all strive to look beyond the here and now to something that can not even be compared to what we have in this life.

1Co 2:9  But as it is written, "Eye has not seen, nor ear heard," nor has it entered into the heart of man, "the things which God has prepared for those who love Him."
v. 10  But God has revealed them to us by His Spirit; for the Spirit searches all things, yea, the deep things of God.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[Gina]

I truly believe it is a carnal desire to hang onto the hope that we will still participant in the physical things we enjoy in this life, such as sex, after resurrection into spiritual beings. That is a lot like what the religions of the world teaches, that in the next life we will have and enjoy our greatest physical pleasures. It certainly is hard to grasp that there truly is an existence far superior to what we know as this physical life and once we enter it all that is physical will have no temptation whatsoever. May we all strive to look beyond the here and now to something that can not even be compared to what we have in this life.

I agree.  All I know is that Jesus Christ never had sex because He didn't have a wife, and Paul the apostle went without a wife, too, at least that's what I understand him to mean when he said he wished the unmarried and widows could be like him:  1 Corinthians 7:8 (NASB95)  But I say to the unmarried and to widows that it is good for them if they remain even as I.

When Paul was caught up in the third paradise, he came back a changed man to the point that he was more than willing to go without a wife (sex) and without riches, he took beatings and was scorned and imprisoned.  There was something he saw that he wasn't permitted to speak about.  It was something that couldn't hold a candle to the earthly marriage bed -- that's what I gather:

1 Cor. 7   

Principles for Marriage

1 Now concerning the matters about which you wrote: "It is good for a man not to have sexual relations with a woman."

2 But because of the temptation to sexual immorality, each man should have his own wife and each woman her own husband.

...

6 Now as a concession, not a command, I say this.

7 I wish that all were as I myself am. But each has his own gift from God, one of one kind and one of another.

8 To the unmarried and the widows I say that it is good for them to remain single as I am.

. . .

The Unmarried and the Widowed

25 Now concerning the betrothed, I have no command from the Lord, but I give my judgment as one who by the Lord's mercy is trustworthy.

26 I think that in view of the present distress it is good for a person to remain as he is.

27 Are you bound to a wife? Do not seek to be free. Are you free from a wife? Do not seek a wife.

28  But if you do marry, you have not sinned, and if a betrothed woman marries, she has not sinned. Yet those who marry will have worldly troubles, and I would spare you that.

. . .

31 and those who deal with the world as though they had no dealings with it. For the present form of this world is passing away.

32 I want you to be free from anxieties. The unmarried man is anxious about the things of the Lord, how to please the Lord.

33 But the married man is anxious about worldly things, how to please his wife,

34  and his interests are divided. And the unmarried or betrothed woman is anxious about the things of the Lord, how to be holy in body and spirit. But the married woman is anxious about worldly things, how to please her husband.

35  I say this for your own benefit, not to lay any restraint upon yo, but to promote good order and to secure your undivided devotion to the Lord.

...

38  So then he who marries his betrothed does well, and he who refrains from marriage will do even better.

...

40 Yet in my judgment she is happier if she remains as she is. And I think that I too have the Spirit of God. 


I have nothing against marriage, but I've seen too many marriages fail in my personal lifetime.  I'll never be convinced sex is the be all and end all.  I am convinced that Paul saw something in that third paradise and I don't know what it was but it's clear that he had no problem going without to attain to it.   And that's saying A LOT because Paul was a man.